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Lockedbad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW?

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mannitu78
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2016/10/19 03:54:57 (permalink)
hi,
im still on my 980 Classy and still havent decided if im gonny sell my card and buy a 1070. As there is no 1070 Classy, i tried to pull as much information about the 1070 as i could. I stumbled over a hardware-testing site here in Germany, which tested the PCBs and phase-layout of different Pascal Cards (Toms Hardware). Testing included infrared-temp-analysis of the hot PCB and i was shocked to see that the 1080FTW(in this case they tested not 1070 FTW) went up to 97 degree (even 106 degree C with raised Powertarget under heavy load und Furmark). The HOTspots on the pcb were so big that they even reached the VRAM/memory area and warmed up the memory-chips.
 
They came to the conclusion that the phase-layout is far from good, so it seems the mosfets are not cooled properly or something like said. There were other PCBs that didnt develope any hotspots and the whole PCB never got warmer than 75 C...(i remember the KFA HOF to be one of them)
 
To me this information was pretty new and i would like to ask if someone can confirm this or can show me another, maybe english testsite, where they testet in this way, sensoring the PCB-Hotspots?
 
greetings from Germany
 
PS::http://www.tomshardware.d...berichte-242137-2.html
post edited by mannitu78 - 2016/10/19 04:11:34
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    jaju123
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 04:42:56 (permalink)
    Maybe this explains the black screen crash? :O
    #2
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 05:42:22 (permalink)
    Well that's interesting and kind of confirms my fears about the card.
    #3
    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:06:15 (permalink)
    The information makes sense if you consider that many people are reporting getting the 100% fans and black screen after having used the card for a month or two, if the memory ICs are exposed to about 107c degrees all the time they will fail because they will be running out spec.
     
    According to Micron GDDR5X Specs sheet for these modules found in the link below, their Operating temperature is (0°C ≤ TC ≤ +95°C) so 107c continuous exposure will kill them.
     
    https://www.micron.com/~/media/documents/products/data-sheet/dram/gddr5/8gb_gddr5x_sgram_brief.pdf
     
    EVGA said that they will not say the reason behind the failure so that people do not attempt to fix it themselves, what else can users fix on a card other than improve the cooling themselves? i don't think that users can go as far as desoldering and replacing components on the PCB.
    #4
    AHowes
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:18:35 (permalink)
    Maybe the backplate is holding too much heat.

    Still this is happening (should say was as its been fixed) also on the hybrid ftw card and the memory is also cooled by the water cooler with a copper plate so the bs 100% issue was not heat related.

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    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:28:51 (permalink)
    AHowes
    Maybe the backplate is holding too much heat.

    Still this is happening (should say was as its been fixed) also on the hybrid ftw card and the memory is also cooled by the water cooler with a copper plate so the bs 100% issue was not heat related.



    You can not tell if it is heat related or not in the Hybrid unless you thermal image it in action, it looks like the VRMs are heating up the memory module legs or surrounding PCB possibly causing solder to break or ICs to fail, water cooling the surface might not be of much help.
     
    Thermal imaging of the Hybrid is needed to verify the issue.
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    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:40:12 (permalink)
    AHowes
    Maybe the backplate is holding too much heat.

    Still this is happening (should say was as its been fixed) also on the hybrid ftw card and the memory is also cooled by the water cooler with a copper plate so the bs 100% issue was not heat related.



    There was one guy in the black screen thread that noticed the backplate was very hot since his airflow 'sucked' according to his own words and he put a fan inside his case to just move the air over and under the card and it apparently stopped the black screens. It's only a short term fix though if you ask me because I have quite the airflow on mine (Noctua Industrials + Noctua CPU cooler).
    #7
    AHowes
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:48:25 (permalink)
    :) my air flow was tops as well.. I even had a 140mm fan mounted at the end of the cards blowing directly at them that covered both cards in sli. Always was there with prior 980 sli cards.

    Who knows.

    But that's what happends when you leave the people to use there imagination insted of just informing them what exactly the issue is.

