EVGA

AnsweredEVGA.com 30 Series Queue System

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enewt
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:16:46 (permalink)
tcrennanjr
33.5 hours’ movement on a straggler drop? That puts me 5 days away - if we get 5 more WEEKS like this, I’ll be thrilled! 5 more days, I’d be further over the moon than everyone seems to want to send Dogecoin 😂



Diamond hands on your Dogecoin...?  Going to mars?  The sun is after that...just be sure you bail out before you burn up.  Prisoner's dilemma and all that.

Please use my Associate Code at your checkouts for up to 10% discounts on all your EVGA purchases: VDN2319M4O569J4

30 Series GPUs currently "in stock"
EVGA Queue Summary (North America)

mizzer
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:23:57 (permalink)
xiZeroPoinTix
good stuff Mizzer! only if more members did this lol then the que would really start moving


Thanks man!
 

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anthonyfredsumibcay
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:28:58 (permalink)
enewt
Thursday...proved to be a day of stragglers and overnight hour-acceleration. I’ve got to go make dinner, but here are the limited reports I received today.  Hopefully tomorrow turns up a positive surprise for us all. Have a good night.
 
As of 5:30 pm PT Thursday evening, January 28, this is the status of the North American queues (bolded font represents movement from the morning of Thursday, January 28; italicized parentheticals calculate the length of movement from the prior report):
 
Card                                  SKU                        Auto-Notify Timestamp / (Change from Previous Summary)
 
Ultra
3090 FTW3 Ultra                 3987                       10/11/2020 04:34:42   (33:36:05)   
3090 XC3 Ultra                   3975                       10/05/2020 20:52:00
3080 FTW3 Ultra                 3897                       09/18/2020 23:02:56  
3080 XC3 Ultra                   3885                       09/18/2020 08:26:34 
3070 FTW3 Ultra                 3767                       10/29/2020 10:32:59      (00:59:39) 
3070 XC3 Ultra                   3755                       10/30/2020 14:02:44      (04:45:44) 
3060 Ti FTW3 Ultra             3667                       12/01/2020 07:08:53      (00:00:53)
 
Gaming
3090 FTW3 Gaming             3985                       09/24/2020 12:40:02   
3090 XC3 Gaming               3973                       09/24/2020 00:00:00
3080 FTW3 Gaming             3895                       09/16/2020 00:00:00
3080 XC3 Gaming               3883                       09/16/2020 11:01:20
3070 XC3 Gaming               3753                       10/29/2020 00:00:00
3060 Ti FTW3 Gaming         3665                       12/08/2020 13:44:00 
3060 Ti XC3 Gaming           3663                       12/01/2020 07:16:00  
 
Black
3090 XC3 Black                   3971                       09/24/2020 00:00:00 
3080 XC3 Black                   3881                       09/16/2020 15:14:00  
3070 XC3 Black                   3751                       10/29/2020 06:14:00  
 
Hybrid
3090 FTW3 Ultra Hybrid       3988                       12/10/2020 09:25:27     (00:01:27)
3090 XC3 Ultra Hybrid         3978                       12/08/2020 14:19:07     
3080 FTW3 Ultra Hybrid       3898                       12/16/2020 09:03:34  
3080 XC3 Ultra Hybrid         3888                       12/10/2020 09:08:56    
 
Hydro Copper (Delayed)
3090 FTW 3 Ultra HC           3989                       11/13/2020 00:00:00
3090 XC3 Ultra HC              3979                       11/13/2020 00:00:00
3080 FTW3 Ultra HC            3899                       11/13/2020 00:00:00
3080 XC3 Ultra HC              3889                       11/13/2020 00:00:00
K|NGP|N (Queue sheet)       3998                       12/16/2020 09:51:04  
 
Grandfathered Prices: If you registered (via the auto-notify button) for the North American queues prior to January 10, 2021, and purchase a 30 series card via the queues’ “drops” prior to April 16, 2021, the card’s price should be grandfathered to the 2020 prices.  The price increases for 2021 are effective as of January 11, 2021.  
 
