Viper, which is why one of my ideas was to develop our own stats and ignore whatever crap they want to concoct.  The others are to ignore the stats/results or ignore the CC entirely.  I agree 100% it is not worth engaging in the politics, but I think it is even more pointless to engage in intentional destruction.

Troy... would you do it?  I know things are tight for you.  I'd back it.
 
Pity about the destruction... twenty years in the military... I miss the destruction!
 
I think you understand what I'm saying, even if I am being flippant about it.  We need to gauge our team by a fair set of metrics and not by one that has been tainted.  Fair is all I ask. 
 
I'd be down for that in a heartbeat if you are up to it and that stat collecting pimp dude team up. 
 
I believe we are the best team... I believe we can take back the crown from [H] with the direction a lot of our team mates are going.
 
And if you decide to accept this mission Mr. Phelps... I believe you can pull this off and give this team... the truth.  Should you decide to accept this mission you have one year to complete this.
 
Oh.. and least I seem too weird.  Either way I appreciated what you two did for the team during the March Madness run.  That was mucho fun. 

Me AB... I'm responsible... I personally enjoy the idea of taking down the CC by folding for another team... or as in what has been done being 'guest folders' or as I call them being ringers. 
 
That is the destruction.  Take down those that plot to elevate their team at the expense of others.
 
It is, in my opinion a great way to send notice that it is not to be tolerated anymore.  No more fixing the formulas, no more ringers, no more guest folders who then go back to their home team.
 
It is my opinion.  I have vocalized it. 
 
However; I have said if we (and I mean not me as I'm to uneducated to do this) as a team decide to gauge our strength using a fair and balanced (sorry Fox!) method to measure ourselves against another team then I'm all for it.
 
If not, I'll not be in the CC... now or ever and I will switch my rigs to WCG during that time frame. 
 
I will not take the higher ground... we've done that and we have seen the results.

YARrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

http://chimp.axihub.ca/ 
 
I don't understand how this handicap is considered even remotely fair.
Our team is leading in raw points by over 100million over the next closest team. 
Yet we are losing because we have a 1x multiplier and other teams have a x2.2 or x5.3? W.T.F

Why apathy?  Why the sense that the contest is rigged?  Why bring in 'guest' folders to produce for your team and NOT include those numbers in the basis for determining the handicap?
 
Apathy is created when folks realize that any effort put forth is futile, that it will not make an impact in the contest.  Hence why bother the outcome is predetermined.  This team does not stand a chance.
 
The contest IS rigged.  It was from the start I'm sorry if you can't see it but the fact remains it is. 
 
And since when does bringing in guest folders from other teams (who upon completion of the CC return to their home teams) make the overall contest a laughing stock?  Face it, the handicap works in their favor because the guest folders production was never taken into consideration!
 
Sorry XZ, I understand in part what you are saying but I cannot agree with the premise that this contest is serious.  It isn't, it appears it hasn't been and the Jade Monkey, gold banana or a partridge in a pear tree isn't going to change it.
 
It has become what it is by design and willful flaunting of rules.  There is no changing that perception with me.  It might have meant something once but now it is a worthless contest.
 
I'm still folding but frankly as I said, if this is the way it is always you can keep this contest.  I wish to be no part of this farce.

I may be off on this XZ... I think what you are really saying, is the contest is broken. Grown men and women are choosing to use "Their" equipment for other needs at the moment, and the combination of those two are the issue? Is this correct?
 
If so... I totally disagree.
 
On one hand I understand why a few have come out and said that is why they are not participating. Well that happens in every contest. There will never be a contest where all participate. On the other hand, the real issue "Is" the contest. The only way for a person to show how serious they are about their belief or stand is to do something about it. This is a good thing in my mind... Just ask EA and those that tried to make MOH a success. 
 
Let's recognize that we will always have folks that are off doing other things and that we will never make everyone happy. Our only goal should be to put our best foot forward as a team at all times for the greater good. 

This is just a thought bouncing around the inside of my noggin. if its dumb just say so.
 

texinga

Unless I'm misunderstanding the point, I expect that I'm one of the people that XZ references as being part of the reason that we are not winning CC today.  I don't disagree that the absence of my production has some effect.  But, I do have a word of caution in speaking that way about our members (not in anger but as a piece of advice).  Pointing to team members that are not participating in CC (for whatever is their personal reason), and the problems that result from it, is at the heart of why HardOCP does not fold in CC anymore.  We should be mindful of that experience and not resurrect that problem over here.

