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Thoughts on stacking radiators

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zophar
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2013/01/13 15:40:11 (permalink)
Ok, so I'm working on my new build. In an attempt for as much cooling as I can get, a thought came to my mind. Maybe I could stack a couple of 280mm rads in the front of my case. Here's the area I'm talking about:

 
And here's the radiator I was thinking about http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=59_457_458&products_id=34835. A couple of those with 6 fans would add some cooling ability. So what are the thoughts on doing this? And how would you go about doing bolting the fans and rads together? Also I should add in that I will have a 420mm (3x140mm) rad in the top. So really a single 280mmx60mm thick rad is sufficient. But this thought crossed my mind.


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    Halo_003
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 15:48:22 (permalink)
    I say do it! It would be awesome if you can get RADs on the cheap.

    i7 7700K - ASUS Maximus IX Apex - 16GB G.Skill TridentZ RGB 3466MHz C16 - 5700 XT 50th Anniversary
     
    #2
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 16:06:43 (permalink)
    Halo_003
    I say do it! It would be awesome if you can get RADs on the cheap.


    Thanks for the reply Halo. I'm thinking I will probably do it. Any thoughts on mounting? Also just glanced at yor sale thread, kinda wanting your keyboard. But I don't think paypal agrees with the purchase.


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    buggyruth
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 16:08:22 (permalink)
    You could bend your own brackets if the rads were together and the fans on outsides (front and back in the case. Make 4 out of flat thin 3/4" to 1" wide steal or aluminum bent into a [ shape with mark the holes and drill them slightly over size to allow for a small margin for error run the bolts through fans then bracket into rad holes. Same on the front except through case holes then fan then bracket into rad holes.  Fans/rad/rad/fans/case front. You might have to stagger them slightly to attach you water tubing or flip them, water ports up on one and down on the other. A cool idea!!
    Edit: After a closer look at that those rads your port position is optional that should work nicely.
    Go for it!
    I was considering that on my 140mm rad in the back of mine.
    post edited by buggyruth - 2013/01/13 16:19:19

    +1 If you like my Mods-Rig
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    #4
    Halo_003
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 16:51:22 (permalink)
    One thing to note, you will REALLY need serious fans for this, with a lot of static pressure.
     
    zophar

    Halo_003
    I say do it! It would be awesome if you can get RADs on the cheap.


    Thanks for the reply Halo. I'm thinking I will probably do it. Any thoughts on mounting? Also just glanced at yor sale thread, kinda wanting your keyboard. But I don't think paypal agrees with the purchase.

     
    I know how that is, lol. Shoot me a PM if you have anything to trade that I have listed though, or when/if you have $$$.

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    buggyruth
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 17:24:30 (permalink)
    The manufacturer say's slow to medium speed fans perform extremely well. I would think a push/pull setup would work great.

    +1 If you like my Mods-Rig
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    lehpron
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 18:17:21 (permalink)
    Thermodynamically speaking, a radiator is just another type of heat exchanger where heat from one medium and transfer it to another.  Best case scenario is when the input air is coldest, then the exit liquid is at its lowest.  But stacking up the radiators forces each additional radiator to receive the heated exhaust from the one before it.  So the liquid won't cool as much, but you'll have to do your own experiments to be sure if the difference is worth the space savings of stacking them.
     
    If you stack too many radiators, the last set of radiators isn't radiating any heat from the liquid since the heated air coming in to probably too close to the liquid temperature in.  Once the temperature of both air and liquid inputs are the same, they exist at the same temps, there is no heat transfer except for whatever the radiator absorbs such that it feels hot.

    For Intel processors, 0.122 x TDP = Continuous Amps at 12v [source].  

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    buggyruth
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 18:26:36 (permalink)
    lehpron

    Thermodynamically speaking, a radiator is just another type of heat exchanger where heat from one medium and transfer it to another.  Best case scenario is when the input air is coldest, then the exit liquid is at its lowest.  But stacking up the radiators forces each additional radiator to receive the heated exhaust from the one before it.  So the liquid won't cool as much, but you'll have to do your own experiments to be sure if the difference is worth the space savings of stacking them.

    If you stack too many radiators, the last set of radiators isn't radiating any heat from the liquid since the heated air coming in to probably too close to the liquid temperature in.  Once the temperature of both air and liquid inputs are the same, they exist at the same temps, there is no heat transfer except for whatever the radiator absorbs such that it feels hot.

    I agree they would work better separated but I would still think it will perform better with proper air flow than just one rad.