May your remaining wait be shorter than you anticipate; it is already longer than you deserve.
 
Good luck tomorrow! Stay safe!




I thought there were some 3080's drops today?

10G-P5-3897-KR - 9/19/2020 7:48:16 AM PT YES
enewt
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:31:17 (permalink)
anthonyfredsumibcay
 
I thought there were some 3080's drops today?



No trustworthy reports reached me.  I am still looking tonight and might have an update in the morning report, but as of 5:30 today...no reports.  So likely just a straggler or two.

Please use my Associate Code at your checkouts for up to 10% discounts on all your EVGA purchases: VDN2319M4O569J4

30 Series GPUs currently "in stock"
EVGA Queue Summary (North America)

anthonyfredsumibcay
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:33:43 (permalink)
enewt
anthonyfredsumibcay
 
I thought there were some 3080's drops today?



No trustworthy reports reached me.  I am still looking tonight and might have an update in the morning report, but as of 5:30 today...no reports.  So likely just a straggler or two.


sounds good with me , thanks for the quick response ! i appreciate it 

10G-P5-3897-KR - 9/19/2020 7:48:16 AM PT YES
thyironwolf
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 18:43:30 (permalink)
its almost to me am at 9/22 and 9/23 how long u think til it gets to these dates fellas 
dustbunnyck15
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 19:02:38 (permalink)
I am curious if they are keeping track of how many people who put themselves on the list are actually buying cards? I bet the percentage is pretty high 
rlovell11b
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 19:05:10 (permalink)
mizzer
enewt
mizzer
Okay, this is how I drew the name.
 
1. Wrote the names on a list. (there were 7 total)
2. From a deck of cards I took an Ace, 2, 3.... up to 7.
3. Faced down, I mixed up the cards.
4. I interrupted my daughter's MineCraft game and had her pick a card (still faced down).
5. She drew the winner!
 
PMs are going out now.  Thank you for all who played!



Nice.  Next time we should have all of our daughters jump on a mine craft server and the first to build a house to specific specs wins it for her parent.  
 
Congratulations to the winner.



 
Pms are out. :)




Thanks again Mizzer! Appreciate the gesture. 
rcosika
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 19:48:28 (permalink)
@mizzer:  That was an awesome gesture on your part, Friend!!!  Bravo!  The world would be a better place with more people like you! 
 
PS:  I did not enter the contest, but I have total respect for mizzer doing this for the group!   

If you are not willing to learn, no one can help you.
If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.
                                              ~Joseph Addison~
mpineda1110
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 20:13:11 (permalink)
enewt
mpineda1110
Hello all!

Just received my 3080 FTW3 ultra! Few questions
 
Im trying to purchase extended warranty and possibly EAR

When i go to purchase extended warranty: i click the 5 year or 10 year, it just brings me to evga.com and i cant complete my order. How can i get to complete my order?
 
Regarding EAR the $39 2 day plan. Will this follow my card for 10 years if i buy the extended warranty? Is it 39 dollars every RMA (do i have to purchase this plan after every RMA) Also is this the only way i can get cross-ship by purchasing this ?

 
Have you registered the invoice with the EVGA website?  That is one of the items that often hangs folks up.  




yes i have and uploaded the receipt, but its still happening...
_matty
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 20:37:49 (permalink)
It's been a long while since I've been on here.. @mizzer.. what exactly did you do?

Did you help out people? How?

 
LOL @ Below.. I'll update this if I ever get new parts...
|CD2 E8400 @ 4219.1mhz 468.8*9x (1.432v)|
|Max Temp. 60c - -Min. Temps. 35c |Nirvana nv120 Cooling||
|EVGA 680i Version A1|
|V32 Bios|
|1x1Gb Crucial Ballistix pc2-8500 5-5-5-15 (2.1v)Slot 0 @ 2 Dual Channel - Unlinked @ 1200 Mhz @ CR2T|
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_matty
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 20:50:29 (permalink)
What did you actually do? I want to understand.!

