rain2_usa
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/13 20:03:17
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Airikay
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/13 20:14:44
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rain2_usa
This report seems to be true and this one is from Dec 2019. Samsung gets a small order and TSMC gets the rest in 2021.
https://www.tweaktown.com...ampere-gpus/index.html
Just going to point out GTC is normally directed towards professionals(AI, DL, etc.) So you really need to look at context. GA100 is TSMC. A6000 etc are Samsung.
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dcell
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/13 20:15:04
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ZiLLA7
Great, what's next?
You will be on the list to receive the 7nm card. Except, China will invade Taiwan just before it's released. The US Government will declare China an adversary and forbid Taiwanese products. Shortly thereafter, your card will then become discontinued, and the robotic singularity will begin, which means you'll receive your card, but Teledyne will have taken over the world. If you insert the card into a running PC on the Internet, robotic drones will capture you. Your only hope will be to send yourself back into the 90's to assassinate the scientists working at Teledyne. After that you'll be stuck with on-board graphics the rest of your life, just waiting for the internet to come back so you can play Duke Nukem online.
12G-P5-3967-KR 6/3/2021 10:47:02 AM PT No12G-P5-3969-KR 6/3/2021 10:46:49 AM PT No12G-P5-3968-KR 6/3/2021 10:46:37 AM PT No12G-P5-3958-KR 6/3/2021 10:46:16 AM PT No10G-P5-3897-KR 10/8/2020 1:01:45 AM PT10G-P5-3895-KR 10/8/2020 1:03:50 AM PT 10G-P5-3898-KR 1/30/2021 5:30:33 PM PT 10G-P5-3888-KR 2/10/2021 1:35:14 PM PT
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MatthewAMEL
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/13 21:11:36
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rain2_usa
This report seems to be true and this one is from Dec 2019. Samsung gets a small order and TSMC gets the rest in 2021.
https://www.tweaktown.com...ampere-gpus/index.html
You didn't actually read it did you? It was from 12/2019. And it's obviously been proven false, because Samsung doesn't make any Nvidia products on 7nm.
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kougar
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 01:54:33
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Techpowerup is running their own story, but I can't find the DigiTimes article they're claiming it's based on. While the report is in question there is actual reason NVIDIA would wish to do this. Transistor density (MTr/mm2) TSMC N7FF 96.5 vs Intel 10nm 100.76 TSMC's 5nm is ~173, and Samsung's 5LPE is 127 Guess what Samsung's 8nm is? ~61 MTr/mm2. Lower is NOT better. NVIDIA would realize a full node shrink by adopting TSMC 7nm. NVIDIA is already in hot water with how badly the 3000 launch is going, they would burn plenty more bridges by re-releasing Ampere on TSMC 7nm in six months....
 Have water, will cool.
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jp_no10
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 02:28:04
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Nvidia probably can't release on TSMC 7nm as the rules for making a chip are going to be completely different from that of Samsung modified 10nm and that would take a lot of engineering to be done, you'll see Nvidia back on TSMC for the next-gen could be 7nm or 5nm.
As for super variants... I find it really hard to believe that there will be many, or that if they come they will be substantially faster than their non-super counterparts... the 3090's die is almost the full die(and as @kougar points out the density is very low and thus we get these huge dies) so we won't see anything bigger than the 3090 so no 3090 ti's or supers, the difference in perf from the 3080 to 3090 is only 10% and it has 20% more cuda cores, I find it more likely that Nvidia will remove 12 modules of the 3090 and release a 3080ti with the cuda cores of the 3090 but 12 gigs of gddr6x.
As you go lower down the product stack it becomes harder to guess and tbf any guess is as good or better than mine anyways, but nvidia might just stick to releasing versions with more memory or even lower tier cards with gddr6x.
Of course with anything this is speculation and as such should be treated as such, who knows maybe Nvidia planned to release on tsmc all along and will with ampere, but that would cause a lot of angry people.
