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Hot!EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022)

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Nereus
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/14 18:11:23 (permalink)

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Gorifidel
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/14 23:46:29 (permalink)
Guys how can I as a new member use the notify me system? I did not find any button to do this on the site (mobile)
enewt
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 00:13:29 (permalink)
Gorifidel
Guys how can I as a new member use the notify me system? I did not find any button to do this on the site (mobile)



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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 03:24:27 (permalink)
Nereus
 
Info on 3090 Ti production pause.. (link)
 
https://www.techradar.com/news/rtx-3090-ti-production-paused-over-bios-and-hardware-snags-and-thats-fine-by-us
 



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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 05:48:18 (permalink)
Any chance for notifications soon? Europe
08G-P5-3785-KL 8/3/2021 4:31:32 PM PT No True

08G-P5-3663-KL 2/14/2021 8:58:42 AM PT No True
philipma1957
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 06:03:43 (permalink)
I am not looking to join the queue until I settle my 2.0 queue issue.  Ie I either get the 3090 hybrid or they stop making it.
 
But I do want to know is there a queue list 3.0 somewhere?
Silent321
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 06:18:45 (permalink)
Well the thing is I singed up for RTX 3000* queue at the beginning at the end of 2019, how is it possible that some ppl are writting they have got 3 cards from queue when I havent even been called up...
Im not criticizing EVGA, they are the only ones doing this and should be praised for it.
Luckly on the ETH crash coming in =)
 
tizz78
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 06:30:14 (permalink)
GTXJackBauer
Nereus
 
Info on 3090 Ti production pause.. (link)
 
https://www.techradar.com/news/rtx-3090-ti-production-paused-over-bios-and-hardware-snags-and-thats-fine-by-us
 



Better to iron things out now than have issues in the customer's hands.


Hopefully this is the case on the delay. I think I'd read somewhere that the chips were in shorter supply than before for these next models, I think one article mentioned Samsung if memory serves. Either that or maybe they're trying to build an initial stock before releasing them into the wild...

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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 06:54:48 (permalink)
I got no notification being an elite member... I hope they revise certain criteria because it is truly tough that elite members are suppose to be notified 24 hours before and no such notification was sent.
tizz78
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 06:57:44 (permalink)
Jarredsingh
I got no notification being an elite member... I hope they revise certain criteria because it is truly tough that elite members are suppose to be notified 24 hours before and no such notification was sent.

There were no notifications from what I've heard/read. Follow JacobF and EVGA on twitter, as that's been said to be the fastest outlet for release information if memory serves..
 
Edit: Found this a few pages back also.
EVGATech_LeeM
starb0y
vivithemage
Is it possible they will email ELITE members when new "drops" are available to sign up? 


we should all have received an email for the 3080 12gb it seems but not many did, I didn't!


The email you are referring to was our standard newsletter, which we will usually send out after a product launches.  There were no EVGA Elite emails announcing the product, and especially no emails announcing the product in advance.


post edited by tizz78 - 2022/01/15 07:11:55

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Nereus
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 08:04:49 (permalink)
Jarredsingh
I got no notification being an elite member... I hope they revise certain criteria because it is truly tough that elite members are suppose to be notified 24 hours before and no such notification was sent.

Nobody did for the 3080 12GB, it's only for new lines afaik. 3080 is not a new line. 3050 is. Of course the 'rules' may have changed.
 
 

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Airwolf24
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 09:10:46 (permalink)
I did for the 3080 12GB, I’m gonna do benchmarks once I received the card

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starb0y
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 10:51:13 (permalink)
LLLEFTERIS
tectonika
Pretty bad that the queue openned midnight for europe and I didnt have the chance to get in the waiting line. The gpu prices are still untouchable atm

And to you be able to enter the queue what is the benefit since they do not intend to give cards to Europe.