 
LOL @ Below.. I'll update this if I ever get new parts...
|CD2 E8400 @ 4219.1mhz 468.8*9x (1.432v)|
|Max Temp. 60c - -Min. Temps. 35c |Nirvana nv120 Cooling||
|EVGA 680i Version A1|
|V32 Bios|
|1x1Gb Crucial Ballistix pc2-8500 5-5-5-15 (2.1v)Slot 0 @ 2 Dual Channel - Unlinked @ 1200 Mhz @ CR2T|
|EVGA 8800GTS @ 648/1620/1998|
|730 Watt Hyper Type-R Modular psu[c
SirKronan
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 21:10:10 (permalink)
Dabadger84
Should be glad we're getting drops more than once a month for a given SKU, it does afterall take about a month for the cards to get here from where they're made from what I understand, between when they leave and when they get here/are processed through port etc.
I think the 3080 FTW3 Ultra every time it drops is likely several hundred units, so it kind of makes sense it's dropping less often - it's a high volume card both for retailers & the site.
 
I'm slap-happy right now, just matched Markuaw1's Strix Kingpin BIOS score despite my average temp being 15C higher:
 
https://www.3dmark.com/pr/826610 https://i.ibb.co/NW5XBZ9/PR-15409-core150-vram1250-noclassifiedtool-allclosed.jpg Not posting the actual image so people that think I'm gloating don't cry.




Why the fark would we cry or hate on you? By being members of EVGA forums we are LITERALLY on the SAME TEAM. 
 
Seriously. If YOU win WE win. Hooray!! Cheers!
 
That aside, congrats!! Freaking awesome, and nice that Kingpin can handle the extra temps and still kick out killer numbers. Kudos!

Current Temp Rig: Modded cheapo HP SFF gaming PC with AMD Ryzen 3600 + Arctic Freezer 7X, 32GB Crucial DDR4, 512GB NVMe SSD, incoming EVGA 3060 12GB. 400w HP Platinum PSU, 43" Asus XG438Q Gaming Monitor
tcrennanjr
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/28 23:06:56 (permalink)
enewt
tcrennanjr
33.5 hours’ movement on a straggler drop? That puts me 5 days away - if we get 5 more WEEKS like this, I’ll be thrilled! 5 more days, I’d be further over the moon than everyone seems to want to send Dogecoin 😂



Diamond hands on your Dogecoin...?  Going to mars?  The sun is after that...just be sure you bail out before you burn up.  Prisoner's dilemma and all that.


Lol well, I did go ahead and invest some. Initially it was for the laughs, but, it’s doing one of those crazy things that extremely high risk stocks do. I only put in some that I can afford to lose. What’s blowing my mind is seeing reports on Twitter of people pulling hundreds of thousands out of their bank accounts to drop into it. I feel bad for them - they’re gonna be the ones burning up if they’re not super careful.
Dabadger84
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 02:13:16 (permalink)
SirKronan
Dabadger84
Should be glad we're getting drops more than once a month for a given SKU, it does afterall take about a month for the cards to get here from where they're made from what I understand, between when they leave and when they get here/are processed through port etc.
I think the 3080 FTW3 Ultra every time it drops is likely several hundred units, so it kind of makes sense it's dropping less often - it's a high volume card both for retailers & the site.
 
I'm slap-happy right now, just matched Markuaw1's Strix Kingpin BIOS score despite my average temp being 15C higher:
 
https://www.3dmark.com/pr/826610 https://i.ibb.co/NW5XBZ9/PR-15409-core150-vram1250-noclassifiedtool-allclosed.jpg Not posting the actual image so people that think I'm gloating don't cry.




Why the fark would we cry or hate on you? By being members of EVGA forums we are LITERALLY on the SAME TEAM. 
 
Seriously. If YOU win WE win. Hooray!! Cheers!
 