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dominic2189
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 02:38:23
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ReZpawN
One of the engineers that worked for nvidia said this is most likely new architecture and not current 3000 series gpu
That sounds more reasonable. Must be Hopper 5nm then I'm guessing
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Sajin
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 03:03:44
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Lol. New architecture in first half of 2021? Why even buy now with the shortages and all? So ampere is looking to be a 6 month cash grab?
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Sixtus23
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 03:46:39
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Any tangible news about the GA103 die?
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riku98523
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 03:57:29
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Sajin
Lol. New architecture in first half of 2021? Why even buy now with the shortages and all? So ampere is looking to be a 6 month cash grab?
No. Nvidia doesn't just stop after releasing a new product. They likely already have a small team on the next generation of gpus. Once the current releases most people will move to working on the next while a small team stays on current to work on bugs and support. Companies like Nvidia are always thinking ahead. They have to be working on what comes next before they even finish what is coming now. It takes time to do all the r&d and stuff. Ampere would have been in development during 20 series. Hell they might even have some work done on what comes after 40 series.
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kougar
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 04:08:28
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NVIDIA waits two years between replacing architectures. And since NVIDIA just killed off the Quadro branding, it seems even less likely to be some new design that runs alongside existing stuff like what happened with Volta.
If NVIDIA knew that Samsung couldn't supply enough volume then I could see them outsourcing orders to TSMC, but that's still a lot of trouble. Apple (and I think AMD?) have dual-sourced chips in the past, but it's expensive to do so. Could just be NVIDIA got a better price offer and will make its midrange and budget models at TSMC...
Have water, will cool.
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slapn
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 05:41:13
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I believe nvidia is gonna be createing there own soonish. They just bought a manufacturing plant
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ehabash1
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 06:36:41
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To be completely fair,
Samsung 8nm is more like 7.9nm while tsmc 7nm is more like 7.6nm
so the difference is less than you think
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MatthewAMEL
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 06:45:39
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No they aren’t. They didn’t buy a foundry. They bought ARM. ARM is an IP company.
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buttabean
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 06:56:05
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MatthewAMEL
No they aren’t. They didn’t buy a foundry. They bought ARM. ARM is an IP company.
If you read all the nonsense people post, you have to wonder if all these rumors are formed in the same fashion. Half read business briefs that some guy sees something without any knowledge and is quick to judge then that guy tells his friend who tells someone who writes for a blog something stretched further from the truth. It's the game of telephone.
Associate Discount Code: KQ9JGG4415FXHVQ
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Frammish
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 07:20:06
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I’ve heard similar from a good source. My guess is the super/ti will be TSMC. It looks like the current 3000 series has flaws (opportunities for improvement) and new boards and chips might get Nvidia where they originally wanted to go - 2.1+ GHz.
The current boards and chips are mostly ok. Companies are RMA’ing boards that can’t run clean. The whole cap flap points to a design issue of some kind that wasn’t caught early, most likely thanks to Nvidia rushing to try to beat AMD. I think Igor called it. There are likely underlying power design issues.
We don’t know the TSMC rumor for certain, though. Nvidia sure isn’t saying. It would collapse sales of cards now if true and Nvidia and partners have millions of dollars tied up in this production run. None will want to burn that.
There will always be faster cards in the future so this isn’t all that different. People just need to look for good customer support and easy RMAs in case one is necessary. There are reports of cards that won’t even hit spec out there and some manufacturers “let“ you RMA through retail outlets that have no stock. JacobF routinely tells twitter users with bad cards to RMA direct to EVGA, though.
It‘s a tough call. Nobody wants to pay these prices for possibly lame cards that could soon be superseded and do have a bit of a cloud over them thanks to Nvidia’s silence. But it is still just rumor. Good cards will still run.
I’m still planning to buy the 3090 FTW3 Ultra just as soon as I get my notification email. It should be a fine card and I am confident EVGA will take care of me if there are any issues. No way I’d buy a card from another manufacturer who doesn’t take care of their customers the same way. Just in case.
When the TSMC Supers come out, if that is even a thing, I’ll just upgrade again and sell my 3090.