 
Tex there was NO reason to target any particular person..
I was in agreement with your motives they were good ones...
 
some would fold or crunch for other reasons - and thats OK
we can't get everyone
 
what I was saying 
Even if we had put forward a good attempt we could be #1
 
the stats analysis proves that we could have easily produced another 7MPPD
at least another 4M from top 100 let alone top 200-
Ive seen 1200 active members,currently we are at 900
and we added new members since that peak
 
why should ie be easy in a cake walk to win?..ie guaranteed to win?
what I was showing by analysis is that bringing us to a peak performance we could have easily beaten the others
 
I agree the handicap wasn't perfect ...I pointed out how it will still benefit smaller teams - which it does
big folders for a small team will skew results - which is why any handicap system will always go against us
 
I have been pushing having two contests... a straight PPD race in the CC
why two - one for a handicap system and one for a non-handicap
this is the only way to balance it - all the handicap systems so far have show  that any system - because of the makeup will benefit smaller teams more 
 
take OCAU 3M PPD  lets take 1, 2 or three top dogs from [H]
OCAU- doubles,triples,Quadriples production 
and run any number of handicaps -  see the results under this system 6x and multiple 4x more
and what if someone goes out and gets a mainframe...and produce 10M PPD - there are some system testers out there with access to hardware in production
 
and what if we add teams smaller than OCAU (lets say 1MPPD) so lets go for 10x fold factor here
 
now are we gonna question every folder - get credentials and see if they are really a member of that team (they can use false names)
they could say yes.... and 1 week later legitimately leave or quit folding
and there is still nothing stopping people from folding other people rigs under a known regular member and that person can say - ya I got some rigs for a while to run
 
and if we start locking out questionable folders that join a contest (ringers) then we could be penalizing possible new members
which goes against the spirit and reason for having the contest - namely Growth,adding new membership and awareness- growing FAH
rather than stagnating all your teams(referring to the smaller teams here) and expecting a handicap come rescue your team so you can win the chimp 
this does nothing to push your team to grow because you get rewarded for staying small 

now back to the reason for second contest - namely straight PPD to push the other teams to grow and bring [H] back in
Straight point is the only fair system - no formula - just raw numbers - you win or lose by getting members
if you want to beat EVGA or [H] or OCN then you do it by growing your membership
if you think we should be PO'd look at OCN
 

 
#2 there have never been any rules regarding signup - and there is no way to police it
how do you know if you don't have a serious number from [H] here or another team? - if they do it anonymously
you willing to question every member on EVGA or who fold for EVGA without an account (just by having a team number to 111065) 
#3 last point - lets work as a team - accept the handicap or system we are given (we can complain about it after the CC) but currently do everything we can to make it work - rather than saying it's not fair and quit or give up, or rant about it , and in so doing it scares off, un-motivates people to fold . Again this goes against the spirit of folding and the contest.
 
once the contest is over work to make it work next year - post your comments then and try to help make it work next year 
and by god sake next year drop the complaints from the get go and work our butts off as a team to show justice as to what this team can pull off - we are no where near our peak still
 
we can post our complaints in post-contest thread - or CC2014 or CC2015 discussion thread

I never said the team was stagnant...
I said other teams like OCAU were...we haven't seen serous growth on a lot of smaller teams
 
I agree - one of the main reasons we are doing so bad is some members won't fold for the chimp because of the 
 
1, formula
2, perception it's biased against us
3. bad taste left in mouth from previous years
 
and I totally agree with a lot of comments here
 
I have no magic bullet here (I almost had a PPD race in 2011)
 
I think OCAU had the right idea - break it up and have different contests 
 
or have a +/- contest
based on team max PPD
sum[daily PPD-team max PPD] 
this would subtract off lets say 40M PPD and we based on the amount of PPD over it
other teams would have the same thing happen
 
then it's a race to get the most new PPD (or most new members with that PPD) over your MAX
no multipliers - no handicap
it has a leveling affect - everyone on PAR
 

Oh well... either way.  I'm off to team VGT to help.  I'll still be folding but like I said I rather enjoy throwing a monkey wrench into other teams plots against us.
 
Everyone is more than welcome to join me for the last few days of CC.  I'll be guest folding for team 38156 until the CC is over then back here.  I may not upset the apple cart but I know this if we did this as a team and folded for VGT for the last few days then we could put an end to this nonsense and serve notice it will no longer be tolerated!
 
Do you stand with me! (Insert pirate Arrrggghhh! here)

Xavier Zepherious
now - first thing is to fix the contest 
this will help alleviate the other problem - having a format everyone can trust or know is fair would go a long way

I have had a very basic question, understanding that many people agree that the contest needs "fixing".  Given the issues that we raised this year in the 2013 development thread, why didn't we take the time to "fix" things?  Why did we decide to launch the contest (as designed)? 
 
