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Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters)

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cokeman54
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 07:58:46 (permalink)
texinga
Thanks for sharing the post from Vj Cokeman. 
 
So, if those 30K clients just stopped at the first of the year, and understanding the (50) day window for "active", wouldn't all those clients still be technically "active".  If that is the case then the drop in activity would not (yet) be due to that one corporate donor ceasing Folding, correct?


In "our world" yes they would still be active due to the 50 day window. PG explained the drop in a new light that does not use the 50 day window. Here again is an answer that raises more questions than it answers. Now down to 190,875 a much larger drop than 30K unless it keeps falling for the next 50 days.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 08:49:31 (permalink)
cokeman54
texinga
Thanks for sharing the post from Vj Cokeman. 
 
So, if those 30K clients just stopped at the first of the year, and understanding the (50) day window for "active", wouldn't all those clients still be technically "active".  If that is the case then the drop in activity would not (yet) be due to that one corporate donor ceasing Folding, correct?

In "our world" yes they would still be active due to the 50 day window. PG explained the drop in a new light that does not use the 50 day window. Here again is an answer that raises more questions than it answers. Now down to 190,875 a much larger drop than 30K unless it keeps falling for the next 50 days.

 
I think Vj was simply making a broader statement about a very recent loss of client-count without getting into the 50-day delayed effect.  That is understandable because I expect that he is looking at this stuff from a higher level and not thinking about 50-day delays to numbers.  I'm gonna do that too because no matter how much the fall in numbers or from where they originate, I don't see any real change in donor management (yet). 



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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 09:01:25 (permalink)
just go to
http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_list.php?s=
Then look at the top 100 folders for each teams , I did looks like most teams are missing about 1/3 of there top 100 folders.
Now I did not check out when each folder stopped but there where a few names that I do know that stopped around first of the year.



 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 09:51:23 (permalink)
A major announcement:
 
VijayPandeWe've put a lot of time into reading the comments about the BA experiment and have come to some conclusions regarding how we should proceed. BA was originally conceived as an experiment to push FAH as close to what you could run on a traditional supercomputer as possible, doing calculations that most researchers thought could never run on a distributed computing platform. In order to make this possible, the requirements for BA would have to be pretty extreme and constantly updating (much like how supercomputers are constantly being updated to the latest hardware). In recognition of this extreme set of requirements came a very large PPD.

BA was embraced by donors with powerful machines. It also encouraged donors to buy and build powerful machines, which are naturally expensive, in turn leading to donors naturally becoming upset when requirements change. However, updating BA is important. Without updating to keep BA amongst only the top machines in FAH, there would be a huge point inflation (turning off non-BA donors) and also limit what we could do with FAH outside of BA-needed projects.

In the most recent announcement of an update in BA, the reaction was particularly negative. This was far from our intent -- we're here to push our research forward and also to help bring donors together in this important cause we're all fighting for. The BA update did the opposite. It turned people off from Folding@home and served as an obstacle to our ability to push our research forward.

We've listened to the donor comments (including those running BA and those who are not) and come to the following plan to be sensitive to their concerns but also to avoid this sort of issue continuing over and over in the future.

1) The posted change in BA requirements will be revised. The only change in requirements going forward will be to require 24 cores (with according changes in deadlines) and that will occur on May 1, 2014. Why change the minimum core count? In general, FAH works best when we have fewer longer trajectories rather than more slower trajectories, which is why we need to change the BA requirements periodically. Given the amount of BA work we would like to do, the cutoff has to be raised above the current level. While, 32 cores would be ideal but we can still get work done at 24 and, in recognition of donor needs, we will set the level there.

2) The BA experiment will permanently end on January 31, 2015. On that date, the servers will be set to accept only and we will have no plans for future BA WUs. This would allow donors to continue to use their machines and recoup more of their investment than the previous plan. This decision would also work to avoid future issues and strife within the FAH community associated with BA. We understand that many donors will be very disappointed about this decision. This was a judgement call I had to make and this decision is, in my opinion, the right thing to do for the long term good of FAH, even though I know there will be many upset donors right now. 

In leading FAH, my approach has been to push the limits, try new experiments, but also keep an eye to the future such that FAH outlasts and out performs other distributed computing projects. Starting with establishing FAH itself over 13 years ago, to pushing to GPUs, true SMP, Playstation 3, and most recently to supercomputer like nodes with BA, we have constantly been trying new directions to see how we can further and further advance our research. All experiments come to an end, sooner or later. I think my team and I have learned a lot from reading the recent posts and it's time for us to concentrate on the core parts of FAH and improve them and not bite off too much.