    +1 If you like my Mods-Rig
    http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=78759
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    #8
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 19:00:38 (permalink)
    My plan goes like this. Water goes into the inner radiator then flows thru the outer radiator. That way the air flowing thru the rads is as cool as possible. And it'll go case-fans-rad-fans-rad-fans. Might get some short screw to use on the middle fans to rads.


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    blood4guts
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 20:44:35 (permalink)
    How are the fittings going to look on that thing?



    #10
    Afterburner
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/13 21:32:19 (permalink)
    One other item of thought.... Ever notice that most Transmission "And" oil coolers are mounted to the front or rear of Radiators on Vehicles?
     
    They are usually Hotter than Engine Coolant is...
     
    At the end of the day, no matter how you have it stacked/staggered... The Ambient Temps (If allowed to run this long mind you) will eventually be within a reasonable level as you will find in the loop.
     
    Swiftech did this for one of their Radiator setups, and it worked just fine.
     
    http://www.swiftech.com/mcr320-qp-stack.aspx
     
    http://skinneelabs.com/swiftech-mcr320-qp-stack/
     
    I recommend "Pull". I found this to work best in the UFO case I was running at the time with those RADs  

     
    #11
    TECH_DaveB
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/14 10:01:49 (permalink)
    OK, I have built a few stacked water setups over the years, including the Swiftech stackables. 
    What Lehpron said is 100% right, however, it really doesn't effect things much in a 2 rad config, maybe 3-4.
    Now,, what afterburner said about the Swiftech running fine is true, however, it doesn't take much to go from fine to really good. 
    First step you either need multiple fans or a STRONG center, even on something like the swiftechs, as you have resistance on both ends. 
    Next, and I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, run the radiators in series NOT parallel.  Yes, I know that the instructions say to run them in parallel, but don't.  One of my loops is with the Swiftech stackable 360's, their instructions didn't seem right but I assembled it on a work bench, and it worked OK.  The rads were warm to the touch (not hot, just warm) and the parts were the temp of a stock air cooler.  I changed the config to enters on one rad, junctions to the other rad and exits the second one.  My CPU temps dropped SUBSTANTIALLY.  I ran a setup like that on a OCd X58, mobo full cover block and SLI and it did really well.  Was it the best loop I had seen, nope, but it did better than many.
    When it was on a test bench I swapped it from serial to parallel about 4 times to make sure and the testing was the same every time, obviously there is always 1-2c degrees variance, but nothing substantial, but there was always a definite gap between serial and parallel.
     
    The rads you linked are pretty thick, but I did not see a rated FPI, if I missed it, please someone let me know, but in general, look at something like AP15's, good balance of pressure/noise.  However if these are high FPIs like GTX Extremes you might want to use like AP29's or AP30's and a fan controller. 
    Wait, these are 140' rads not 120, you can use the 120 adapters, or look over Boredgunner's fan thread for some good 140 options.  Unfortunately, 140 never  REALLY took off, so the selection of good fans is not nearly as good as 120mm fans.
    #12
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/14 10:42:27 (permalink)
    I cant seem to find an official FPI number. I've seen 10FPI from one place and 14FPI from another. So I would really know until I got one. Also these are the fans I have http://m.newegg.com/Produ...umber=N82E16835200067. They are rated at 89 CFM and 2.76mm of h2o. So I think they should do alright on a radiator.


    #13
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/14 16:42:55 (permalink)
    Here's a horrible paint/sketchup drawing of my plan.

     
    It will be some kind of version of that. with the front of the case to the right.


    #14
    buggyruth
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/14 16:55:49 (permalink)
    zophar

    I cant seem to find an official FPI number. I've seen 10FPI from one place and 14FPI from another. So I would really know until I got one. Also these are the fans I have http://m.newegg.com/Produ...umber=N82E16835200067. They are rated at 89 CFM and 2.76mm of h2o. So I think they should do alright on a radiator.

    These are some great fans and quiet, I'm using 4 of them now & you can control them with the MB. fan headers if your MB supports it.
    http://www.newegg.com/Pro...odeId=1&name=140mm
    post edited by buggyruth - 2013/01/14 17:00:03

    +1 If you like my Mods-Rig
    http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=78759
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    zophar
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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/15 09:03:12 (permalink)
    Here is a pic from a friends rig I helped build a long time ago, ran GREAT.  I think this is the basic gist of the sandwich look.  Ignore the plugs, they are ferrous but they were removed, just there to protect from debris.
     

