rain2_usa

Vipilicious

rain2_usa

dante`afk
 honestly, I rather feel safer/better with 6x MLCC than mixed poscaps+mlcc ...

Are you an electrical engineer to understand the need for MLCC?  Serious question as I'd like to know why 6 MLCC would be preferred.  I have very little knowledge of electrical components and their interoperability among other components.  I just know that EVGA tested all their cards and works as intended with GPU Boost (they better as it's Advertised as a feature). 

I asked at IgorsLab regarding this topic:
 
Result/Anwser: "Caps are there on the one hand to filter the high frequency components and on the other hand as a buffer to prevent voltage drops. SP or POS CAPs are more shock-resistant and temperature-stable, but fail because of the high frequencies. The FE's 4 + 2 mix is perfect." (Source IgorsLab Forum)

Thanks for the info.  It'd be interesting to see how the Asus performs then.  Maybe Steve from GN will put it through the paces to find out.  

I opened the box of the pandora @ IgorsLab .... (now its getting technical)
 
"The statement "POSCAPS are great at thermal stability, MLCCs are not. there is also a voltage issue as frequency increases. It appears the 4+20 is the best option, even the nvidia design uses that setup." is definitely not entirely correct.
 
In the case of MLCC, this strongly depends on the dielectric used:
- Class1: C0G (and meanwhile U2J) is very temperature stable (almost linear) but has a low capacity
- Class2: X7R, X5R is much more dependent on temperature than Class1, but has a greater capacity with the same size or voltage
- Class3: e.g. Y5V is much more temperature-dependent and has even more capacity for the same size or voltage.
Most MLCC also have a high dielectric strength (compared to the nominal voltage), even if this naturally has an influence on the capacitance. In addition, the polarity cannot be reversed. Usually, the ESR is also quite low (rule of thumb for ESR: the less the good. Especially at higher frequencies).
Edit2: On top of that, MLCCs from Class2 or higher at the latest have piezoelectric properties that make them unpopular in the audio sector.
 
To the best of my knowledge, POS CAPs have a high degree of constancy over the temperature range on the capacitive side. For this, a corresponding derating must be planned for the voltage and attention must be paid to the polarity. In addition, no polymer tantalum has been encountered with the ESR of which it could be compared with the better MLCC. But you get a lot of capacity in a small space."
 
Result: We have to wait for tests if a 6 MLCC is better then a 2 MLCC + 4 POS Caps. Due to the fact that until now no issues are known from Nvidias FE's (using 2 + 4). This seems to be enough. If there is an advantage in more than 2 MLCC ... we will see. 

rain2_usa

jayrwar

Vipilicious

I asked at IgorsLab regarding this topic:

Result/Anwser: "Caps are there on the one hand to filter the high frequency components and on the other hand as a buffer to prevent voltage drops. SP or POS CAPs are more shock-resistant and temperature-stable, but fail because of the high frequencies. The FE's 4 + 2 mix is perfect." (Source IgorsLab Forum)

Link, please?

See if that semi-link works.  Direct from Igor himself. 
www.igorslab.de/community/threads/was-wirklich-hinter-den-abstürzen-und-instabilitäten-der-geforce-rtx-3080-und-rtx-3090-stecken-könnte-investigativ.3217/page-7#post-75137

Until someone reviews an FTW3 Ultra 3080 and I see the clocks, temps, and fan speeds won't commit to it.

Well, I knew it wasn't a driver issue. Sure didn't sound like it.

Will the King Pin be the same setup as the FTW3 or will you be using all MLCC's like Asus?

Vipilicious
 
I opened the box of the pandora @ IgorsLab .... (now its getting technical)
 
"The statement "POSCAPS are great at thermal stability, MLCCs are not. there is also a voltage issue as frequency increases. It appears the 4+20 is the best option, even the nvidia design uses that setup." is definitely not entirely correct.
 
In the case of MLCC, this strongly depends on the dielectric used:
- Class1: C0G (and meanwhile U2J) is very temperature stable (almost linear) but has a low capacity
- Class2: X7R, X5R is much more dependent on temperature than Class1, but has a greater capacity with the same size or voltage
- Class3: e.g. Y5V is much more temperature-dependent and has even more capacity for the same size or voltage.
Most MLCC also have a high dielectric strength (compared to the nominal voltage), even if this naturally has an influence on the capacitance. In addition, the polarity cannot be reversed. Usually, the ESR is also quite low (rule of thumb for ESR: the less the good. Especially at higher frequencies).
Edit2: On top of that, MLCCs from Class2 or higher at the latest have piezoelectric properties that make them unpopular in the audio sector.
 
To the best of my knowledge, POS CAPs have a high degree of constancy over the temperature range on the capacitive side. For this, a corresponding derating must be planned for the voltage and attention must be paid to the polarity. In addition, no polymer tantalum has been encountered with the ESR of which it could be compared with the better MLCC. But you get a lot of capacity in a small space."
 
Result: We have to wait for tests if a 6 MLCC is better then a 2 MLCC + 4 POS Caps. Due to the fact that until now no issues are known from Nvidias FE's (using 2 + 4). This seems to be enough. If there is an advantage in more than 2 MLCC ... we will see. 

lol.  So we're back to waiting for GN to do the tests as I believe he has the equipment to properly test this.  Maybe others have the equipment as well, but I don't know them offhand. 

jayrwar

rain2_usa

jayrwar

Vipilicious

I asked at IgorsLab regarding this topic:

Result/Anwser: "Caps are there on the one hand to filter the high frequency components and on the other hand as a buffer to prevent voltage drops. SP or POS CAPs are more shock-resistant and temperature-stable, but fail because of the high frequencies. The FE's 4 + 2 mix is perfect." (Source IgorsLab Forum)

Link, please?

