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Helpful ReplyHot!Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs

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Flonkam
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/04 04:31:35 (permalink)
Axejess
That just have to do with the modern times as well people want to earn money that's the unfortunately truth of capitalism...

 
Come oooon, man, lol! People wanting to earn money is the truth of reality, not capitalism. 'Capitalism' is literally freedom. That's what it is. It's the freedom of individuals to trade with each other as they see fit, in an open market.
 
When people are free, there is of course the possibility of people trying to get away with bad things. That's what courts are for. Blaming anything on capitalism itself is like blaming a car accident on "getting out of bed". Sure, staying in bed all day would drastically reduce the likelihood of bad things from happening to you, but that's not much of a life, is it?
 
I'm not suggesting that you yourself are anti-capitalist/anti-freedom--I'm just reminding everyone that freedom is a good thing, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either sorely misled (most people), or is lying to you (politicians, media, etc.).
 
Axejess
Just remember it's only a videocard there are much more things in the world atm (corona).


Now that's good advice!
Axejess
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/04 05:25:34 (permalink)
Flonkam
Axejess
That just have to do with the modern times as well people want to earn money that's the unfortunately truth of capitalism...

 
Come oooon, man, lol! People wanting to earn money is the truth of reality, not capitalism. 'Capitalism' is literally freedom. That's what it is. It's the freedom of individuals to trade with each other as they see fit, in an open market.
 
When people are free, there is of course the possibility of people trying to get away with bad things. That's what courts are for. Blaming anything on capitalism itself is like blaming a car accident on "getting out of bed". Sure, staying in bed all day would drastically reduce the likelihood of bad things from happening to you, but that's not much of a life, is it?
 
I'm not suggesting that you yourself are anti-capitalist/anti-freedom--I'm just reminding everyone that freedom is a good thing, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either sorely misled (most people), or is lying to you (politicians, media, etc.).
 
Axejess
Just remember it's only a videocard there are much more things in the world atm (corona).


Now that's good advice!


haha nah i am not a anti captalism.  And yeah maybe i should have word it better. It's just if you can earn money in a way by buying out all the stock and reselling it for more. People that can earn money that way will always find some way to do that. It's not only on this launch they do it on iphones/concerts tickets/other prium items that people want for example as well.
They will always find a way around implemented systems to earn cash. That's just a fact. So nah I am not again capatalism it would only stop if people don't pay more than the normal prices but yeah people who are so excited or can't wait will always be ready to pay some more. And as long that's the case we will always have scalpers.
 
 
 


KickAssCop
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/05 02:57:33 (permalink)
So was this a real issue. Seemed to me EVGA admitted but then the world moved on and said, no it wasn't an issue. Bad drivers.

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Frammish
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/05 07:03:31 (permalink)
The new drivers shave the peaks off performance to keep cards from falling over with a CTD.
 
It wasn’t some divide by zero error, memory leak, or other programming issue causing the CTDs. They just can’t all run flat out. Nvidia “fixed” that by dialing back peak power which limits clocks.
 
Link below of a thorough discussion of what is believed to be going on. It’s complex. Power supply protections kicking in due to the rapid current changes also seem to be an issue but Igor blames circuit design and component choices in the power circuits too. The Nvidia driver update “fixes” the CTD issue for the most part but lots of buyers keep reporting CTDs even after the driver update. It looks like a hardware issue mostly, but not entirely, mitigated by the driver update that very slightly decreases performance further below Nvidia’s own missed targets.
 
Nvidia’s rush to beat AMD shot their own design in the foot. Just my own guess but I don’t see Nvidia or AIBs ever admitting this crop of cards is “defective“. I doubt we’ll see new SKUs, recalls, or anything else. Manufacturers will just eat whatever cards get returned under warranty but these issues also seem to be dependent on software running and how cards get loaded. Users may not experience CTDs until they get some new game. Anyone buying these cards would do well to go with companies that stand behind their products with long warranties - like EVGA.
 
My bet is ”Ti” versions will fix the power delivery issues and hit the target 2.1GHz targets much more easily and reliably. I just wish they were coming sooner but we know they are coming. AIBs have leaked a number of clues and inadvertent confirmations of Ti boards on the way. Might be a while, though. Lots of costs to be recovered from this launch.
 
https://www.igorslab.de/en/wonder-how-invidia-the-crashes-of-the-force-rtx-3080-andrtx-3090-will-be-removed-and-still-will-be-removed-even-from-the-power-supplies-analysis/
 
Edit - As an aside, we saw similar behavior in CPUs in a cluster where I used to work. The manufacturer ended up having to build big, expensive, electrolytic capacitor trays and put them on the busses to help smooth out the spikes and drops that were crashing nodes. it was even more expensive for them because they had to include charge and discharge circuitry because the cap networks needed to fix the issues were so big even though voltages were low. I’ve seen it personally. Chips that can load and unload fast can throw out tons of noise and confuse power supply regulation. Igor’s discussion makes complete sense to me. I can’t swear he is correct but it fits.
post edited by Frammish - 2020/10/05 07:14:58
KickAssCop
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/05 07:50:07 (permalink)
Thanks for details. Frammish. 

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Frammish
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/05 08:12:23 (permalink)
And, if Igor did nail the diagnosis, there are a number of other issues that come up.
 
What we saw on our system was definitely code dependent. (Reminder - not talking about GPU. This was the CPU load causing what we saw. No GPUs at all in our system.) Some code could reliably trigger crashes. Other codes didn’t. Power demands were very characteristic of the codes running. If it is a similar issue, some games should (with the old driver, or those cards that still crash occasionally even with the new driver) trigger CTDs on some games and not on others. Could be anything between reliably and blue moon. All depends on the whole system.
 
