It looks like everyone is standing strong and not feeding the scalpers even though inventory is as low as I've seen any top tier cards ever , Makes me wonder what the demand is that is left, 2 months after launch.  If they dropped 20k cards on Tuesday would there still be inventory after 2 hours or even by the end of the day, and is AMD's launch going to be a vapor launch as most rumors point to no AIB stock appreciably available until mid January?
We will see next week.

Gross margin = revenue (from goods in this case) - cost to create goods / revenue (from goods in this case)

What is the problem? It shows the overall margin of the whole company. For a company which creates products, the overall margin of the whole company is directly related to the profit margin of each product. One is granular, one is all-encompassing. If you are a company which produces products, you can't have a huge gross margin without having a huge profit margin. I don't know why yahoo claims 20% and JPR indicates much higher. Gross margin and profit margin are not so different fundamentally to produce such different numbers.

Let's look at the 4090. We estimate the production cost of the core at $350. Add $50 for the other jellybean components. Add $50 for the rest. Above 70% profit margin.

$350 is a good educated guess on the core. Let's say it's $400 just for the sake of argument.

$100 is still a good educated guess for jellybean + the rest at high volume, making the core still around 75% the product's cost. Fine, let's say jellybean + the rest is $150.

Now we are at $550 in cost and the profit margin is 65%. Still in line with what was expected.

Lower-end cards have a lower profit margin, but the professional/enterprise cards have a ridiculous profit margin (at lower volume), so that kind of offsets it. Overall, I would expect the higher-end gamer cards' profit margin to be in line with overall profit margin. Over 50%, without a doubt. Probably significantly higher, as stated. No way can it only be 20%; that's ridiculous.

If NVIDIA can sell a lower-end product, using the same technology and similar manufacturing, around $450 and make a profit on it, it's hard to see how they could not be making a killing on 4080s and 4090s. Sure, the jellybean parts are a little better and the cooler is a little better, but it is high volume and the price of $2 dollars for some VRM, doubled for some better VRM, doesn't suddenly add up to $200.

If the profit margin of the 4090 is 20%, then the profit margin of the 3060 is -500%. You know NVIDIA wouldn't let that happen.

ty_ger07
Gross margin = revenue (from goods in this case) - cost to create goods / revenue (from goods in this case)

What is the problem? It shows the overall margin of the whole company. For a company which creates products, the overall margin of the whole company is directly related to the profit margin of each product. One is granular, one is all-encompassing. If you are a company which produces products, you can't have a huge gross margin without having a huge profit margin. I don't know why yahoo claims 20% and JPR indicates much higher. Gross margin and profit margin are not so different fundamentally to produce such different numbers.

Let's look at the 4090. We estimate the production cost of the core at $350. Add $50 for the other jellybean components. Add $50 for the rest. Above 70% profit margin.

$350 is a good educated guess on the core. Let's say it's $400 just for the sake of argument.

$100 is still a good educated guess for jellybean + the rest at high volume, making the core still around 75% the product's cost. Fine, let's say jellybean + the rest is $150.

Now we are at $550 in cost and the profit margin is 65%. Still in line with what was expected.

Lower-end cards have a lower profit margin, but the professional/enterprise cards have a ridiculous profit margin (at lower volume), so that kind of offsets it. Overall, I would expect the higher-end gamer cards' profit margin to be in line with overall profit margin. Over 50%, without a doubt. Probably significantly higher, as stated. No way can it only be 20%; that's ridiculous.

If NVIDIA can sell a lower-end product, using the same technology and similar manufacturing, around $450 and make a profit on it, it's hard to see how they could not be making a killing on 4080s and 4090s. Sure, the jellybean parts are a little better and the cooler is a little better, but it is high volume and the price of $2 dollars for some VRM, doubled for some better VRM, doesn't suddenly add up to $200.

If the profit margin of the 4090 is 20%, then the profit margin of the 3060 is -500%. You know NVIDIA wouldn't let that happen.