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    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 06:55:35 (permalink)
    AHowes
    But that's what happends when you leave the people to use there imagination insted of just informing them what exactly the issue is.



    Exactly, silence is the worst product policy a manufacturer can practice towards its users, they are silent regarding this and silent regarding the Micron GDDR5 issue, we have been using our imaginations a lot in this doomed Pascal generation because no one is sharing any information with us, we are facing issues that we can only use deductive reasoning to figure out, no one can blame us for making assumptions about the products we own when transparency and information sharing is non-existent!
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    bitxan
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 08:27:30 (permalink)
    Hello, long time I buy EVGA for the excellent support they give their products, in this case I are defrauding much as they do not clarify or fix the problem Micron or high temperatures, hopefully soon give solution to everything and explain that but it is happening and can give order to the stores to give us back the money paid for low quality products.
    Greetings.
    #10
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 08:47:33 (permalink)
    Posted it to r/nvidia on reddit and someone also linked my post from r/teamevga so we'll get more eyes on it the issue, thanks for linking the article to us, mannitu78.
     
    https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/58acqy/evga_1080_ftw_thermal_imaging_might_explain_black/
    post edited by NetQvist - 2016/10/19 09:16:36
    #11
    ksgnow2010
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 09:55:40 (permalink)
    Interesting...
     
    I have a 1080 FTW and have never had any problems.
     
    However, the max temperature my GPU has ever reached under any stress scenario is 65 C...not the 76 C they are reporting (and the card overclocks at 2100 MHz).
     
    So - following the above logic, the max memory temperature would also drop by 11 C...so 106 C to 95 C.
     
    Not sure if I believe the actual chip memory temperature is 106 C though...
    #12
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 10:11:20 (permalink)
    ksgnow2010
    Interesting...
     
    I have a 1080 FTW and have never had any problems.
     
    However, the max temperature my GPU has ever reached under any stress scenario is 65 C...not the 76 C they are reporting (and the card overclocks at 2100 MHz).
     
    So - following the above logic, the max memory temperature would also drop by 11 C...so 106 C to 95 C.
     
    Not sure if I believe the actual chip memory temperature is 106 C though...




    My setup, 3x noctua industrials for case fans: http://i.imgur.com/l8kK4UU.jpg
     
    I was reaching 73 degrees with fans on the gpu at like ~40% boosted to 1962 Mhz, ambient room temp around 22-24 degrees. I only ever tried adding 100+ to the core and that worked without changing anything else in benchmarks. But it went black screen in Tomb Raider at stock and then I just sent it back to my retailer.
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    libneon
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 11:36:25 (permalink)
    My 1070 FTW just caught fire right along that hotspot area...shot out a flame, cooked resistors then died.  :(
    #14
    kin26256832
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 11:39:59 (permalink)
    interesting
     
     





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    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 11:42:53 (permalink)
    NetQvist


    My setup, 3x noctua industrials for case fans: http://i.imgur.com/l8kK4UU.jpg
     
    I was reaching 73 degrees with fans on the gpu at like ~40% boosted to 1962 Mhz, ambient room temp around 22-24 degrees. I only ever tried adding 100+ to the core and that worked without changing anything else in benchmarks. But it went black screen in Tomb Raider at stock and then I just sent it back to my retailer.


    Try adding more fan speed to your gpu. 40% is low. Push it to 60% more air movement will make for more optimal airflow over the gpu.

      <- Clickable link to my Main PC Specs
    #16
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 11:48:54 (permalink)
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist


    My setup, 3x noctua industrials for case fans: http://i.imgur.com/l8kK4UU.jpg
     
    I was reaching 73 degrees with fans on the gpu at like ~40% boosted to 1962 Mhz, ambient room temp around 22-24 degrees. I only ever tried adding 100+ to the core and that worked without changing anything else in benchmarks. But it went black screen in Tomb Raider at stock and then I just sent it back to my retailer.


    Try adding more fan speed to your gpu. 40% is low. Push it to 60% more air movement will make for more optimal airflow over the gpu.



