Sajin
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 13:44:50
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GamerSX
Greene MaChine
That's normal modern business practices. I expect return policies like that with anything purchased.
Your fortunate your retailer did a refund, alot of them nowadays won't.
Did they ding you a restocking fee ?
restocking fee in a warranty case? how? anyways i am in the EU so we do not have the concept of a restocking fee here even during the first 14 or 30 days return period, all they did was give me about 80% of what i originally paid because i have used the product for one year, so they deducted that, still a pretty good deal for having the freedom of buying any other product i wanted instead of being stuck with a problematic SKU ...
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Arsenic13
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 14:07:16
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Yikes. If this is the cause of the issue they claimed they fixed, I wonder what they did to ensure this wouldn't continue.
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libneon
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 14:59:25
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Arsenic13
Yikes. If this is the cause of the issue they claimed they fixed, I wonder what they did to ensure this wouldn't continue.
It seems there would need to be a physical fix to this like additional thermal dissipation where the hotspot is. It's the same spot where my card and others I've seen have fried components. It may not be affecting every card now but I wonder what will happen once these cards have some age on them.
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NetQvist
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 15:02:33
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libneon
Arsenic13
Yikes. If this is the cause of the issue they claimed they fixed, I wonder what they did to ensure this wouldn't continue.
It seems there would need to be a physical fix to this like additional thermal dissipation where the hotspot is. It's the same spot where my card and others I've seen have fried components. It may not be affecting every card now but I wonder what will happen once these cards have some age on them.
One thing is for certain, age won't make the issue less apparent...
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NetQvist
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 15:14:11
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the_Scarlet_one
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libneon
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 16:06:04
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Scarlet-Tech
NetQvist
Annuminas on reddit dug up some interesting heatsink images:
Compare the ROG Strix cooler  http://i.imgur.com/Z7vUjkX.jpg
TO the FTW ACX cooler http://i.imgur.com/ZJ2ykXQ.jpg
The Asus card has a nice strip of thermal compound over the VRM and EVGA does not.
Link to original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/..._explain_black/d8zcpnd
There is a heatspreader covering the VRM and entire PCB separate from the core heatsink. There is (or should be) thermal tape under the heatplate for the VRM section.
The ROG strix cooler does not have a heat spreader under the cooler, the rest of the components are bare, which is why they have to add this small section of thermal tape and heat spreader onto the cooler itself.
Why do the other cards not show such hot spots then? The founder's edition shows no hot spot: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-10.html EVGA makes great products, I've been buying them for years, but there is definitely a hot spot over the VRM/memory area that seems to exceed the safe range for those components...and I can't even imagine what it's like if someone's case isn't ventilated right or kept clean.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 16:22:03
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libneon
Why do the other cards not show such hot spots then?
The founder's edition shows no hot spot: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-10.html
EVGA makes great products, I've been buying them for years, but there is definitely a hot spot over the VRM/memory area that seems to exceed the safe range for those components...and I can't even imagine what it's like if someone's case isn't ventilated right or kept clean.
I do not have a way to measure these hot spots, nor am I an electrical engineer that could figure out why adding twice the amount of VRMs would cause a hot spot. The SeaHawk (MSI) has a relatively hot VRM section compared to the FounderEdition, and they utilize nearly the same VRM section with a few minor differences. http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-2.html The gigabyte G1 Gaming has less VRM with no full coverage heatplate, and has a hotspot in a completely different section: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-4.html If I had to go with best guess, the heat plate is not dissipating enough heat due to the low fan speeds and strive for silent operation. The Galax HOF would be a good example, as the PCB contains extra VRM kind of like the FTW: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-6.html Notice that the heat plate has fins to assist with dissipating the heat, and the cooler utilizes more fans. I also notice that they utilize furmark, which NVidia black listed because it was killing GPUs. I mean, if they are going to torture test a GPU, why not use a program known to overheat and kill GPU's?
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libneon
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 17:20:12
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Scarlet-Tech
libneon
Why do the other cards not show such hot spots then?
The founder's edition shows no hot spot: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-10.html
EVGA makes great products, I've been buying them for years, but there is definitely a hot spot over the VRM/memory area that seems to exceed the safe range for those components...and I can't even imagine what it's like if someone's case isn't ventilated right or kept clean.
I do not have a way to measure these hot spots, nor am I an electrical engineer that could figure out why adding twice the amount of VRMs would cause a hot spot.
The SeaHawk (MSI) has a relatively hot VRM section compared to the FounderEdition, and they utilize nearly the same VRM section with a few minor differences. http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-2.html
The gigabyte G1 Gaming has less VRM with no full coverage heatplate, and has a hotspot in a completely different section: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-4.html
If I had to go with best guess, the heat plate is not dissipating enough heat due to the low fan speeds and strive for silent operation.