     
    I know this isn't the same rad, but this is basically how I would recommend doing it, worked rather well.  Also those fans should be great for your setup.
     
    #17
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/15 09:16:35 (permalink)
    Thanks for the input everybody. Now I just need to get the cash for the rads, and to find some short M3 screws to to put everything together. I will post pics of everything when I get it done in my Mods Rigs thread.


    #18
    nateman_doo
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/15 10:40:02 (permalink)
    How handy are your fabrication skills?  I wouldn't stack them.  The heat from one will bleed into the next as leph stated.  One thing you can do, is put one in the front, and one on the left and right. Make a baffle that you can use some fans that will pull fresh air into each radiator, then vent it out the top or something. 
    #19
    TECH_DaveB
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/15 12:40:34 (permalink)
    That would be a solid way to do it Nate.  Keep in mind, that i have seen this specific rad brick in action, and while you are correct about hot air, its basically like the old PA 120.3 as it is a dual pass internally, this is done with 2 physical boxes, and I can vouch for this specific setup like this, that it cooled well.
    Would it be better to run the separately, sure, BUT, in many cases without severe modding its almost impossible to get 2 rads this size, internal.
    #20
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/15 12:46:57 (permalink)
    This is the inside of my case as it sits now,

     
    There will be a 420mm rad in the top, and the 280mm on the front. I was just thinking about running the double stacked 280's in the front for a bit more rad surface without doing much cutting. If I need to I could place one 280 on the front and another 280 on the bottom with a little bit of cutting to fit it. But like I said the idea was more rad surface area with minimal modding.


    #21
    nateman_doo
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/16 09:41:57 (permalink)
    zophar

    This is the inside of my case as it sits now,


    There will be a 420mm rad in the top, and the 280mm on the front. I was just thinking about running the double stacked 280's in the front for a bit more rad surface without doing much cutting. If I need to I could place one 280 on the front and another 280 on the bottom with a little bit of cutting to fit it. But like I said the idea was more rad surface area with minimal modding.

    for SHAME?!?  who wants to do the MIN??

    #22
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/16 11:04:01 (permalink)
    nateman_doo
    for SHAME?!?  who wants to do the MIN??


    I did for now. But you may have shamed me into going for it. But if I do that I may see about fitting 2 60mm thick rads down there. Now to get someone to make me a P67 FTW board block and finish their air cooled water blocks...
    post edited by zophar - 2013/01/16 11:10:17


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    nateman_doo
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/17 12:07:04 (permalink)
    My machine isn't too far off in the horizon.  I think I have all but one component left, then to put it all together and pour 800 lbs of concrete.
    #24
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/17 13:13:30 (permalink)
    nateman_doo

    My machine isn't too far off in the horizon.  I think I have all but one component left, then to put it all together and pour 800 lbs of concrete.

    That is good news to hear. Now to use some of the extra time and money we all have to finish it right.


    #25
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2013/01/26 06:01:06 (permalink)
    Well got my 280mm rads a couple days ago and got everything bolted in. It'll still be a while before I can test evverything since I'm still lacking my top rad, PSU, and a handful of fittings. But here it is as it sits now.
     

     

     

     
    Now I need some black stop fittings and to figure out how I want to connect them together. I was thinking about one of these (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=59_346_393_621&products_id=35192)  to put it connect the rads, but can't fing the length or anything.


    #26
    jwach2
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2017/02/08 01:12:43 (permalink)
    How did your stacked radiators end up working? I know this is a very old thread but it is hard to find good first hand information on this.
    #27
    wmmills
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2017/02/08 01:48:10 (permalink)
    +1, I gotta say I'm curious about this one too. I'm going to assume that since he never posted back it must have worked out pretty well.

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    #28
    loveha
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2017/02/09 05:37:44 (permalink)
    May try sending them a PM with the thread so they can respond to it. They were on yesterday, may not have seen it.

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    #29
    zophar
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    Re:Thoughts on stacking radiators 2017/02/09 07:18:34 (permalink)
    Have no fear I am here lol. Wow this thread is old. It worked out fine. I did recently un stack them and put the second radiator off the back of the case. The main though behind stacking them was to keep everything in the case. It does hinder thermal efficiency slightly, but the Alphacool radiators do have a fairly low FPI count which helps. Surprisingly I didn't have too much of a problem with dust getting trapped in the middle of the radiators. I will say that when I separated the setup I did see about 2 or 3 degrees drop in temps. Now 2 or 3 degrees on most systems isn't a big deal unless your going for a max 24/7 OC. But on my system it didn't affect anything.


    #30
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