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Helpful ReplyMessage about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs

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Rusich
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:06:17 (permalink)
It turns out that the problem was fixed with the capacitors and you can safely buy an EVGA GeForce RTX3080 Ultra FTW3 10 GB OC Enthusiast?

Friends, sorry for my English -)
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:10:14 (permalink)
This is why I always buy from EVGA and always will!
 
Been here since forever now and will never stop giving you guys my money.
 
Even with the messed up launches, those of us actual customers / members realize this was not the companies fault at all.

i9-12900ks @ | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 FTW3 ULTRA
 
 
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:11:06 (permalink)
Avolate
Asus is using all MLCC's for their cards and they sell Tuff at MSRP.    I dont think I am going EVGA anymore. 
I am waiting for now to see what happens with the 3070. Probably gonna get a Tuff version instead of the XC3. I wont get price gouged and they will use better components. 


There's a reason you usually see all MLCC around CPUs yeah.
As for the 3070, I wouldn't hold your hopes up for Asus there since that's a more "entry" range GPU that won't push as high of clock, the current images on the site show no MLCCs, even on the Strix.
But maybe that'll change by time they ship, we'll see. But regardless, I can't see it being an issue with 3070s anyways due to the reduced power delivery needs of GA104 versus the large GA102 chip.
post edited by kakkoii - 2020/09/26 01:13:30
Rusich
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:22:19 (permalink)
EVGA  You are the best, thanks for the truth.
Europe is computeruniverse and Russia is waiting for your cards, with good conductors as never before.

Friends, sorry for my English -)
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Avolate
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:32:57 (permalink)
kakkoii
Avolate
Asus is using all MLCC's for their cards and they sell Tuff at MSRP.    I dont think I am going EVGA anymore. 
I am waiting for now to see what happens with the 3070. Probably gonna get a Tuff version instead of the XC3. I wont get price gouged and they will use better components. 


There's a reason you usually see all MLCC around CPUs yeah.
As for the 3070, I wouldn't hold your hopes up for Asus there since that's a more "entry" range GPU that won't push as high of clock, the current images on the site show no MLCCs, even on the Strix.
But maybe that'll change by time they ship, we'll see. But regardless, I can't see it being an issue with 3070s anyways due to the reduced power delivery needs of GA104 versus the large GA102 chip.




 I saw a teardown of a Strix 3080 and its all MLCCs
kakkoii
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:36:40 (permalink)
Avolate
kakkoii
Avolate
Asus is using all MLCC's for their cards and they sell Tuff at MSRP.    I dont think I am going EVGA anymore. 
I am waiting for now to see what happens with the 3070. Probably gonna get a Tuff version instead of the XC3. I wont get price gouged and they will use better components. 


There's a reason you usually see all MLCC around CPUs yeah.
As for the 3070, I wouldn't hold your hopes up for Asus there since that's a more "entry" range GPU that won't push as high of clock, the current images on the site show no MLCCs, even on the Strix.
But maybe that'll change by time they ship, we'll see. But regardless, I can't see it being an issue with 3070s anyways due to the reduced power delivery needs of GA104 versus the large GA102 chip.




 I saw a teardown of a Strix 3080 and its all MLCCs


I was replying to your comment about the 3070s. Not sure why you're bringing up 3080. The 3080 from Asus are indeed very nice.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 01:56:54 (permalink)
how about on the cheaper base model 3080 and 3090?
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 02:01:24 (permalink)
It's already been said but all MLCC doesn't necessarily means it's better. It's like eating, you don't eat ONLY fat OR sugar OR protein. You need the 3 of them, but you need them to be well balanced so that they can each be used by your body. Same goes for electronic components, they each have their purpose and using too much or too many of them can cause issues or just not work well between them, same your body would. 

Saying that because they used expensive stuff you'll go there doesn't make sense. They could buy expensive stuff and use it poorly / in a non efficient way. It's not only what you buy but how it's assembled and how components interact with each other that counts.

Example : Buying a Quadro and a Threadripper for gaming because it's more expensive and has more cores (for the threadripper), you'll see that on gaming your results will be very bad compared to way cheaper stuff. Because you need to use stuff in a way that makes sense. 
Sixie
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 02:30:21 (permalink)
Why does alot of people call the capacitors POSCAP when they are infact not POSCAPs... rather SPCAPS.
 
but anyway good for EVGA to put this message, and seems like that 2 MLCC set is the fix and has no marginal gains against the ASUS TUF with 6 MLCC, but kudos for asus on that.
 