The Galax HOF would be a good example, as the PCB contains extra VRM kind of like the FTW: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-6.html Notice that the heat plate has fins to assist with dissipating the heat, and the cooler utilizes more fans.
I also notice that they utilize furmark, which NVidia black listed because it was killing GPUs. I mean, if they are going to torture test a GPU, why not use a program known to overheat and kill GPU's?
Ya, I think Furmark results can to some degree be disregarded but the Metro Last Light loop was still hitting 97.7 C which still seems way too high for that part of the card. That was right in the area where my card died as well. It seemed fine for the couple of months I had it before that.
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Salem13
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 19:48:37
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It looks like (selfish bastard) people using an EK block are OK?
I had a fun time placing that TIM on, the blue backing drove me nuts lol... now I'm so glad it's there!
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 19:52:10
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Salem13
It looks like (selfish bastard) people using an EK block are OK?
I had a fun time placing that TIM on, the blue backing drove me nuts lol... now I'm so glad it's there!
The ek block will remove the hest sufficiently. Ek has always done well focusing on the vrm section... On the other hand, they have recently changed to a new thermal tape, and I do not like it specifically because of the protective tape on it.. I like the old stuff way better.
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Greene MaChine
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 20:18:30
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GamerSX
restocking fee in a warranty case? how? anyways i am in the EU so we do not have the concept of a restocking fee here even during the first 14 or 30 days return period, all they did was give me about 80% of what i originally paid because i have used the product for one year, so they deducted that, still a pretty good deal for having the freedom of buying any other product i wanted instead of being stuck with a problematic SKU ...
No a restocking fee from the retailer. It's virtually common practice in North America. Alot of smaller businesses will also tack on a %, if your in store buying with a credit card. It's great that you could return it (the 780). Over here, you can usually do it, but alot of places will fight you for it, unless you spend more for a higher end product. Good Explanation on the heatsinks Scarlet-Tech.  libneon
Ya, I think Furmark results can to some degree be disregarded but the Metro Last Light loop was still hitting 97.7 C which still seems way too high for that part of the card. That was right in the area where my card died as well. It seemed fine for the couple of months I had it before that.
Unfortunately, you have to be cautious with alot of software nowadays. OCCT was another with functions that can hammer the GPU. Probably a few others. There was malware a couple of years ago that would take over your card to mine bitcoin, if i recall correctly. The original Stalker had a bug where you could set vsync on, and it worked in game, but at the menu it would draw a fast as the card could push. Dunno if that was fixed.. I used a Usenet client coded in Java from Giganews a few years back, and somehow it interacted and pushed the desktop (2D) at full-speed, for no reason i could see. Use a Frame-limiter when needed, set a Custom Fan Curve in Precision/Afterburner and keep your case clean and the fans going. Greene
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HeavyHemi
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/19 20:56:23
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Scarlet-Tech
libneon
Why do the other cards not show such hot spots then?
The founder's edition shows no hot spot: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-10.html
EVGA makes great products, I've been buying them for years, but there is definitely a hot spot over the VRM/memory area that seems to exceed the safe range for those components...and I can't even imagine what it's like if someone's case isn't ventilated right or kept clean.
I do not have a way to measure these hot spots, nor am I an electrical engineer that could figure out why adding twice the amount of VRMs would cause a hot spot.
The SeaHawk (MSI) has a relatively hot VRM section compared to the FounderEdition, and they utilize nearly the same VRM section with a few minor differences. http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-2.html
The gigabyte G1 Gaming has less VRM with no full coverage heatplate, and has a hotspot in a completely different section: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-4.html
If I had to go with best guess, the heat plate is not dissipating enough heat due to the low fan speeds and strive for silent operation.
The Galax HOF would be a good example, as the PCB contains extra VRM kind of like the FTW: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-6.html Notice that the heat plate has fins to assist with dissipating the heat, and the cooler utilizes more fans.
I also notice that they utilize furmark, which NVidia black listed because it was killing GPUs. I mean, if they are going to torture test a GPU, why not use a program known to overheat and kill GPU's?
I noticed that too. And to get the power draw they are claiming they had to disable the driver throttling for Furmark to get it. That isn't anything you see in the real world except under extreme benching scenarios. The only thing I used Furmark for was testing different case and GPU fan settings for noise versus worst case temps.
EVGA X99 FTWK / i7 6850K @ 4.5ghz / RTX 3080Ti FTW Ultra / 32GB Corsair LPX 3600mhz / Samsung 850Pro 256GB / Be Quiet BN516 Straight Power 12-1000w 80 Plus Platinum / Window 10 Pro
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Arsenic13
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 06:19:51
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Anyone here with a post BS100% RMA GPU have the chops to disassemble the card to see what's changed if anything?