If they keep opening the queue unaccounced, only people with monitors and BOTS will know and enter whilst all their actual customers that want to upgrade will be left waiting. pathetic.
They have a "fair" system, they have loads of authentication processes, why not announce a date/time, advise people the queue will be open for say 30min-1h and then close it.
 
GTXJackBauer
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 13:49:38 (permalink)
starb0y
 
 
If they keep opening the queue unaccounced, only people with monitors and BOTS will know and enter whilst all their actual customers that want to upgrade will be left waiting. pathetic.
They have a "fair" system, they have loads of authentication processes, why not announce a date/time, advise people the queue will be open for say 30min-1h and then close it.
 

It a double edge sword.  If they do announce, the world's boters will know about it to reprogram their bots and better position themselves.

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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 14:50:53 (permalink)
GTXJackBauer
starb0y
 
 
If they keep opening the queue unaccounced, only people with monitors and BOTS will know and enter whilst all their actual customers that want to upgrade will be left waiting. pathetic.
They have a "fair" system, they have loads of authentication processes, why not announce a date/time, advise people the queue will be open for say 30min-1h and then close it.
 

It a double edge sword.  If they do announce, the world's boters will know about it to reprogram their bots and better position themselves.


So?  At least it will be more than just bots in the queue.  If the queue is short, the score is completely irrelevant.  Would you rather have a queue with all bots?  Or would you rather have a queue with bots and humans and then reprioritize the queue as advertised?
 
Why is it that users who already have 3 or 4 cards are defending queue 3.0, but users with 0 cards are saying that queue 3.0 is not being implemented as advertised?  You have to wonder...
 
The answer is simple.  Until queue 3.0 is open for a period of 24 hours as advertised, it favors people who have nothing better to do than buy cards, and users who are making money buying cards.  That is one group that EVGA supposedly is trying to deprioritize, but they have so far massively failed in doing so due to their compromises and misguided belief that a queue can be too full.  Until EVGA starts trusting the points system they are advertising, and opens up a queue long enough for points to matter, it is worse than it has ever been.
 
The principles of Queue 3.0 are misleading - EVGA Forums
flyingscot3461
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 18:33:51 (permalink)
I read through this New Queue 3.0 ... and its such a slap in the face and dumb. I see EVGA has a new card that out that I have no chance of purchasing. I have been in the old Queue system since October 2020. I have no interest in getting any more EVGA products. I say this as someone who has been buying EVGA graphics cards for almost 15 years. Maybe a little longer than that. Could be closer to 20 years. I see crypto farms with 1000's of evga cards so it is what it is. This new system is so complicated and I have no time to figure it out.  I am not a BOT im just one person looking for a card at MSRP. I have one shipping address. It obvious they are taking care of the crypto mining folks. Look at my user name I joined here in friggen 2009.... 2009 EVGA. You are now just the worst IMO.
post edited by flyingscot3461 - 2022/01/15 18:40:39
20227286714201
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 18:59:50 (permalink)
GTXJackBauer
starb0y
 
 
If they keep opening the queue unaccounced, only people with monitors and BOTS will know and enter whilst all their actual customers that want to upgrade will be left waiting. pathetic.
They have a "fair" system, they have loads of authentication processes, why not announce a date/time, advise people the queue will be open for say 30min-1h and then close it.
 

It a double edge sword.  If they do announce, the world's boters will know about it to reprogram their bots and better position themselves.



You actually don’t have to reprogram anything. If a script is able to automatically join queues, it’s not a huge stretch to have same script just refresh the web pages on a set interval, and compare from previous results to detect new products and/or active “Notify Me” page elements, and then auto-join their queues.
 
In fact, for the really lazy botters out there, you can even add a script as a Nagios check to do just that. It’s really not that hard to do.
 
In other words, not pre-announcing a new product is not making it any harder for the botters out there.
 