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kevinc313
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 07:54:49
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MatthewAMEL
Folks...this thread would be funny, but it’s not.
TSMC does produce the A100 on 7nm.
The G102/104 was taped out from the start on Samsung’s 8nm. You cannot just switch.
Apple designs chips, TSMC produces them all.
I don't know, so I'm going to take a wild guess.......do you think it's possible that during the development process Nvidia continued work on 7nm/TSMC versions of the GA102 and GA104 designs? Nvidia has considerable design resources yet few foundries that can produce their chips, considering the 8nm Samsung choice was a risk, would they not hedge their bets by having a 7nm TSMC version tee'd up and ready for tape out?
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Sanctuary
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 07:59:09
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turboD
LINK - Guru3D
This release just became even worse. I feel like this BETA Samsung edition that all of us are trying to get a hold of will be replaced by more power efficient and higher frequency 7nm TSCM edition in 2021. What's even worse is that I fear this will depreciate all the Samsung edition versions from this year.
I called this in the queue thread where people kept saying that they were waiting for the "20gb" or "Ti" and I said that likely isn't going to happen and at best Nvidia will do a 7nm refresh where it's the same card with much less power draw and slightly more overclocking headroom. 7nm was what Ampere was originally planned for anyway, but they got greedy, gambled and lost and then just went ahead with 8nm anyway.
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MatthewAMEL
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 08:12:51
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kevinc313
MatthewAMEL
Folks...this thread would be funny, but it’s not.
TSMC does produce the A100 on 7nm.
The G102/104 was taped out from the start on Samsung’s 8nm. You cannot just switch.
Apple designs chips, TSMC produces them all.
I don't know, so I'm going to take a wild guess.......do you think it's possible that during the development process Nvidia continued work on 7nm/TSMC versions of the GA102 and GA104 designs? Nvidia has considerable design resources yet few foundries that can produce their chips, considering the 8nm Samsung choice was a risk, would they not hedge their bets by having a 7nm TSMC version tee'd up and ready for tape out?
Perfectly reasonable question. However, the inner workings of foundries are Trade Secrets respective to each. That would mean Nvidia would have to keep the design teams totally separate. They could not share information at all or even pass information through a third-party. So, the odds of the two designs being identical (except for process node) are slim. It could be done (parallel design teams), but AFAIK, it's never been done once a product has reached market. There is no doubt that Nvidia screwed up with Ampere. Being forced to use Samsung 8nm (which is really just a refined 10nm) has hurt the end product. Ampere was designed to hit specific power/thermal targets and the inferior node pushed them past those targets. Combine that with GDDR6X and you see why we have 450W cards acting like space heaters. BTW - this was entirely Nvidia's doing. They pushed TSMC too hard on pricing not realizing just how cozy AMD and TSMC were getting.
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kevinc313
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 08:46:26
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MatthewAMEL
kevinc313
MatthewAMEL
Folks...this thread would be funny, but it’s not.
TSMC does produce the A100 on 7nm.
The G102/104 was taped out from the start on Samsung’s 8nm. You cannot just switch.
Apple designs chips, TSMC produces them all.
I don't know, so I'm going to take a wild guess.......do you think it's possible that during the development process Nvidia continued work on 7nm/TSMC versions of the GA102 and GA104 designs? Nvidia has considerable design resources yet few foundries that can produce their chips, considering the 8nm Samsung choice was a risk, would they not hedge their bets by having a 7nm TSMC version tee'd up and ready for tape out?
Perfectly reasonable question.
However, the inner workings of foundries are Trade Secrets respective to each. That would mean Nvidia would have to keep the design teams totally separate. They could not share information at all or even pass information through a third-party. So, the odds of the two designs being identical (except for process node) are slim.
It could be done (parallel design teams), but AFAIK, it's never been done once a product has reached market.
There is no doubt that Nvidia screwed up with Ampere. Being forced to use Samsung 8nm (which is really just a refined 10nm) has hurt the end product. Ampere was designed to hit specific power/thermal targets and the inferior node pushed them past those targets. Combine that with GDDR6X and you see why we have 450W cards acting like space heaters.