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NetQvist
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 06:26:47
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HeavyHemi
Scarlet-Tech
libneon
Why do the other cards not show such hot spots then?
The founder's edition shows no hot spot: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-10.html
EVGA makes great products, I've been buying them for years, but there is definitely a hot spot over the VRM/memory area that seems to exceed the safe range for those components...and I can't even imagine what it's like if someone's case isn't ventilated right or kept clean.
I do not have a way to measure these hot spots, nor am I an electrical engineer that could figure out why adding twice the amount of VRMs would cause a hot spot.
The SeaHawk (MSI) has a relatively hot VRM section compared to the FounderEdition, and they utilize nearly the same VRM section with a few minor differences. http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-2.html
The gigabyte G1 Gaming has less VRM with no full coverage heatplate, and has a hotspot in a completely different section: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-4.html
If I had to go with best guess, the heat plate is not dissipating enough heat due to the low fan speeds and strive for silent operation.
The Galax HOF would be a good example, as the PCB contains extra VRM kind of like the FTW: http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-6.html Notice that the heat plate has fins to assist with dissipating the heat, and the cooler utilizes more fans.
I also notice that they utilize furmark, which NVidia black listed because it was killing GPUs. I mean, if they are going to torture test a GPU, why not use a program known to overheat and kill GPU's?
I noticed that too. And to get the power draw they are claiming they had to disable the driver throttling for Furmark to get it. That isn't anything you see in the real world except under extreme benching scenarios.
The only thing I used Furmark for was testing different case and GPU fan settings for noise versus worst case temps.
The problem is that even the Metro Last Light test is getting too hot on the EVGA if the spec sheet that has been posted is correct. If the max temp according to the makers is 95 degrees and EVGA is at 94,7 degrees when the GPU is only at 73.... well that's bad! My gpu pretty much ran stable at 73 in all games and I've heard people having core temps past 80 when gaming, I don't even want to know how the vram feels then.
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evgauser28764
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 07:24:26
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guru3d also has vrm temp tests on some 1070s including ftw. same conclusion too. one of the main reasons why nvidia has blacklisted furmark should be the poor cooling performance of nvidia stock coolers.
post edited by acxcoolerssuck - 2016/10/20 08:02:11
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NetQvist
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 07:44:15
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acxcoolerssuck
guru3d also has vrm temp tests on some 1070s including ftw. same conclusion too.
one of the main reasons why nvidia has blacklisted furmark should be the poor cooling performance of nvidia stock cooler.
Ugh thankfully my reseller just sent me a message that I'll get a Asus Strix 1080 OC as a replacement instead of the EVGA, sent my card in on Monday before these thermal images and now I'm really glad I won't have to try another FTW. The cards are literally fire hazards if you happen to get a bad batch, bad components or whatever the source of this problem is.
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mannitu78
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 08:20:30
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interesting to hear that so many people have problems with the FTW. For me it would be ok, because i always build a Raijintek Morpheus on my Cards, with far superior memory and VRM cooling. So i would probably never run into problems. I guess that would be the best way to handle it. Or just limit the Power % to a certain point. 2100mhz does not tell anything. It can pull 160Watts or 200+ watts on 2100mhz. Especially high resolution pulls a lot of power. I have to say i would be so excited about a 1080 Classy-thermal analysis...couldnt find anything so long. On the 980 it has to be superior, cause you can even ov the VRAM to 1,7+ Volts on the VRAM on the long term, even with stock cooler. The PCB is just awesome. It would be very disappointing if the mighty Classy is not as good as it used to be anymore. But i guess the Classified is still fine...but its got nearly the same cooling plate for VRM and memory....which seems to be very ineffective. btw I HAVE TO SAY something the wrote in the test which you cannot understand, as its german. "You can bring the problem down to a certain point, if you put the fan on very high rpm, but thats only achievable with an annoying level Fan-Sound"... sounds like dont get 106 C on the PCB if you turn the fan well above the stock profile.
post edited by mannitu78 - 2016/10/20 08:25:10
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jompija
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 08:22:18
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Quick test. 1070 FTW @ idle  Full load for 10 minutes, GPU temp @ ~65c   Observations?
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jaju123
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 08:35:20
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mannitu78
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 08:37:43
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those pics dont tell anything if you dont know the exact testsetup...there are missing tons of information.
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NetQvist
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 08:41:13
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mannitu78
btw I HAVE TO SAY something the wrote in the test which you cannot understand, as its german.