EDIT: Hell, there's probably scripts out there right now doing exactly this. Meanwhile, the botter is out sipping drinks. They don't even have to sit there to monitor. Their script or Nagios can send a push notification or text to their phone when a new queue has been joined successfully.
post edited by collinscdj - 2022/01/15 19:42:31
philipma1957
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 20:27:46 (permalink)
flyingscot3461
I read through this New Queue 3.0 ... and its such a slap in the face and dumb. I see EVGA has a new card that out that I have no chance of purchasing. I have been in the old Queue system since October 2020. I have no interest in getting any more EVGA products. I say this as someone who has been buying EVGA graphics cards for almost 15 years. Maybe a little longer than that. Could be closer to 20 years. I see crypto farms with 1000's of evga cards so it is what it is. This new system is so complicated and I have no time to figure it out.  I am not a BOT im just one person looking for a card at MSRP. I have one shipping address. It obvious they are taking care of the crypto mining folks. Look at my user name I joined here in friggen 2009.... 2009 EVGA. You are now just the worst IMO.




 
I have been buying gear from them since 2012.
I have spent a lot with them.
I have been able to get a few queue 2.0 cards.
 
I first signed for a few cards in October 2020 by Jan 2021 I realized signing for every card was the only way to maybe get a card.
 
I did get a 3060 first and put it in a friends build.
I got a kingpin hybrid I have that.
I got a 3090 3987
I got a 3090 hybrid ftw3
 
I have a 3090 hybrid xc3 left on the queue 
rest of queue was deleted.
 
I am not signing for queue 3.0
until queue 2.0 is done.
 
Do i think evga watched out for gamers no
do i think evga watched out for small garage miners no
do i think evga helped scalpers yes
do i think evga helped large miners yes.
I can drive to four microcenters in one day.
what did they do to prevent people from doing this.
they photographed your drivers license and banned you from buying a card for 30 days
 
evga could have restricted sales to large buyers better.
they did not.
 
to all on queue 3 good luck.
maybe i will get on it in a few months.
 
nomoss
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 20:51:32 (permalink)
EVGA queue was something new.  There were problems.  Adjustments were made to it and continue to be.
EVGA is doing this, now.  They have said they will continue to make changes. 
Ya'll people need some chill.



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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 21:19:14 (permalink)
Nereus
flyingscot3461
I read through this New Queue 3.0 ... and its such a slap in the face and dumb. I see EVGA has a new card that out that I have no chance of purchasing. I have been in the old Queue system since October 2020. I have no interest in getting any more EVGA products. I say this as someone who has been buying EVGA graphics cards for almost 15 years. Maybe a little longer than that. Could be closer to 20 years. I see crypto farms with 1000's of evga cards so it is what it is. This new system is so complicated and I have no time to figure it out.  I am not a BOT im just one person looking for a card at MSRP. I have one shipping address. It obvious they are taking care of the crypto mining folks. Look at my user name I joined here in friggen 2009.... 2009 EVGA. You are now just the worst IMO.

EVGA are the worst? Really?? Who else is trying to help regular people get GPUS - ASUS? Nope. MSI? Nope. Gigabyte? Nope. Zotac? Nope. NVidia? Definitely nope. ONLY EVGA are trying to do something to stop bots and scalpers, and you turn around and call EVGA the worst? GTF.... Go on, go, and take your bs somewhere else.
 
Man, the amount of whining on this thread from entitled pricks is insane.
 



tell me about it.


Vosse
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 21:20:03 (permalink)
Better be some crazy kind of changes if there are multiples of people who have been able to more than 1 card since they opened the queue original and there are people waiting who've been in that queue the same amount of time (1+ year) who haven't been able to get any card at all. (BTW Making changes to that  new queue won't help ANYONE still waiting in the original queue.)
Very publicly and loudly broadcasting "New Queue system!"
Then randomly opening the new queue for a new card (That they are asking 200% the cost of the original model. Show me a BOM for that card that shows the absurd increase of cost to account for that other than "Because we can". After all, Nvidia doesn't have an official MSRP for this card. How does adding 2GB, rearranging the memory bus to account for it and enabling a scant few more cores on the die add 700+$ to the retail price?) for only 30 minutes and the average people who can't be glued to their computer or phone 24/7 doesn't even have a chance,is a joke.