All of that is your speculation. You don't have the actual numbers. There are plenty of expenses in building a product, especially Research and Development (R&D). What you described is mostly to calculate the Gross Margin, the profit of manufacturing an individual product minus the direct cost of building that product. This is why we calculate the Profit Margin in finance, which also includes the cost of R&D, and other indirect costs/overhead.
 

redteamgo

LFaWolf
NVIDIA Profit Margin is 20% - https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NVDA/key-statistics?p=NVDA
 
Profit Margin is NOT the same as Gross Margin.  Educate yourself, please.
https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/good-profit-margin-for-product#:~:text=Gross%20margin%20shows%20how%20profitable,from%20each%20sale%20they%20make.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/122314/what-difference-between-gross-margin-and-profit-margin.asp
  

why would you include buybacks, RSUs, exec comp and other noise in product margins?  brainless.  how about you educate yourself or better yet dont and stay dumb

Seeing that you don't even know how a business is run, I don't think I am the dumbass here.  Look in the mirror if you are in need of one though, you might find one there. 
 
If you don't pay the executives, who are going to determine what products to build? Who are going to have the long-term vision of the roadmaps, who are going to run a multi-billion enterprise?
 
There are plenty of expenses in building a product, especially Research and Development. Those GPUs don't just magically appear out of thin air with a wand unless you are five years old.
 
Are you? Hmmm 

ty_ger07
If you want to avoid "speculation" based on industry sources, data available, researchers, and industry standard practices, it's still easy to determine that the profit margin for the 4090 is really high for NVIDIA. If the 3060 makes profit, the 4090 makes a ton of profit.

Fine, the 3060 makes -500% profit. Makes sense.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say. Sure, the 4090 is more profitable per unit than the 3060, even at the same profit margin percentage, because it has a higher msrp than the 3060. Simple math. But they probably sell more units of 3060. So?

ty_ger07

LFaWolf

ty_ger07
If you want to avoid "speculation" based on industry sources, data available, researchers, and industry standard practices, it's still easy to determine that the profit margin for the 4090 is really high for NVIDIA. If the 3060 makes profit, the 4090 makes a ton of profit.

Fine, the 3060 makes -500% profit. Makes sense.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say. Sure, the 4090 is more profitable per unit than the 3060, even at the same profit margin percentage, because it has a higher msrp than the 3060. Simple math. But they probably sell more units of 3060. So?

Read what I wrote above "speculating" about costs. It doesn't cost NVIDIA $700 more to make a 4090. What I said was said pretty clearly. There is no reason for me to try to say it again. If the 3060 makes a profit, the 4090 makes a huge profit, not only 20%.

Then read my original post again. I was simply stating that profit margin is NOT the same as gross margin, nothing more, nothing less. It was to distinguish the terms, as you were using them interchangeably. 
 
More fun financial stuff - a premium product usually carries a higher gross margin than a lower-end product, as the cost to produce it is usually not proportionate to the higher premium price.  If a company could do it, it would produce mostly premium products, as it is the case for Apple until recently. Gross margin is useful to gauge a company's production/manufacturing efficiency. Profit margin is more useful to gauge the overall health of a company, as it factors in all the related costs such as logistics, R&D, payrolls, etc. Profit margin is more meaningful for finance.
 
Savvy?
 
 

LFaWolf

ty_ger07

LFaWolf

ty_ger07
If you want to avoid "speculation" based on industry sources, data available, researchers, and industry standard practices, it's still easy to determine that the profit margin for the 4090 is really high for NVIDIA. If the 3060 makes profit, the 4090 makes a ton of profit.

Fine, the 3060 makes -500% profit. Makes sense.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say. Sure, the 4090 is more profitable per unit than the 3060, even at the same profit margin percentage, because it has a higher msrp than the 3060. Simple math. But they probably sell more units of 3060. So?

Read what I wrote above "speculating" about costs. It doesn't cost NVIDIA $700 more to make a 4090. What I said was said pretty clearly. There is no reason for me to try to say it again. If the 3060 makes a profit, the 4090 makes a huge profit, not only 20%.

Then read my original post again. I was simply stating that profit margin is NOT the same as gross margin, nothing more, nothing less. It was to distinguish the terms, as you were using them interchangeably. 
 
More fun financial stuff - a premium product usually carries a higher gross margin than a lower-end product, as the cost to produce it is usually not proportionate to the higher premium price.  If a company could do it, it would produce mostly premium products, as it is the case for Apple until recently. Gross margin is useful to gauge a company's production/manufacturing efficiency. Profit margin is more useful to gauge the overall health of a company, as it factors in all the related costs such as logistics, R&D, payrolls, etc. Profit margin is more meaningful for finance.
 
Savvy?
 