"You can bring the problem down to a certain point, if you put the fan on very high rpm, but thats only achievable with an annoying level Fan-Sound"...
sounds like dont get 106 C on the PCB if you turn the fan well above the stock profile.
Yeah this is the scary part, I'm actually thinking the problem gets worse if you have good airflow in the case. In my case the fans only ran at 40-45% during full load at 1440p in games, and I was getting the exact same 73 degree temp like their metro game gets. If you know anyone with a 1080 FTW tell them to use custom fan curves if they use the stock cooler and have good airflow otherwise because the card is killing itself by not spinning the GPU fan fast enough. OCed or not doesn't matter it seems.
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mannitu78
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 09:00:55
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id buy a few little mosfet heatsinks for 10 bucks and put them on the back of the pcb, with thick thermal pads. You have a FTW?
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jompija
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 09:39:55
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I've ran a longer stint of Heaven with the sidepanel removed.   The value absolute temperature value of the heatsink is a bit different on a more sensible emissivity setting, but close enough. For comparison I used the ~1.0 e-value, which Guru3d uses.    On this pic the hotspot on the mobo side ls located pretty much where the VRMs are?  1070 FTW. For this price Evga should start thinking about providing pads for free if it's the solution. Luckily the card is brand new and can be sent back.
post edited by jompija - 2016/10/20 10:04:28
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mannitu78
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 09:42:02
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heaven is not good...you need something that pulls more power....for example Firestrike extreme. That pulls more power, 100% usage does not mean always same power-draw
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zadinex
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 09:48:32
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NetQvist
acxcoolerssuck
guru3d also has vrm temp tests on some 1070s including ftw. same conclusion too.
one of the main reasons why nvidia has blacklisted furmark should be the poor cooling performance of nvidia stock cooler.
Ugh thankfully my reseller just sent me a message that I'll get a Asus Strix 1080 OC as a replacement instead of the EVGA, sent my card in on Monday before these thermal images and now I'm really glad I won't have to try another FTW.
The cards are literally fire hazards if you happen to get a bad batch, bad components or whatever the source of this problem is.
When this issue first arose with my FTW, I also took the plunge and got a Strix OC instead. It has been a great card thus far with no issues. I was concerned at first since PCB images show some of the ram modules not being cooled in contrast to the FTW (hence my decision to purchase first and evga's CS), but my Asus card runs very cool and never exceeds 65C under full load.
i7-980X, EVGA Classified 3, Asus GTX 1080 Strix OC, 24GB G.Skill, Samsung 840 Pro 250GB, Antec TPQ 1200 Power Supply
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mannitu78
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 09:57:03
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i can see a contradiction here^^....you said you were concerned about the uncooled VRAMs form the strix, but then you you were happy because the GPU only gets 65 C warm.
For me personally the KFA HOF seems to be the best card...whenever theres no Classified or MSI Lightning available.
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zadinex
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 10:17:56
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mannitu78
i can see a contradiction here^^....you said you were concerned about the uncooled VRAMs form the strix, but then you you were happy because the GPU only gets 65 C warm.
For me personally the KFA HOF seems to be the best card...whenever theres no Classified or MSI Lightning available.
Indeed there is some contradiction, since the only card I had to compare it to was my previous FTW 1080. Under load my ftw would push upwards to 80C full load with what appeared to be superior cooling in contrast to the strix. However the Strix with some uncooled vram runs 15C cooler with what may seem a inferior design without artifacts or black screens. So ultimately I am happy with the purchase. With that said, Asus customer support is terrible, and RMA process even worse hence why keep going back to EVGA. Hopefully they get this under control.
post edited by zadinex - 2016/10/20 10:21:22
i7-980X, EVGA Classified 3, Asus GTX 1080 Strix OC, 24GB G.Skill, Samsung 840 Pro 250GB, Antec TPQ 1200 Power Supply
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Ranmacanada
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 11:52:58
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So with all these cards burning..I take it B-Stock 1070-1080's are something that everyone will want to avoid? haha
Damn this sucks. And I wanted to get an EVGA card with my EVGA Bucks too.
 ASUS TUF GAMING X570-PLUS (WI-FI) AMD Ryzen 2700 Fold for the CURE! EVGA 1080 FTW EVGA 1080Ti Hybrid 
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Oryato
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Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?
2016/10/20 12:10:51
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So if I overclock my 1080 FTW I will get blown the xxx out? Not sounding good.
INTEL i7 4930K, CORSAIR 32GB RAM ASUS Rampage IV BLACK EDITION EVGA GTX 1080 FTW @ 2050MHz / 10800MHz CORSAIR AX1500i Arch Linux GPU Passthrough Enabled ✔
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