That aside, congrats!! Freaking awesome, and nice that Kingpin can handle the extra temps and still kick out killer numbers. Kudos!




There's literally people that tag any posts I make with anything related to visuals or such on the GPU with spam a lot of the time, I think they gave up though. lol Some people just love to hate - I know the vast majority of people here are happy gamers who just want a GPU - that's about the only positive coming out of this ridiculous mess of a GPU launch, community growth & interaction in mostly positive forms.
I ended up getting Top 5 for the 9900K/Single 3090 on the WR Leaderboard, one person above me is a fellow eVGA forum member, one is ToastyPeppers (he has a lot of scores submitted and is #1 for the setup), all of them have CPUs in the 5.3-5.5GHz range, so I have no hope of catching them there... but in raw clocks?  Maybe - I plan to push the GPU again tomorrow, I am kinda staggering it with a day of mostly OC testing etc followed by a day where I only game and don't mess with that at all.
 
Have to say so far this card is overall just plain impressive.  Load temps on the VRMs are lower, vRAM temps are mostly lower (the top vRAM chips run about the same heat level, I need to get heatsinks to attach to the backplate, they help according to some Kingpin users), the 360mm radiator especially now that I've went to push/pull definitely keeps my temps in check (just got out of an ~6hr session in Cyberpunk messing with some mods & such, 404W maximum draw (I had RT stuff off most of that time because it really only does shadows during the day, at night it's a big difference, so I turn it back on, all of that session was day-time stuff), 2040MHz @ 950mV ran 100% stable that entire time - going to push lower & see how low I can go while still running the 2040MHz OC/undervolt I did on the other 3090 that wasn't stable below 1000mV.  Temps for that only got to 47C on the core, hottest VRM was 51.8C, hottest vRAM readout was 61.5C - compared to 50-54C on the 3090 FTW3 Hybrid core, 50s-60s on the VRMs & high 60s/low 70s on the Memory.  I've also done some Cyberpunk sessions at 2115MHz @ 1025mV, that also seems stable.
 
I'm blabbering because I've been up since ~2AM yesterday. lol  Good luck today everyone, I'll be asleep.

ModRigs: https://www.modsrigs.com/detail.aspx?BuildID=42891  
Specs:
5950x @ 4.7GHz 1.3V - Asus Crosshair VIII Hero - eVGA 1200W P2 - 4x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Royal Silver @ 3800 CL14
Gigabyte RTX 4090 Gaming OC w/ Core: 2850MHz @ 1000mV, Mem: +1500MHz - Samsung Odyssey G9 49" Super-Ultrawide 240Hz Monitor
 
mizzer
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 05:10:33 (permalink)
_matty
What did you actually do? I want to understand.!


That’s a long story. :)
It’s my pleasure to give back to a community I’ve been a part of for a long time (gamers and PC enthusiasts).

Gigabyte Aorus Master x570 * AMD 5900X * 32GB G.SKILL Trident 3600 * Arctic Liquid Freezer II 420 * GeForce 4090 FE  * Corsair RM1000x PSU * 1TB Samsung 970 EVO NVMe * 2x 2TB Samsung 870 QVO SSDs * LG OLED48CXPUB * Fractal Design Meshify 2 XL
deadmonkies
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 05:35:30 (permalink)
Good luck today everyone! I know Fridays are often smaller drops, but hopefully some of us will get orders placed today!


12G-P5-3655-KR 2/25/2021 9:34:13 AM PT No
12G-P5-3657-KR 2/25/2021 9:33:00 AM PT Yes
10G-P5-3898-KR 12/16/2020 9:06:54 AM PT No
10G-P5-3897-KR 12/16/2020 5:27:35 AM PT No
retep88
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:01:15 (permalink)
Dabadger84
SirKronan
Dabadger84
Should be glad we're getting drops more than once a month for a given SKU, it does afterall take about a month for the cards to get here from where they're made from what I understand, between when they leave and when they get here/are processed through port etc.
I think the 3080 FTW3 Ultra every time it drops is likely several hundred units, so it kind of makes sense it's dropping less often - it's a high volume card both for retailers & the site.
 