 

everyone knows that gross is not the same as net.  you act condescending, get you condescending. know what operating margin would be if they only sold 3060s?  20% -  scale would adapt to acceptable free cashflow.  stupid conversation with stupid people from california.

redteamgo

LFaWolf

ty_ger07

LFaWolf

ty_ger07
If you want to avoid "speculation" based on industry sources, data available, researchers, and industry standard practices, it's still easy to determine that the profit margin for the 4090 is really high for NVIDIA. If the 3060 makes profit, the 4090 makes a ton of profit.

Fine, the 3060 makes -500% profit. Makes sense.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say. Sure, the 4090 is more profitable per unit than the 3060, even at the same profit margin percentage, because it has a higher msrp than the 3060. Simple math. But they probably sell more units of 3060. So?

Read what I wrote above "speculating" about costs. It doesn't cost NVIDIA $700 more to make a 4090. What I said was said pretty clearly. There is no reason for me to try to say it again. If the 3060 makes a profit, the 4090 makes a huge profit, not only 20%.

Then read my original post again. I was simply stating that profit margin is NOT the same as gross margin, nothing more, nothing less. It was to distinguish the terms, as you were using them interchangeably. 
 
More fun financial stuff - a premium product usually carries a higher gross margin than a lower-end product, as the cost to produce it is usually not proportionate to the higher premium price.  If a company could do it, it would produce mostly premium products, as it is the case for Apple until recently. Gross margin is useful to gauge a company's production/manufacturing efficiency. Profit margin is more useful to gauge the overall health of a company, as it factors in all the related costs such as logistics, R&D, payrolls, etc. Profit margin is more meaningful for finance.
 
Savvy?
 
 

everyone knows that gross is not the same as net.  you act condescending, get you condescending. know what operating margin would be if they only sold 3060s?  20% -  scale would adapt to acceptable free cashflow.  stupid conversation with stupid people from california.

 
Nope, not the way that the terms were used incorrectly, and you dismissed R&D and other expenses as noise in this thread, you don't know what you are talking about. So pointing out a discrepancy in the thread is condescending? Did I hurt your feelings? Awww, can I send you a virtual cookie as a peace offering? It is chocolate chips too, but just don't eat it right before dinner. It will ruin your appetite.
 
Ah, you are angry with California and Californians. To be fair, there are good people in other parts of the United States (and the world), and there are many douchebags like you in California as well. 
 

ty_ger07

LFaWolf
Then read my original post again. I was simply stating that profit margin is NOT the same as gross margin, nothing more, nothing less. It was to distinguish the terms, as you were using them interchangeably. 

I was responding to dragomirc hastily with evidence which indirectly backs up what I was stating. Since you replied with a counter-point to that, I assumed that you were of the same stance as dragomirc. I didn't realize that you were off on your own with no stance.

It is all good. I am not pro NVIDIA or AMD. I have GPUs from both companies.
 

Anyone see an XTX this morning , only thing I saw was XT . That went way faster than the 4090 despite Tom's hardware reporting much higher numbers, ain't no way the numbers were there.

kraade
Anyone see an XTX this morning , only thing I saw was XT . That went way faster than the 4090 despite Tom's hardware reporting much higher numbers, ain't no way the numbers were there.

i saw the 7900 XT on amd direct, but didn't want that one so passed. no XTX there. F5'd newegg for maybe 30 mins and saw the XFX 7900 XTX add to cart button appear once, it was gone the next F5.
 
looks like scalpers got most of these based on the lower prices. no hurry for me, if i even bother. really like the aqua OC and red devil if i have to choose

zippytek

kraade
Anyone see an XTX this morning , only thing I saw was XT . That went way faster than the 4090 despite Tom's hardware reporting much higher numbers, ain't no way the numbers were there.

i saw the 7900 XT on amd direct, but didn't want that one so passed. no XTX there. F5'd newegg for maybe 30 mins and saw the XFX 7900 XTX add to cart button appear once, it was gone the next F5.
 
looks like scalpers got most of these based on the lower prices. no hurry for me, if i even bother. really like the aqua OC and red devil if i have to choose

I looked to see if I could find the listings at 8:30-45 and searching would not populate anything, at about 4min after Newegg said sold out of all the XTX and had several XTs available but it just errored when you would add it to cart, went over and saw the XT on the AMD store, way worse launch for the consumer this time, I don't know why anyone would try to scalp these when the only reason to buy one is it's barely a value to some, Leaker says they are shipping 200k units by year end but it looked nothing like that this morning .  4090s have dried up  entirely, I think they are both playing the artificial demand card to see if they can move old stock.

ty_ger07
I wonder why people assume whether a buyer is a scalper. It's way too soon to make such a determination.

because scalpers are basic. they don't care what the product is, if it's limited stock and has the right profit margin, they will buy as much stock as they're capable of. did you already forget the 30 series bots? where do you think those bots went? they're highly configurable and can be repurposed to buy anything with a URL.
 