Now, before anyone jumps to "let's not look backward", I want to explain why I raised the question.  You see, when people raise thoughts, issues, share new ideas as we did this year, and then we don't see that we took the time to implement, address, test and make the contest better, it leaves a wrong impression. 
 
Before we say things like this team is "causing our own doom", how about taking a moment to first consider (as Troy suggested) that the contest design practices don't allow for the team to fix the recurring issues with CC?  How can we make the contest better if we don't (at some point) say "hold the presses, let's fix the problem even if it delays a deadline" (or date in this scenario).

Heh...I'm going to go find some "cats to herd".  Here kitty...

how about trying out the +/- system and dynamic handicap system next year - while running a straight PPD race
 
3 categories
 
straight PPD
pros : simple  - not easily thwarted by ringers
cons: most teams have no chance under this system except maybe [H] and OCN


Dynamic handicap
pros: handicap - zero's your new growth each new day - so the onus is to grow your team each day - otherwise you get no more points

cons: more complicated - there could be varying ways to implement
...... : ringers still have influence
 
+/- system
pros definitely more fair - puts everyone on par - and it's about growing team PPD over your current max)
cons- can be thwarted by ringers - any system can be thwarted by ringers 
in fact in a straight PPD race all of [h] could go to OCAU or OCN or OCF and spoil that - just not as likely
 
have 3 trophies for that year
at least in this way we can test out models while having a standard PPD race
 
I still think either of the two new models would be more fair
and there is nothing stopping us from keeping one of them and going down to two the year after and having a PPD and a  formulated race

Edit update:
we are already discussing changes and are posting ideas early
I think some of the teams got the message from me that participation in the process was really bad this year
topics up for discussion:
Date,
length,
ringers
formula
...and I posted about process as well
as Adak said in the capts thread -post CC discussion
 
 We need to look at lots of idea's so we can choose among several, not just one or two idea's.

ya it is troy
 
the fact we have members saying we couldn't win at all just PO'd me - the fact remains it was very possible - analysis showed that
 
 
so we don't win this year No big deal...
I suggest we go into next year just to put up a good showing as well (not to win - just to have fun)
Id be happy in 2 or third for a few years and lets the other teams win it a few times
 
and that's if I see some goodwill changes from the other teams before I suggest we do on the process and talking now
then see if the team likes any new system before we say we go into it
 
Im not going thru this again - start in jen or feb and get nothing until the last few weeks ...under deadlines and absent voters[non votes]
 
if this happens... it happens now - like Im doing on the capt forum talking about ideas changes this year - a full year away
 
lets discuss it now while we have attention on it...while we have plenty of time to discuss it and vote on it letting everyone vote and have no absent voters
 
 
races aren't necessarily fair
 
the fact we are a close second or third is a hell of a lot better than being dead last or near dead last with the amount of PPD we produce (last last couple of years)

it also be a good idea to post any new formula or ideas so I can post them now
I should also post in the capt thread to revisit our suggestions from the previous CC discussion thread that were dismissed
 
 post comments:
1) starting date in April: Good, Bad, or Indifferent? (GBI)  
If Bad, what starting date would you like?

2) no "Chimp" name change required to enter the race: G/B/or I?

3) Length of the race - was it too: long, short, or perfect in length?

4) Outside your own team Recruiting. I'm not sure we can always stop this, even if we wanted to. Do you want to OK outside recruiting, or (try) and ban it?

5) Did you prefer the handicap system that was used last year, or this year's? 
 
6) questions for feedback of this year's CC, please post them up. We need to look at lots of idea's so we can choose among several, not just one or two idea's.
-------------
I put for myself
 
1. good
2, good
3, good- could be longer tho (OCN thinks 2 weeks)
4.hard to ban or police - lets try coming up with a system that reduces the likelyhood of spoiling
they can use different names(than their own forum)....so tracking by name is impossible
 
lets try to ban chimp names and common folding under a single name
lets try to convince members that do switch to do so the next year under their own team -including [H] members
 
5. it was better for Us than last years
but it's not a good system 
 
6. I posted this year's earlier ideas and then some more
+/- system, Dynamic Handicap
and having a dual or triple system
 
straight PPD and a formulated system(s)...using a new formula/handicap - which has been tossed about a few times
heck we can give out 2 or 3 trophies if we are expanding ...like to add 3 or more members next year...maybe more?