Of course it's really all Nvidia's fault, they are so tone deaf at this point it's sad. Rather than allocate resources to increase the supply, they continue to do nothing but fragment the market and artificially limit the supply with yet more SKUs.
post edited by Vosse - 2022/01/15 21:22:59
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 21:23:31 (permalink)
starb0y
LLLEFTERIS
tectonika
Pretty bad that the queue openned midnight for europe and I didnt have the chance to get in the waiting line. The gpu prices are still untouchable atm

And to you be able to enter the queue what is the benefit since they do not intend to give cards to Europe.




If they keep opening the queue unaccounced, only people with monitors and BOTS will know and enter whilst all their actual customers that want to upgrade will be left waiting. pathetic.
They have a "fair" system, they have loads of authentication processes, why not announce a date/time, advise people the queue will be open for say 30min-1h and then close it.
 




While their authentication processes show that EVGA is actually trying, which is commendable, it's fairly easy to automate logins with their current form of rudimentary 2FA. It only requires you to enter a numeric code that's texted and emailed to you. While I'm not sure if you can automate the text reply part, you can very easily do so with the email method. So their current style of 2FA isn't doing much at all to prevent botters. It likely caused a small speed bump when first implemented, but I'm confident that it's been dealt with by the botter scene at this point. #catandmouse
post edited by collinscdj - 2022/01/15 21:26:05
weasel333
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/15 23:48:06 (permalink)
Any day above ground is a good day. Before you complain about anything, be thankful for your life and the things that are still going well.

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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 00:11:12 (permalink)
philipma1957
flyingscot3461
I read through this New Queue 3.0 ... and its such a slap in the face and dumb. I see EVGA has a new card that out that I have no chance of purchasing. I have been in the old Queue system since October 2020. I have no interest in getting any more EVGA products. I say this as someone who has been buying EVGA graphics cards for almost 15 years. Maybe a little longer than that. Could be closer to 20 years. I see crypto farms with 1000's of evga cards so it is what it is. This new system is so complicated and I have no time to figure it out.  I am not a BOT im just one person looking for a card at MSRP. I have one shipping address. It obvious they are taking care of the crypto mining folks. Look at my user name I joined here in friggen 2009.... 2009 EVGA. You are now just the worst IMO.




 
I have been buying gear from them since 2012.
I have spent a lot with them.
I have been able to get a few queue 2.0 cards.
 
I first signed for a few cards in October 2020 by Jan 2021 I realized signing for every card was the only way to maybe get a card.
 
I did get a 3060 first and put it in a friends build.
I got a kingpin hybrid I have that.
I got a 3090 3987
I got a 3090 hybrid ftw3
 
I have a 3090 hybrid xc3 left on the queue 
rest of queue was deleted.
 
I am not signing for queue 3.0
until queue 2.0 is done.
 
Do i think evga watched out for gamers no
do i think evga watched out for small garage miners no
do i think evga helped scalpers yes
do i think evga helped large miners yes.
I can drive to four microcenters in one day.
what did they do to prevent people from doing this.
they photographed your drivers license and banned you from buying a card for 30 days
 
evga could have restricted sales to large buyers better.
they did not.
 
to all on queue 3 good luck.
maybe i will get on it in a few months.
 




Wow, you already got so many cards, and yet you are still unhappy
while there are so many others who hasn't even got single one.
You probably will only be happy if you become a millionaire.
 
The funny thing is, anyone can be scalper/gamer/miner. 
 
If there was an option for you to buy all the card, I bet you would buy it all even you don't need it, you can still sell it for profit.
 