BTW - this was entirely Nvidia's doing. They pushed TSMC too hard on pricing not realizing just how cozy AMD and TSMC were getting.
Right - could they have figured out, say 6 months ago or longer, that they did not get the results they were happy with on 8nm, then accelerated their 7nm efforts? They released the GA100 on May 14th, 2020, so wouldn't they have the design resources available to do the smaller chips in 7nm for 2021 release?
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Frammish
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 08:46:28
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Totally agree. This is on Nvidia. Board partners were shafted and so were end users. And bet a donut Jensen couldn’t care less. He is selling chips as fast as Samsung can make them.
Earnings calls might be interesting, though. We may get a better idea what is going on when they report details of these quarters.
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crazyst888
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 08:48:24
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there is Samsung 5nm, is online or coming online soon.
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kevinc313
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 08:55:56
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Frammish
Totally agree. This is on Nvidia. Board partners were shafted and so were end users. And bet a donut Jensen couldn’t care less. He is selling chips as fast as Samsung can make them.
Earnings calls might be interesting, though. We may get a better idea what is going on when they report details of these quarters.
Don't be too hard on them. They need to make and sell chips. There is demand for chips. They want to sell the best chip they can, but sometimes can't make the best chip they can, but they still have to sell it.
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glocked89
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 09:11:15
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Huh? Why do these tech websites report on unsubstantiated rumors and why do so many take it as fact? Here is the link dated 2020-10-08, https://www.digitimes.com.tw/tech/dt/n/shwnws.asp?CnlID=1&Cat=40&id=0000595527_V0S6A1UA1TFVTO8VXV316&cf=A11 Here is the google translated SENTENCE everyone is reporting on, " It has also been reported that NVIDIA’s previous annual masterpiece RTX 30 series uses Samsung Electronics’ 8nm process at a considerable OEM discount, but will switch to TSMC’s 7nm process in 2021."
post edited by glocked89 - 2020/10/14 09:18:10
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Frammish
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 11:33:18
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The second paragraph is also interesting:
”It has also been reported that NVIDIA’s previous annual masterpiece RTX 30 series uses Samsung Electronics’ 8nmprocess at a considerable OEM discount, but will switch to TSMC’s 7nm process in 2021. The order volume is not less.”
”The reason for NVIDIA's transfer of orders is that TSMC's 7nm offer is relatively close to the people, and the other is that it has previously planned to diversify risks to deal with Samsung's 8nm yield problem. The NVIDIA 7nm large order is also one of TSMC's important customers to maintain high-end 7nm capacity utilization in 2021.”
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Frammish
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 12:00:29
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kevinc313
Don't be too hard on them. They need to make and sell chips. There is demand for chips. They want to sell the best chip they can, but sometimes can't make the best chip they can, but they still have to sell it.
I agree with you. No design is perfect. Upper limits on clock speeds get imposed by something. Companies need to work to deadlines. People with problems tend to be more vocal than those without. But the capacitor thing revealed insufficient testing before going to production. Finding that in validation and testing is one thing but board partners had to grab inventory back and rework it.
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aka_STEVE_b
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 12:14:18
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Sajin
Lol. New architecture in first half of 2021? Why even buy now with the shortages and all? So ampere is looking to be a 6 month cash grab?
Definitely looking like nvidia went with Samsung limited partnership just to get something out the door for the reviewers / news sites before AMD cards came out . Now that they have benchmark numbers out proving their case in point of a great core architecture -- start switching over to a production facility that can meet their full demands . I guess it's a good thing I haven't been able to get a card.  https://www.techspot.com/...e-production-next.html
post edited by aka_STEVE_b - 2020/10/14 12:21:31
AMD RYZEN 9 5900X 12-core cpu~ ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero ~ EVGA RTX 3080 Ti FTW3~ G.SKILL Trident Z NEO 32GB DDR4-3600 ~ Phanteks Eclipse P400s red case ~ EVGA SuperNOVA 1000 G+ PSU ~ Intel 660p M.2 drive~ Crucial MX300 275 GB SSD ~WD 2TB SSD ~CORSAIR H115i RGB Pro XT 280mm cooler ~ CORSAIR Dark Core RGB Pro mouse ~ CORSAIR K68 Mech keyboard ~ HGST 4TB Hd.~ AOC AGON 32" monitor 1440p @ 144Hz ~ Win 10 x64
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OnlyLifeshop
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 12:27:40
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The source of the linked article is DigiTimes. The largest shareholder of DigiTimes is TSMC. DigiTimes always spread fake news to degrade Samsung's products. There have been several rumors during that time, and among them, the latest rumor was that it was going to win an order for Nvidia's chip from TSMC. But Samsung took it. Now,, spread rumors again.