    Already sent it back to the retailer should have a response by the end of the week if I can exchange it for a proper brand. If the card overheats on stock settings without an additional OC in a well ventilated case then it's defective product no questions asked.
    #17
    Greene MaChine
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:14:25 (permalink)
    GamerSX
    ...
    EVGA said that they will not say the reason behind the failure so that people do not attempt to fix it themselves, what else can users fix on a card other than improve the cooling themselves? i don't think that users can go as far as desoldering and replacing components on the PCB.



    Don't fool yourself,  there are always new tech stories, regularly, with people trying various DIY stuff on electronics of every sort trying to fix this or improve that.
    There's probably 20-30% of owners that'll try something, with only 2-5% of them actually knowing how electronics work and how to "properly" repair them.
    Of that, there's another 0.25-1% that can actually repair or substitute a valid working circuit (regulation, filtering, overload-limiting etc.) on a card.
    Of course once you go there, bye-bye warranty.
     
    Don't you reddit ? 
    https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupportgore
     
    Anyways, all of this comes back to heat.
     
    I still find people with High-Performance systems in a sealed box with 1 case fan, wondering why everything is so warm/hot and things crash and fail.
    More fans in the right place, cables re-arranged, more venting if needed, end of problem.
     
    Greene
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    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:14:40 (permalink)
    libneon
    My 1070 FTW just caught fire right along that hotspot area...shot out a flame, cooked resistors then died.  :(




    Here is another case, hope that is not you 
     
    https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/580b8w/welp_my_evga_1070_ftw_just_killed_itself/
     

    #19
    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:19:28 (permalink)
    NetQvist
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist


    My setup, 3x noctua industrials for case fans: http://i.imgur.com/l8kK4UU.jpg

    I was reaching 73 degrees with fans on the gpu at like ~40% boosted to 1962 Mhz, ambient room temp around 22-24 degrees. I only ever tried adding 100+ to the core and that worked without changing anything else in benchmarks. But it went black screen in Tomb Raider at stock and then I just sent it back to my retailer.


    Try adding more fan speed to your gpu. 40% is low. Push it to 60% more air movement will make for more optimal airflow over the gpu.



    Already sent it back to the retailer should have a response by the end of the week if I can exchange it for a proper brand. If the card overheats on stock settings without an additional OC in a well ventilated case then it's defective product no questions asked.


    The fans are meant to go up to 100%. At 40%, they are only meant to keep the temperatures below the 80c mark, and they are doing that. People screamed that they wanted quiet gpu's, so evga made them quiet, and now they are screaming that the card gets hot compared to a GPU with faster/louder fans. The user is required to find the happy median for the best results. Every user will want something different, which is why settings can be changed.

      <- Clickable link to my Main PC Specs
    #20
    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:20:36 (permalink)
    Greene MaChine
    Don't fool yourself



    Who is fooling themselves? do you actually believe that if EVGA told their customers that there is a component on the PCB that is causing the problem, people will actually desolder it and replace it themselves on a brand new $600+ product? you actually believe this is the reason they are not telling?!
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    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:25:10 (permalink)
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist


    My setup, 3x noctua industrials for case fans: http://i.imgur.com/l8kK4UU.jpg

    I was reaching 73 degrees with fans on the gpu at like ~40% boosted to 1962 Mhz, ambient room temp around 22-24 degrees. I only ever tried adding 100+ to the core and that worked without changing anything else in benchmarks. But it went black screen in Tomb Raider at stock and then I just sent it back to my retailer.


    Try adding more fan speed to your gpu. 40% is low. Push it to 60% more air movement will make for more optimal airflow over the gpu.



    Already sent it back to the retailer should have a response by the end of the week if I can exchange it for a proper brand. If the card overheats on stock settings without an additional OC in a well ventilated case then it's defective product no questions asked.