It is just supply and demand working in progress. 
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 02:16:37 (permalink)
Nereus
ty_ger07
Nereus
asdeanza
So does this mean i'll be able to get into the queue at all now for regular 3070 and 3070TI cards? Or is the newly opened queue just for the 12gb 3080 in a small time window? I never knew the queue existed until it was too late. At least with the Newegg shuffle I at least have a feeling I could be the one and get lucky. With this EVGA thing I can't even notify myself that a queue is going to be opened. Do I just have to keep the tab permanently open as my home page now for whenever I open a new tab or something?

Additionally, about the EVGA score thing, why is it only limited to a 2 year window? I've been a loyal EVGA customer. I have a 9800 in my registered items list! I remember having the 560gtx and 980 gtx sc and am still currently on my 1080ti. Yet none of that counts (though only my 1080ti and 9800 were registered, lazy me). Kinda blows me away a little. Very few people upgrade every new generation unless they're going from low/mid-range to the next low/mid range. I had/have a 1080TI and the gains from the 20 series weren't enough for me to drop another $700. So I waited. Then when the new series comes out and with the shortages I think it is a normal COVID supply chain thing, not realizing the deeper issues with crypto miners and scalpers. So I wait for it to blow over. It never does and I don't actively look into the queue systems and such. And so now I have an EVGA score of 0? Weak sauce EVGA.

Don't be afraid of queues. Open the queue up everyone and simply prioritize that queue like 3.0 says it will but more aggressive. Look at registration dates and prioritize people with 10/16/20 series cards registered but no 30 series. It makes me legit sad that my only real hope of getting a card is for the Intel Arc Alchemist cards to be competitive like they claim and get lucky there too.

It's 3 years. May not help people like you and me who have been around for years (I have over 50 registered products going back to early 2009, about 20 of which are since January 2019), but it is what it is.

Will not help anyone who is unable to enter a short duration queue.

Never has. We all know that stock is very limited. There is no program that could change that. I don't think having people sitting in queues for over a year is a better option really, which is the only alternative to limiting the open period for notification queues. Also it helps stop that queue being loaded up with endless scalper accounts, and I am 100% for nailing those asshats to the wall.
 
 




Except it means that people like myself are almost guaranteed not to have the slightest chance if I understand how the queue opening system is going to be working. Just in this page of replies there is a guy that got a 3060ti, a 3070, and two 3090s and yet is complaining that evga doesn't help gamers. That guy STILL has other things in queue2.0 and is planning on sitting on that queue. It really shouldn't be hard to open the system up to everyone, having it tied to your EVGA account and registration history for odds and then just have a completely random lottery for all the allotted items like the Newegg Shuffle except having extremely high weights for those entries with evga forum/registration history. Scalpers can't go back in time and register only a 10/20 series card 4 years ago. Since sales are direct, you add a new thing into the priority for sales history too, so that anyone that gets something from the queue gets dropped back down in odds. Doesn't seem so hard to me.
A_Chainsaw
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 03:56:28 (permalink)
Oh man, now that there is a score stystem i can no longer be a lurker. I've been in a 3080 lineup for a while now and was an avid lurker for years. My 1080 has seen better days (2 refurbs on the card now) praying it holds out untill the offer for a 3080 comes through!
d109424
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 04:22:56 (permalink)
A_Chainsaw
Oh man, now that there is a score stystem i can no longer be a lurker. I've been in a 3080 lineup for a while now and was an avid lurker for years. My 1080 has seen better days (2 refurbs on the card now) praying it holds out untill the offer for a 3080 comes through!



Just buy more EVGA product or promote others to buy EVGA with your associate code, not that of big deal...
ty_ger07
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 06:10:53 (permalink)
collinscdj
In other words, not pre-announcing a new product is not making it any harder for the botters out there.

Exactly. People who make a living monitoring stock (either by physically monitoring it, or by using scripts) do not need a notification. Notifications and sufficient duration queues are what everyone else needs.
nomoss
EVGA queue was something new.  There were problems.  Adjustments were made to it and continue to be.
EVGA is doing this, now.  They have said they will continue to make changes. 
Ya'll people need some chill.