I'm slap-happy right now, just matched Markuaw1's Strix Kingpin BIOS score despite my average temp being 15C higher:
 
https://www.3dmark.com/pr/826610 https://i.ibb.co/NW5XBZ9/PR-15409-core150-vram1250-noclassifiedtool-allclosed.jpg Not posting the actual image so people that think I'm gloating don't cry.




Why the fark would we cry or hate on you? By being members of EVGA forums we are LITERALLY on the SAME TEAM. 
 
Seriously. If YOU win WE win. Hooray!! Cheers!
 
That aside, congrats!! Freaking awesome, and nice that Kingpin can handle the extra temps and still kick out killer numbers. Kudos!




There's literally people that tag any posts I make with anything related to visuals or such on the GPU with spam a lot of the time, I think they gave up though. lol Some people just love to hate - I know the vast majority of people here are happy gamers who just want a GPU - that's about the only positive coming out of this ridiculous mess of a GPU launch, community growth & interaction in mostly positive forms.
I ended up getting Top 5 for the 9900K/Single 3090 on the WR Leaderboard, one person above me is a fellow eVGA forum member, one is ToastyPeppers (he has a lot of scores submitted and is #1 for the setup), all of them have CPUs in the 5.3-5.5GHz range, so I have no hope of catching them there... but in raw clocks?  Maybe - I plan to push the GPU again tomorrow, I am kinda staggering it with a day of mostly OC testing etc followed by a day where I only game and don't mess with that at all.
 
Have to say so far this card is overall just plain impressive.  Load temps on the VRMs are lower, vRAM temps are mostly lower (the top vRAM chips run about the same heat level, I need to get heatsinks to attach to the backplate, they help according to some Kingpin users), the 360mm radiator especially now that I've went to push/pull definitely keeps my temps in check (just got out of an ~6hr session in Cyberpunk messing with some mods & such, 404W maximum draw (I had RT stuff off most of that time because it really only does shadows during the day, at night it's a big difference, so I turn it back on, all of that session was day-time stuff), 2040MHz @ 950mV ran 100% stable that entire time - going to push lower & see how low I can go while still running the 2040MHz OC/undervolt I did on the other 3090 that wasn't stable below 1000mV.  Temps for that only got to 47C on the core, hottest VRM was 51.8C, hottest vRAM readout was 61.5C - compared to 50-54C on the 3090 FTW3 Hybrid core, 50s-60s on the VRMs & high 60s/low 70s on the Memory.  I've also done some Cyberpunk sessions at 2115MHz @ 1025mV, that also seems stable.
 
I'm blabbering because I've been up since ~2AM yesterday. lol  Good luck today everyone, I'll be asleep.




I never though I would enjoy watching someone overclock a card, then JayzTwoCents started doing the overclocking stuff on his card(s) and now I am rooting for both of you.  It doesn't seem like you are going to go the LN2 route, but it still fun hear about what scores you are able to hit.  Of course, I don't have a Kingpin card (nor do I want one) and I could see about other people would be jealous if you got a 'better' card then they did.  
deni3d
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:05:59 (permalink)
i dont think they will be able to keep prices the same for much longer. theres not alot of turnaround from selling tech from what I hear. so it seems unlikely they would be able to manage not raising the card prices with the tariff and now the transportation issues in china. seems unlikely imho. 
Urobulus
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:25:08 (permalink)
Considering that we've been getting pretty much no decent drops for the 3080 for a week now what I just read might actually explain why:
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/l7oxq4/nvidia_geforce_rtx_3080ti_20gb_allegedly_tested/
 
So yeah I guess the TIs are on their way sooner than we think, which would explain why we are getting such pathetic drops from the 3080s since last week (after it was finally starting to pick up speed after like 4 months of no decent progress).
post edited by Urobulus - 2021/01/29 06:27:52
CptT95
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:34:39 (permalink)
Urobulus
Considering that we've been getting pretty much no decent drops for the 3080 for a week now what I just read might actually explain why:
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/l7oxq4/nvidia_geforce_rtx_3080ti_20gb_allegedly_tested/
 
So yeah I guess the TIs are on their way sooner than we think, which would explain why we are getting such pathetic drops from the 3080s since last week (after it was finally starting to pick up speed after like 4 months of no decent progress).