post edited by OnlyLifeshop - 2020/10/14 12:36:50
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gimeno
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 12:41:18
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MatthewAMEL
Folks...this thread would be funny, but it’s not.
TSMC does produce the A100 on 7nm.
The G102/104 was taped out from the start on Samsung’s 8nm. You cannot just switch.
Apple designs chips, TSMC produces them all.
From what I've heard, both Samsung and TSMC have proprietary technologies in their fabs and, therefore, companies that create designs for these fabs must separate their design teams so as to not inadvertently share any proprietary information that's unique to one and not the other. That would mean that Nvidia has already designed (past tense) Ampere for both 7nm TSMC and 8nm Samsung. This isn't really anything new, as you pointed out, Nvidia is already using TSMC on their higher-end Ampere based AI cards. We also knew that Samsung's 8nm would be used on their lower-end cards. That said, I don't know what to believe right now with Nvidia except that they seem to be panicking over Big Navi, and (from a business point of view) I'm not sure I understand re-releasing a (new) product on a competing fab as that would cannibalize their own sales more than AMD's while pissing off customers, and potentially leaving their AIB partners with out-dated 8nm stock they have to discount. But, part of me believes that this rumor is baseless and is just a diversionary tactic since it was just realized that the GPU AMD teased last week was NOT their top-tier 80 compute unit GPU. In other words, Nvidia is panicking because the card AMD teased was comparable to the 3080, and that was their 72 compute unit RDNA2 card, so how will the 80 compute unit card perform given that it has 11% more cores? Will it top even the 3090? After all, AMD kept their huge improvement in gaming a secret until last week when they shared that the 5000-series CPU's will be up to 30% faster in popular games over their (already competitive) 3000-series. AMD basically made a fool of Intel last week and maybe Nvidia is worried that the pranksters at AMD are about to egg and TP Nvidia's house. 2020... the year AMD used up the entire supply of luck on themselves...
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DarkTAO
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Re: NVIDIA Allegedly Moving Ampere to 7nm TSMC in 2021
2020/10/14 14:06:50
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HawkOculus
Missing out on launch seems like a blessing in disguise now. It’s gonna take forever to fulfill my preorder as it is anyway. I may just wait and see what the future holds. My 2080 Ti should be able to hold me over I think. lol
Also glad I didn't step up and skipped buying a 2 series card. Though it would be nice to have a 2080Ti as a fallback. Seems like I'll be gaming on my 1080 that much longer. Really glad the launch was such a horribly handled mess after all the issues that have presented. Something seems to be really messed up with the 3 series cards.
24G-P5-3987-KR09/24/2020 01:16:10 PM PT Yes Delivered 17 Hours From Purchase Intel i9-9900K EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra EVGA CLC-280 Asus PG279Q LG CX OLED 55" EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra/Hybrid Cooler Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master 32GB G.Skill TridentZ DDR4 3600 EVGA Supernova 850 T2 Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVMe M.2 SSD Samsung 850 pro 512GB SSD Samsung 840 500GB SSD 08G-P5-3751-KR10/28/2020 04:27:02 PM PT No 24G-P5-3987-KR10/02/2020 17:12:43 PM PT No - Not Buying Removing Once 3090 Arrives 10G-P5-3897-KR09/24/2020 01:35:27 PM PT No - Not Buying Removing Once 3090 Arrives [
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