    The fans are meant to go up to 100%. At 40%, they are only meant to keep the temperatures below the 80c mark, and they are doing that. People screamed that they wanted quiet gpu's, so evga made them quiet, and now they are screaming that the card gets hot compared to a GPU with faster/louder fans. The user is required to find the happy median for the best results. Every user will want something different, which is why settings can be changed.



    So you're telling me that unless you make a custom profile for the fan the card will crash/burn/explode if you try use it for any kind of gaming/benchmarking at stock settings in a case with well above average airflow. Wow sounds like a good deal, a stock profile should keep the card safe in a average ventilated case no matter the case.
    #22
    Greene MaChine
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:30:46 (permalink)
    GamerSX
     
    Who is fooling themselves? do you actually believe that if EVGA told their customers that there is a component on the PCB that is causing the problem, people will actually desolder it and replace it themselves on a brand new $600+ product? you actually believe this is the reason they are not telling?!




    I'm sure it's one of them.
    Teenagers, young adults will do some of the dumbest things..  warranty or not.  I know i did.  Long-ago.
     
    There may be other factors involved, like there were on motherboards back in the early to mid 2000s.
    There may be contractual things, to protect brand-names..  kind of like what's happening with the "Note 7"
    There could be other things that we're not privy too.
    At any rate, all this comes back to warranty.
    If your card's not DOA and doesn't die in the first 3 months, it'll probably live a nice long life.
    #23
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:36:10 (permalink)
    Greene MaChine
    GamerSX
     
    Who is fooling themselves? do you actually believe that if EVGA told their customers that there is a component on the PCB that is causing the problem, people will actually desolder it and replace it themselves on a brand new $600+ product? you actually believe this is the reason they are not telling?!




    I'm sure it's one of them.
    Teenagers, young adults will do some of the dumbest things..  warranty or not.  I know i did.  Long-ago.
     
    There may be other factors involved, like there were on motherboards back in the early to mid 2000s.
    There may be contractual things, to protect brand-names..  kind of like what's happening with the "Note 7"
    There could be other things that we're not privy too.
    At any rate, all this comes back to warranty.
    If your card's not DOA and doesn't die in the first 3 months, it'll probably live a nice long life.




    The more I find out the more it seems like every 1080 FTW prior to them "fixing" something is at risk, if you happen to have a good card and very good cooling around the hotter parts shown in the thermal imaging I'm sure it can survive. However any other situation will probably slowly deteriorate the card until it is constantly black screening or worse, burning which I've seen quite a few pictures of lately.
     
     
    #24
    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:36:38 (permalink)
    NetQvist

    So you're telling me that unless you make a custom profile for the fan the card will crash/burn/explode if you try use it for any kind of gaming/benchmarking at stock settings in a case with well above average airflow. Wow sounds like a good deal, a stock profile should keep the card safe in a average ventilated case no matter the case.


    Please do not read into what is wrote. Noone said what you just wrote. There are hundreds of these cards, and a few may have issues. Assuming that because of a few having issues that every single one has it is not correct.

    I have a 1070 ftw and run it at max load nonstop. It has never once over heated and it is on stock profiles. By your account, it should have melted down into a pool of solder already. I haven't turned my computer off in over a month, except for a quick reboot when Windows decided it would update without warning me. The 1070 and 1080 ftw share the same PCB, so the issue should be prevalent on both, but only a few compared to the amount created and sold are experiencing issues.

      <- Clickable link to my Main PC Specs
    #25
    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:38:58 (permalink)
    Greene MaChine
    If your card's not DOA and doesn't die in the first 3 months, it'll probably live a nice long life.

    Not necessarily, my EVGA GTX 780 ACX started badly artifacting and then died after a little over one year, during which time it was giving me nasty coil whine hell and strange ACX cooler pitch changing as RPM changes, i asked EVGA for a different SKU and they insisted in giving me the same exact SKU as a replacement which i did not like, i ended up getting it refunded through my retailer ...
    #26
    NetQvist
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 12:43:25 (permalink)
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist

    So you're telling me that unless you make a custom profile for the fan the card will crash/burn/explode if you try use it for any kind of gaming/benchmarking at stock settings in a case with well above average airflow. Wow sounds like a good deal, a stock profile should keep the card safe in a average ventilated case no matter the case.