Except that isn't true. EVGA customer support told me (and I quoted it here somewhere on the forum) that their intent is to use short-duration queues more in the future. That is the most important change needed, and is a change they have stated that they don't plan to make. People will chill when that change is made.
tizz78
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 06:37:27 (permalink)
ty_ger07
collinscdj
In other words, not pre-announcing a new product is not making it any harder for the botters out there.

Exactly. People who make a living monitoring stock (either by physically monitoring it, or by using scripts) do not need a notification. Notifications and sufficient duration queues are what everyone else needs.
nomoss
EVGA queue was something new.  There were problems.  Adjustments were made to it and continue to be.
EVGA is doing this, now.  They have said they will continue to make changes. 
Ya'll people need some chill.

Except that isn't true. EVGA customer support told me (and I quoted it here somewhere on the forum) that their intent is to use short-duration queues more in the future. That is the most important change needed, and is a change they have stated that they don't plan to make. People will chill when that change is made.



Nothing is ever perfect, and nothing EVGA does will satisfy everyone. You're free to attempt to purchase a video card of other AIBs as well as an EVGA card from Newegg, Tiger Direct, Best Buy, Micro Center, ect. It's no different than Best Buy having a line outside of the store and an associate handing out a limited number of tickets to those whom were in line early. If you're late to the line, do you get a card? Maybe, maybe not. There's scalpers in those lines beating the system. I waited in line for my card (que), just like others. Ran my 1080ti until I received my new one. It's not like the medicine I NEED daily to keep me alive. I COULD do without it (video card). It's a leisure device that brings me joy and occasional breaks from the madness of the real world... I'm just not sure there will ever be a system that pleases everyone, except things going back to normal where supplies are nearly endless.. That's not going to happen anytime soon so gamers have some choices to make I guess.
post edited by tizz78 - 2022/01/16 07:32:08

 Want to save a few bucks? Use my Associates code!

 
20227286714201
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Re: EVGA Queue 3.0 (Beginning 1/11/2022) 2022/01/16 06:59:46 (permalink)
tizz78
ty_ger07
collinscdj
In other words, not pre-announcing a new product is not making it any harder for the botters out there.

Exactly. People who make a living monitoring stock (either by physically monitoring it, or by using scripts) do not need a notification. Notifications and sufficient duration queues are what everyone else needs.
nomoss
EVGA queue was something new.  There were problems.  Adjustments were made to it and continue to be.
EVGA is doing this, now.  They have said they will continue to make changes. 
Ya'll people need some chill.

Except that isn't true. EVGA customer support told me (and I quoted it here somewhere on the forum) that their intent is to use short-duration queues more in the future. That is the most important change needed, and is a change they have stated that they don't plan to make. People will chill when that change is made.



Nothing is ever perfect, and nothing EVGA does will satisfy everyone. You're free to attempt to purchase a video card of other AIBs as well as an EVGA card from Newegg, Tiger Direct, Best Buy, Micro Center, ect. It's no different than Best Buy having a line outside of the store and an associate handing out a limited number of tickets to those whom were in line early. If you're late to the line, do you get a card? Maybe, maybe not. There's scalpers in those lines beating the system. I waited in line for my card (que), just like others. Ran my 1080ti until I received my new one. It's not like the medicine I NEED daily to keep me alive. I COULD do without it. It's a leisure device that brings me joy and occasional breaks from the madness of the real world... I'm just not sure there will ever be a system that pleases everyone, except things going back to normal where supplies are nearly endless.. That's not going to happen anytime soon so gamers have some choices to make I guess.





“If you don’t like it, you can leave” statements such as these go against the spirit of EVGA’s invitation to provide feedback about this new Q 3.0 system. Constructive feedback is not a bad thing.
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