I just think that the 30xx Series are just really specced on the edge out of the box.


whippyice
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 03:26:03 (permalink)
Sorry guys, long time EVGA user, first time poster.
a lot of high level converstation going on here, i am not that advanced and will leave that debate to my betters but all i want to know is.

i've had a xc3 on order from overclockers.co.uk for over a week now,
from what i can tell it should be fine still ?
Rusich
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 03:43:30 (permalink)
I join Whippyice. I ordered the same on cu https://www.computeruniverse.net/ru/evga-geforce-rtx3080-ultra-ftw3-10-gb-oc-enthusiast-grafikkarte
But I'm more than sure there will be video cards with new capacitors. Why would you knowingly send a bad product that will be returned ..

Friends, sorry for my English -)
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 03:48:01 (permalink)
Rusich
I join Whippyice. I ordered the same on cu
But I'm more than sure there will be video cards with new capacitors. Why would you knowingly send a bad product that will be returned ..


Yeah im sure your right i've always had faith in evga ever since my 8800gt
im not even especially interested in messing about with the clocks, from what i can tell from the statement and the conversations going on its ok to wait on the pre order to arrive,

but this is the first time i've actually got a card at launch and this happens, just made me do a double take you know ?

cool stay the corse then,
YURIIII
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 03:57:08 (permalink)
Digital Flight
If Nvidia uses 4+2 on their card why haven't EVGA cards got the same throughout the range?




This.
 
This tells me, that the amount of MLCC capacitors are used as a tool to artificially bottleneck these cards. There's a clear evidence that capacitors have something to do with stability, since AIB's took the initiative.
 
https://spectrum.ieee.org...-of-polymer-capacitors
 
 
post edited by YURIIII - 2020/09/26 04:18:08
oldcrank
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 04:24:03 (permalink)
Yeah it feels like there might be more going on with all 3080s than just the number/quality of the capacitors. While this appears to be one candidate for potential problems, it's clear that there might be more as others are finding with crashes still on those that have an adequate quantity of mlccs. (FE and TUF)
 
But then, that appears to come with the territory on this next round of bleeding edge GPUs. GN noted that the 3080s they tested are pushing the limit of what the spec will allow, and they're showing marginal increases when OC'd. I think the general message here is that the natural speed that comes with the startup boost and higher frequencies is also pushing the limits a little more than Nvidia expected. Diversifying the capacitors helps to mitigate the issue, but it's still there when you push too hard.
post edited by oldcrank - 2020/09/26 04:33:13
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 04:51:14 (permalink)
Thank goodness for EVGA proactive approach to their products, Thank You Jacob 

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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 04:53:08 (permalink)
oldcrank
Yeah it feels like there might be more going on with all 3080s than just the number/quality of the capacitors. While this appears to be one candidate for potential problems, it's clear that there might be more as others are finding with crashes still on those that have an adequate quantity of mlccs. (FE and TUF)
 


Can you cite your references for this? Not that I'm knocking you or wildly defending EVGA's fix, I just want to know objectively what's going on before I try to spend $800. (lmao, yeah right, I've been trying since launch and all that happens is their website crashes.)

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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:04:42 (permalink)
If you look at the Black 3080 and 3090  the only ones that do not have a picture of the back... Hmm, I wonder what that means.
 

 
Edit: you cant post links?
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:08:27 (permalink)
gutcheck
And this is why I love EVGA. I’ll wait patiently for my 3090... but if you guys wanna send me one.....

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Rusich
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:21:16 (permalink)
EVGA_JacobF
 wrote   -  There were no 6 POSCAP production EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 FTW3 boards shipped.
 
So, EVGA GeForce RTX3080 Ultra FTW3 10 GB OC Enthusiast will only have MLCC ?

Friends, sorry for my English -)
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:36:22 (permalink)
Photoshopped? Jk great job!
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:42:29 (permalink)
Relevant for anyone that wants to see why these are used:
 
https://components101.com/articles/decoupling-capacitor-vs-bypass-capacitors-working-and-applications
 
The use of varying capacitor types and sizes may be the way to go to filter the transients from power switching.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:44:38 (permalink)
A company is attempting to be semi-transparent and communicative, but it's still not enough for some people just looking to feel offended or slighted.  Nice.
 
Selfishly, I kind of hope this situation causes the scalpers/bots to cool off so I can grab a 3090 FTW3. 
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 05:45:52 (permalink)
rougeau
If you look at the Black 3080 and 3090  the only ones that do not have a picture of the back... Hmm, I wonder what that means.
 

 
Edit: you cant post links?


Even though you joined in 2007, the forum software requires a minimum post count before you can post links.

For now, remove the period in the website.com we can put it back.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:02:06 (permalink)
Maxidrom2002
U guys knew about this issue weeks, if not months ago...and you are all coming out of the closet now...ONLY BECAUSE OF INDEPENDENT REPORTING. This is not how u build trust...
you’re really off your rocking horse. Issues happen and are caught all the time in QA.