If it is a power issue complicating things as Igor suggests, expect to see new lines of power supplies that are “3000 series rated” or some such. We have moved into “server-rated” territory and supplies will need to be even beefier and faster reacting. The video supply will need to be designed specifically for the task but Nvidia will need to do a much better job too and test thoroughly. Igor noted a paradox in that the cheaper supply ran the card better because it didn’t protect as well. That also fits. We’ll see heavier and shorter cables to the video cards so supplies designed for these things can react fast.
 
I have no idea if Nvidia already does this but maybe there could even be clock skew intentionally to different parts of the chip so not all transistors are switching state at the same time. Software may need to be written differently, if possible, so that current hungry code doesn’t light up the chip all at once.
 
I have a hunch engineers are already looking deep into the things Igor found. I should also say this is based on a different situation and it could just be coincidence. But I bet it’s not.
bkhan530
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/06 11:41:36 (permalink)
Frammish
The new drivers shave the peaks off performance to keep cards from falling over with a CTD.
 
It wasn’t some divide by zero error, memory leak, or other programming issue causing the CTDs. They just can’t all run flat out. Nvidia “fixed” that by dialing back peak power which limits clocks.
 
Link below of a thorough discussion of what is believed to be going on. It’s complex. Power supply protections kicking in due to the rapid current changes also seem to be an issue but Igor blames circuit design and component choices in the power circuits too. The Nvidia driver update “fixes” the CTD issue for the most part but lots of buyers keep reporting CTDs even after the driver update. It looks like a hardware issue mostly, but not entirely, mitigated by the driver update that very slightly decreases performance further below Nvidia’s own missed targets.
 
Nvidia’s rush to beat AMD shot their own design in the foot. Just my own guess but I don’t see Nvidia or AIBs ever admitting this crop of cards is “defective“. I doubt we’ll see new SKUs, recalls, or anything else. Manufacturers will just eat whatever cards get returned under warranty but these issues also seem to be dependent on software running and how cards get loaded. Users may not experience CTDs until they get some new game. Anyone buying these cards would do well to go with companies that stand behind their products with long warranties - like EVGA.
 
My bet is ”Ti” versions will fix the power delivery issues and hit the target 2.1GHz targets much more easily and reliably. I just wish they were coming sooner but we know they are coming. AIBs have leaked a number of clues and inadvertent confirmations of Ti boards on the way. Might be a while, though. Lots of costs to be recovered from this launch.
 
https://www.igorslab.de/en/wonder-how-invidia-the-crashes-of-the-force-rtx-3080-andrtx-3090-will-be-removed-and-still-will-be-removed-even-from-the-power-supplies-analysis/
 
Edit - As an aside, we saw similar behavior in CPUs in a cluster where I used to work. The manufacturer ended up having to build big, expensive, electrolytic capacitor trays and put them on the busses to help smooth out the spikes and drops that were crashing nodes. it was even more expensive for them because they had to include charge and discharge circuitry because the cap networks needed to fix the issues were so big even though voltages were low. I’ve seen it personally. Chips that can load and unload fast can throw out tons of noise and confuse power supply regulation. Igor’s discussion makes complete sense to me. I can’t swear he is correct but it fits.




Unless there's more CUDA cores, it wouldn't be a Ti but rather just a Super with more VRAM and higher clock which we all already expect. Obviously as revisions go, the silicon binning gets better and you end up with higher clocks with newer releases, this has been a thing ever since GPUs were invented so I don't consider this some big revelation. In addition, I don't think NVIDIA jumped the gun on anything, it's not like Ampere was designed last minute because NVIDIA got wind of RDNA 2, this thing has likely been worked on for years. What probably did change recently was going from TSMC to Samsung which might have required a bit of retooling and subsequently power delivery changes because of the differences in the process. Who knows, but I don't think it's as simple as blaming it on Sp-caps and thinking MLCC will solve everything. I would put money on an FTW with a 4 + 2 layout doing just as good as Strix with it's all MLC layout in overclocking and stability. 
dominic2189
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/06 17:57:58 (permalink)
Flonkam
Axejess
That just have to do with the modern times as well people want to earn money that's the unfortunately truth of capitalism...

 
Come oooon, man, lol! People wanting to earn money is the truth of reality, not capitalism. 'Capitalism' is literally freedom. That's what it is. It's the freedom of individuals to trade with each other as they see fit, in an open market.
 
When people are free, there is of course the possibility of people trying to get away with bad things. That's what courts are for. Blaming anything on capitalism itself is like blaming a car accident on "getting out of bed". Sure, staying in bed all day would drastically reduce the likelihood of bad things from happening to you, but that's not much of a life, is it?
 
I'm not suggesting that you yourself are anti-capitalist/anti-freedom--I'm just reminding everyone that freedom is a good thing, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either sorely misled (most people), or is lying to you (politicians, media, etc.).
 

Amen
Flonkam
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2020/10/06 23:10:57 (permalink)
bkhan530
Unless there's more CUDA cores, it wouldn't be a Ti but rather just a Super with more VRAM and higher clock which we all already expect.



I would go further and say that, considering the performance increase between 3080 & 3090 is perhaps 15% at best, there's no room for a Ti between the 3080 and 3090 that would be anything but a joke.
 
Another thought is that it seems like a 20GB 3080--especially if it has a bit higher performance--would drastically reduce the market for the 3090. In fact, that has me fearing that the price of a 20GB 3080 is going to be far above anything that makes sense.
DavesMan
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Re: Message about EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 POSCAPs 2021/01/01 14:34:20 (permalink)
pbmpharmacist
Why not ALL MLCC like Asus though?


MLCC produce that whistle sound found on most ASUS Ampere cards. The sound is mostly from MLCC not from coil whine. That's why EVGA 3080/3090 are (almost) silent.


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