See if that semi-link works.  Direct from Igor himself. 
www.igorslab.de/community/threads/was-wirklich-hinter-den-abstürzen-und-instabilitäten-der-geforce-rtx-3080-und-rtx-3090-stecken-könnte-investigativ.3217/page-7#post-75137

Until someone reviews an FTW3 Ultra 3080 and I see the clocks, temps, and fan speeds won't commit to it.

Gamers nexus has already done an OC video with the 6 poscap ftw3 and it was the best overclocker out of the 3 cards he had

so how does this work for someone who got the xc3 ultra gaming day one are the cards good or would they need to be sent back?
 

jayrwar

rain2_usa

jayrwar

Vipilicious

I asked at IgorsLab regarding this topic:

Result/Anwser: "Caps are there on the one hand to filter the high frequency components and on the other hand as a buffer to prevent voltage drops. SP or POS CAPs are more shock-resistant and temperature-stable, but fail because of the high frequencies. The FE's 4 + 2 mix is perfect." (Source IgorsLab Forum)

Link, please?

See if that semi-link works.  Direct from Igor himself. 
www.igorslab.de/community/threads/was-wirklich-hinter-den-abstürzen-und-instabilitäten-der-geforce-rtx-3080-und-rtx-3090-stecken-könnte-investigativ.3217/page-7#post-75137

Until someone reviews an FTW3 Ultra 3080 and I see the clocks, temps, and fan speeds won't commit to it.

GamersNexus did OC an FTW3 to something like 2.3Ghz. That was ofc on LN2 so temps weren't an issue. But his had 6 POSCAPS and no MLCC, as it was preproduction unit. On his stream earlier today he showed another FTW3 with this time 4 POSCAPS and 2 MLCC while running on air with 2 additional fans blowing air to / from the card, he got some pretty substantial scores. Ofc we'll need to wait a full testing with temps, all sorts of games / benchmarks etc but so far, it doesn't seem like regular customers should have ANY issues with FTW3 especially since it seems to apply the same numbers of components than the FE. 

xhdreactionzx

jayrwar

rain2_usa

jayrwar

Vipilicious

I asked at IgorsLab regarding this topic:

Result/Anwser: "Caps are there on the one hand to filter the high frequency components and on the other hand as a buffer to prevent voltage drops. SP or POS CAPs are more shock-resistant and temperature-stable, but fail because of the high frequencies. The FE's 4 + 2 mix is perfect." (Source IgorsLab Forum)

Link, please?

See if that semi-link works.  Direct from Igor himself. 
www.igorslab.de/community/threads/was-wirklich-hinter-den-abstürzen-und-instabilitäten-der-geforce-rtx-3080-und-rtx-3090-stecken-könnte-investigativ.3217/page-7#post-75137

Until someone reviews an FTW3 Ultra 3080 and I see the clocks, temps, and fan speeds won't commit to it.

Gamers nexus has already done an OC video with the 6 poscap ftw3 and it was the best overclocker out of the 3 cards he had

With LN (Liquid Nitrogen)?? I need a regular user review with the standard things like OC, temps, benchmarks, fan noise and speed. If it does 2Ghz stable for hours with reasonable temps and fan noise I'll take it.

ghastlyone
Clear your browser cookies and site info. I had to do this on Firefox and the site started loading for me again. Only happened right at launch for some reason.

Thank you! Yes, it looks like EVGA changed its authe cookies and broke something. Worked after I nuked the EVGA cookies. Had to do the same on all my devices/systems. 
 

Mattler
I feel like EVGA kinda cheaped out. ASUS did things right. 

 
And yet, if you look at the original Newegg photos, the ASUS 3080 TUF and Strix both are shown with 6 poscaps too.  The issue appears to have blindsided practically every single AIB. 

kougar

ghastlyone
Clear your browser cookies and site info. I had to do this on Firefox and the site started loading for me again. Only happened right at launch for some reason.

Thank you! Yes, it looks like EVGA changed its authe cookies and broke something. Worked after I nuked the EVGA cookies. Had to do the same on all my devices/systems. 
 

Mattler
I feel like EVGA kinda cheaped out. ASUS did things right. 

 
And yet, if you look at the original Newegg photos, the ASUS 3080 TUF and Strix both are shown with 6 poscaps too.  The issue appears to have blindsided practically every single AIB. 

Asus have screwed up in the past so they learned their lesson well.

Gotta love EVGA. Awesome job.

Asus is using all MLCC's for their cards and they sell Tuff at MSRP.    I dont think I am going EVGA anymore. 
 
 I am waiting for now to see what happens with the 3070.   Probably gonna get a Tuff version instead of the XC3.    I wont get price gouged and they will use better components. 

I'm glad Jacob was able to clear this up for us. Makes me much happier to know that these cards are built to last. 

Avolate
Asus is using all MLCC's for their cards and they sell Tuff at MSRP.    I dont think I am going EVGA anymore. 
 
 I am waiting for now to see what happens with the 3070.   Probably gonna get a Tuff version instead of the XC3.    I wont get price gouged and they will use better components. 

All MLCCs aren't "better". They have their own issues that they have to balance out.