    Please do not read into what is wrote. Noone said what you just wrote. There are hundreds of these cards, and a few may have issues. Assuming that because of a few having issues that every single one has it is not correct.

    I have a 1070 ftw and run it at max load nonstop. It has never once over heated and it is on stock profiles. By your account, it should have melted down into a pool of solder already. I haven't turned my computer off in over a month, except for a quick reboot when Windows decided it would update without warning me. The 1070 and 1080 ftw share the same PCB, so the issue should be prevalent on both, but only a few compared to the amount created and sold are experiencing issues.



    You're the one suggesting I would have needed to increase the fan speed more than stock to make the card stable when the card was running at 73 degrees stable at factory clocks, exactly what did I miss-interpret?
    #27
    Greene MaChine
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 13:00:01 (permalink)
    GamerSX
    Not necessarily, my EVGA GTX 780 ACX started badly artifacting and then died after a little over one year, during which time it was giving me nasty coil whine hell and strange ACX cooler pitch changing as RPM changes, i asked EVGA for a different SKU and they insisted in giving me the same exact SKU as a replacement which i did not like, i ended up getting it refunded through my retailer ...

     
    That's normal modern business practices.  I expect return policies like that with anything purchased.
    Your fortunate your retailer did a refund, alot of them nowadays won't.
    Did they ding you a restocking fee ?
    #28
    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 13:34:50 (permalink)
    NetQvist
    Scarlet-Tech
    NetQvist

    So you're telling me that unless you make a custom profile for the fan the card will crash/burn/explode if you try use it for any kind of gaming/benchmarking at stock settings in a case with well above average airflow. Wow sounds like a good deal, a stock profile should keep the card safe in a average ventilated case no matter the case.


    Please do not read into what is wrote. Noone said what you just wrote. There are hundreds of these cards, and a few may have issues. Assuming that because of a few having issues that every single one has it is not correct.

    I have a 1070 ftw and run it at max load nonstop. It has never once over heated and it is on stock profiles. By your account, it should have melted down into a pool of solder already. I haven't turned my computer off in over a month, except for a quick reboot when Windows decided it would update without warning me. The 1070 and 1080 ftw share the same PCB, so the issue should be prevalent on both, but only a few compared to the amount created and sold are experiencing issues.



    You're the one suggesting I would have needed to increase the fan speed more than stock to make the card stable when the card was running at 73 degrees stable at factory clocks, exactly what did I miss-interpret?


    I suggested trying a slightly higher fan speed to lower temps, but since you returned the card, that is obviously impossible to try.

    You stated that it would kill the card at stock. No where did I state that you are required to change anything, yet you state that I said you had to use higher fans speeds.

    If you believe that this is what is killing cards, then I can not change your mind. I was only making a suggestion and showing that not every card is dying at stock settings.  73c is well below the thermal limits, so it may not have been the issue you were experiencing.  Without the card, there is no way to test other things to see if something else (Micron Memory Issue) was causing the problem. (Micron issue was much more prevalent)
    post edited by Scarlet-Tech - 2016/10/19 14:00:08

      <- Clickable link to my Main PC Specs
    #29
    GamerSX
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    Re: bad(HOT) PCB Layout on GTX 1070 FTW? 2016/10/19 13:36:55 (permalink)
    Greene MaChine
    That's normal modern business practices.  I expect return policies like that with anything purchased.
    Your fortunate your retailer did a refund, alot of them nowadays won't.
    Did they ding you a restocking fee ?



    restocking fee in a warranty case? how? anyways i am in the EU so we do not have the concept of a restocking fee here even during the first 14 or 30 days return period, all they did was give me about 80% of what i originally paid because i have used the product for one year, so they deducted that, still a pretty good deal for having the freedom of buying any other product i wanted instead of being stuck with a problematic SKU ... 
    #30
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