We should all be relieved that no crappy 3080 cards made it to customers. That’s the news to celebrate here.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:05:05 (permalink)
Rusich
EVGA_JacobF
 wrote   -  There were no 6 POSCAP production EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 FTW3 boards shipped.
 
So, EVGA GeForce RTX3080 Ultra FTW3 10 GB OC Enthusiast will only have MLCC ?
No, it’s literally in his statement. They’re now using 4+2, which is a move away from the all 6.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:06:18 (permalink)
serious is the fact  that EVGA in his statement dunno difference form poscap and sp-cap  : <<''During our mass production QC testing we discovered a full 6 POSCAPs solution cannot pass the real world applications testing''>>
 
this is poscap:

 
and this is a sp-cap used in all the vgas circa:

 
And it's not the same tipe of cap...
 
LOL
 
No one 3000 series mount a POSCAP....at least not behind the DIE.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:09:52 (permalink)
https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/products/capacitors/polymer-capacitors/poscap
 
 
https://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/products/capacitors/polymer-capacitors/sp-cap
 
 
it's incredible...
 
One is Conductive Polymer Tantalum Solid Capacitors (POSCAP)
 
the other is 
 
Conductive Polymer Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors (SP-Cap)
 
 No one considers or notices that they are talking about the wrong subject.
post edited by roccale - 2020/09/26 06:14:04
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:22:22 (permalink)
USALion
oldcrank
Yeah it feels like there might be more going on with all 3080s than just the number/quality of the capacitors. While this appears to be one candidate for potential problems, it's clear that there might be more as others are finding with crashes still on those that have an adequate quantity of mlccs. (FE and TUF)
 


Can you cite your references for this? Not that I'm knocking you or wildly defending EVGA's fix, I just want to know objectively what's going on before I try to spend $800. (lmao, yeah right, I've been trying since launch and all that happens is their website crashes.)




Sorry, I was actually referencing Sanctuary's post earlier who cited HardwareUnboxed, but I clearly suck at quoting. :)
 
Here's the info in question:
Sanctuary



 
I don't know that we have a large enough sample size yet to really know what all the problems are, it's just data at this point. For all we know the FE and TUF crashing on their side was due to unstable overclocking. But I'm hoping we'll know more in the coming weeks as more testing is done. And just to clarify, none of this has put me off of an AIB card. I'll be upping my EVGA1070 to an EVGA3080 once the volumes level out without hesitation.
post edited by oldcrank - 2020/09/26 08:58:11
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:40:47 (permalink)
Once you know a manufacturer has addressed the noise issue with MLCC caps, it’s really hard to know which is the better solution, 1 MLCC station, 2, or all the way to 6. Those capacitors don’t live in a vacuum. They are part of that entire circuit which includes the on-board power supply, many other components, the GPU, and even the circuit board itself. You can’t tell by visual inspection if one arrangement is better than another. It takes proper test equipment to really know.
 
As was pointed out, there are lots of different kinds of dielectrics and many more capacitance values. MLCC capacitors that small don’t have markings on them either. Once soldered down, about all you can say is it’s a cap and even that can be hard sometimes. The range of values and electrolytes/composition means boards that look identical can actually be very different. The poly caps and the MLCC caps are each good for certain frequency ranges and stored charge but it is important to remember other components and structures are also involved, and these are systems.
 
So without proper test equipment, our only handle on the situation is how well the board clocks. If EVGA guarantees a clock rate and the board hits it, it’s good. That’s the same for any manufacturer. With smaller and smaller transistors, we are moving into the regime where we don’t get to push the limits as much as we used to.
 
Without test equipment to see the actual noise and ripple, we have no way to say one board’s compliment of MLCC caps is better than a different model or manufacturer’s board. Again, these are systems and these MLCC and poly caps are part of that. The ASUS board may have more trouble with high frequency noise and need all those MLCC caps and not need the polys. The EVGA boards may be better off with a few polys in the mix to smooth the ripple. Both are probably looking for the steadiest, cleanest, and most stable power rails under the GPU.
 
And cost probably also factors in. Nobody likes to replace one component with 10. Ignoring actual component cost differences (probably a few pennies per board max) placing all those caps takes time and slows production lines, increases the chances of defects, etc. We have no handle on how important that is to manufacture decisions but it could be a complicating factor.
 
Just in general, as IC feature size gets smaller, voltages get more critical and can’t be boosted or lowered near as much as they used to. For those wanting to overclock, get the best regulated and filtered power supply you can and don’t run it at its limit. Clean power gets critical at the lower voltages these chips operate at and just helps the on-board power supplies and filtering.
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/09/26 06:43:30 (permalink)
This is exactly why I always only buy EVGA

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