7900 XTX:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=7900+XTX&_sacat=0
 
7900 XT:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=7900+XT&_sacat=0
 
4090:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=4090&_sacat=0
 
Scalpers do not get all of the stock at launch. They get plenty, though. Humans can't compete with bots. We can go to microcenter, sure, but scalpers can go there too. Scalping is very profitable and someone capable can easily do this without other income.
 

kraade
 
I looked to see if I could find the listings at 8:30-45 and searching would not populate anything, at about 4min after Newegg said sold out of all the XTX and had several XTs available but it just errored when you would add it to cart, went over and saw the XT on the AMD store, way worse launch for the consumer this time, I don't know why anyone would try to scalp these when the only reason to buy one is it's barely a value to some, Leaker says they are shipping 200k units by year end but it looked nothing like that this morning .  4090s have dried up  entirely, I think they are both playing the artificial demand card to see if they can move old stock.

yep, i'm not particularly thirsty for a 7000 series card, but will probably buy one if they have stock at some point. The draw is the price point, and based on the reseller markups, they're not very profitable in that space either.
 
what I really want is that 4090 HOF 

zippytek

ty_ger07
I wonder why people assume whether a buyer is a scalper. It's way too soon to make such a determination.

because scalpers are basic. they don't care what the product is, if it's limited stock and has the right profit margin, they will buy as much stock as they're capable of. did you already forget the 30 series bots? where do you think those bots went? they're highly configurable and can be repurposed to buy anything with a URL.
 
7900 XTX:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=7900+XTX&_sacat=0
 
7900 XT:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=7900+XT&_sacat=0
 
4090:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?nkw=4090&_sacat=0
 
Scalpers do not get all of the stock at launch. They get plenty, though. Humans can't compete with bots. We can go to microcenter, sure, but scalpers can go there too. Scalping is very profitable and someone capable can easily do this without other income.
 

This right here. 100%
 
And alot of them are regretting their decisions.  
 
Regrets #1
 
Regrets #2

Yeah I finally decided to take the plunge and update to a 4090 thinking it has been a couple of months so maybe will not be too difficult to find a card I want. Boy was I wrong.
I hate scalpers!! I would not buy a card from them even if only 20 bucks over retail. 
So looks like I will be waiting a while longer.

kraade
It looks like everyone is standing strong and not feeding the scalpers even though inventory is as low as I've seen any top tier cards ever , Makes me wonder what the demand is that is left, 2 months after launch.  If they dropped 20k cards on Tuesday would there still be inventory after 2 hours or even by the end of the day, and is AMD's launch going to be a vapor launch as most rumors point to no AIB stock appreciably available until mid January?
We will see next week.

Curious if you have a reliable source stating that the next round of 4090's would go out mid January?  I've heard some buzz from internet rando's about the same, but nothing substantiated yet.  I'm still on the hunt for a 4090 Suprim X and refuse to pay scalper prices.
 
Also starting to wonder if TSMC yields were just way lower than expected (hence having way more availability on 4080/4070ti models).   I'm sure many of the U.S. bound chips meant for EVGA just went to the other AIB's and were just not allocated back to US supply, but that is just a thought.
 
Since the 3090ti launch went fairly well in regards to preventing scalping, I was sorta hoping 4090 would be similar...  (albeit were talking different Fab's these are produced at).  I keep going back to that there must be another issue like low/bad yields.

yaymz
Also starting to wonder if TSMC yields were just way lower than expected (hence having way more availability on 4080/4070ti models).   I'm sure many of the U.S. bound chips meant for EVGA just went to the other AIB's and were just not allocated back to US supply, but that is just a thought.

NVIDIA said that they would purposely limit supply in order to maintain higher pricing and profit margin. I believe that TSMC is producing the quantity that they contractually agreed to, and NVIDIA is sitting on stock as necessary to maintain pricing.

I think that the reason 4080s were sitting on shelves is due to poor perceived value. Why buy a 4080 when a 4090 is only a bit more expensive? Anyone who has been waiting on a 4090, has just been patiently waiting on other options. It's only after AMD's offering was similarly lackluster that 4080s started selling more.

At least that's my perspective.