I'll believe it when I see it
Johnny3D
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:34:42 (permalink)
I'm starting to get discouraged... from what I'm seeing in the doc tracking this stuff, there has been no movement at all on the 3895 (3080 FTW3 Gaming)? Is that correct? I see a bunch of the "Ultra" cards have been showing movement but very few if any of the "Gaming" ones. I was feeling pretty good about my chances of getting my notification fairly soon with a 9/22/2020 date, but I'm losing confidence and checking my email, the doc showing where there is movement, or the notification page a couple times a day is getting downright depressing. Is there any shred of hope out there?

10G-P5-3895-KR 9/22/2020 11:05:30 PM PT No
Urobulus
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:43:21 (permalink)
I gave up hope weeks ago: nothing will get better for many, many months to come, and don't believe the ''it will ramp up shortly eventually'' no matter from which side you are hearing it. They've been repeating the same thing for months now and nothing's happening, so don't hold your breath.
philipma1957
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:48:07 (permalink)
The 3070 and the 3090 may do okay.  The rest I am not sure.
deni3d
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:50:00 (permalink)
Johnny3D
I'm starting to get discouraged... from what I'm seeing in the doc tracking this stuff, there has been no movement at all on the 3895 (3080 FTW3 Gaming)? Is that correct? I see a bunch of the "Ultra" cards have been showing movement but very few if any of the "Gaming" ones. I was feeling pretty good about my chances of getting my notification fairly soon with a 9/22/2020 date, but I'm losing confidence and checking my email, the doc showing where there is movement, or the notification page a couple times a day is getting downright depressing. Is there any shred of hope out there?




it seems like most of the normal cards XC3 FTW3 are going to vendors like newegg bestbuy amazon etc.
and most of the specialty cards are on this website
deni3d
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 06:51:01 (permalink)
Urobulus
Considering that we've been getting pretty much no decent drops for the 3080 for a week now what I just read might actually explain why:
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/l7oxq4/nvidia_geforce_rtx_3080ti_20gb_allegedly_tested/
 
So yeah I guess the TIs are on their way sooner than we think, which would explain why we are getting such pathetic drops from the 3080s since last week (after it was finally starting to pick up speed after like 4 months of no decent progress).


i dont see how the 3080 ti would affect the 3080. it probably uses nerfed 3090 silicon.
Johnny3D
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 07:03:08 (permalink)
deni3d
 
it seems like most of the normal cards XC3 FTW3 are going to vendors like newegg bestbuy amazon etc.
and most of the specialty cards are on this website



Isn't that the whole point of the notification queue? That they actually send some out to people who signed up for notifications? EVGA isn't just hanging us longtime loyal customers out to dry... are they?

10G-P5-3895-KR 9/22/2020 11:05:30 PM PT No
CptT95
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 07:13:54 (permalink)
They have contractual obligations to meet
They make far more money selling direct to us then through retail, so they are stuck between a rock and a hard place
deni3d
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 07:19:05 (permalink)
CptT95
They have contractual obligations to meet
They make far more money selling direct to us then through retail, so they are stuck between a rock and a hard place

yeah i realize that. this is one of the first times in my life where i can say here take my money and not have anyone to give it to. lol.
ForSerious
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process 2021/01/29 07:22:10 (permalink)
Hehe it's so true. I saved for an entire year to get enough money to pay for a RTX 2080ti, but by the time I got that much money saved up, the 3080 was almost out. Why not wait a bit longer for something that's better? I had no idea it would be this much longer.
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