Going forward, the next steps will include a discussion of the change of the QRB formula and possibly an update of the benchmark machine. Our plan is to seek more input from donors for both changes. While a distributed computing project cannot be run effectively through polls, I think there is a lot of room for us to improve in terms of connecting to donors and incorporating their concerns. I'm very excited about the future of FAH. I think my team has learned a lot with BA and hopefully we can take that going forward to make FAH even better.

Thanks to all for their contributions and participation in FAH. Working together we have done and will continue to do great things!



 
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cokeman54
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 10:06:34 (permalink)
Well, we got three important changes:
A revised plan +1
A year time line++++
Much better communication (many more blog posts)
PG is trying and with all the hardware issues of late, looks like we finally got their attention. I just hope it is not too little too late, for some.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 10:09:06 (permalink)
Finding a solution to this that will make us happy is like trying to fit a square block into a circular hole, never gonna happen.  It's been said before, if you are upset with FAH, check out the crunching section.  There are many projects that run very similar research to what PG is doing without all the drama.  The BOINC client is miles ahead of anything PG could ever produce.  I still fold but I mainly focus on crunching. I learned my lesson back when my freshly built x58 rig got taken off the BA list shortly after completion.
 
I am happy (in a way) to see numbers for FAH dropping.  Taking your hardware elsewhere in large numbers is the only way to get PG to take us seriously.  Over the many years I've been folding (since about 2005) Vijay has created a clear picture in my mind of how he treats donors and how elite he views his project.  Points are cool, but how about having your name attached (in an official research paper) to a newly discovered pulsar or prime number, getting monthly or even weekly messages about how your PC has contributed to research for serious diseases including cancer, having a client that is highly flexible and customizeable, or having a multitude of projects with tasks tailored towards specific hardware configurations?  If any of those things sound enticing, check out our crunching section and BOINC manager.  FAH is what got me started in distributed computing but it is by no means the best or only option.  I know we can do great things as a community, we just need to give up on the idea of accurate points representations and focus on the research.
 
EDIT:  Took me too long to write this and I didnt' see the major announcement above.  I guess sometimes the block will fit.  Regardless, there are other options out there and you don't have to stick to only one!
post edited by Opolis - 2014/01/15 10:14:22

Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 10:09:13 (permalink)
Interesting... and a new battle plan is being drawn up.


 
texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 10:28:46 (permalink)
I'm fine with what Dr. Pande decided to do and believe it will be the best decision in the long run.  Every problem that he talked about trying to manage the Bigadv program was valid as we all know and shared.  I've felt for awhile that they needed to either take Bigadv offline or do it on machines that don't risk so much donor complication.  It was basically unmanageable for them to do in a way that could prevent donor issues and they needed to "cut bait".  I look forward to what they hope to do with the Folding project in the future and wish them the very best.
 
PS: I also think this will be a hard-pill (ending Bigadv) with many Folders, especially those that just built 4Ps.  But Bigadv is not the end-all justification for a 4P or any size machine you can envision to attack diseases.  In that vein, the equipment is still more than capable of doing lots of good work and I plan to keep my servers pointed at diseases in DC regardless.
post edited by texinga - 2014/01/15 10:52:41



mflanaga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 11:08:49 (permalink)
Well, everyone can plan their end-game now.. unless PG changes their minds again between now and 1/31/15.
Like that would ever happen.

   
             
  
      
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 11:35:14 (permalink)
Zagen30
A major announcement:
 
VijayPandeWe've put a lot of time into reading the comments about the BA experiment and have come to some conclusions regarding how we should proceed. BA was originally conceived as an experiment to push FAH as close to what you could run on a traditional supercomputer as possible, doing calculations that most researchers thought could never run on a distributed computing platform. In order to make this possible, the requirements for BA would have to be pretty extreme and constantly updating (much like how supercomputers are constantly being updated to the latest hardware). In recognition of this extreme set of requirements came a very large PPD.

BA was embraced by donors with powerful machines. It also encouraged donors to buy and build powerful machines, which are naturally expensive, in turn leading to donors naturally becoming upset when requirements change. However, updating BA is important. Without updating to keep BA amongst only the top machines in FAH, there would be a huge point inflation (turning off non-BA donors) and also limit what we could do with FAH outside of BA-needed projects.

In the most recent announcement of an update in BA, the reaction was particularly negative. This was far from our intent -- we're here to push our research forward and also to help bring donors together in this important cause we're all fighting for. The BA update did the opposite. It turned people off from Folding@home and served as an obstacle to our ability to push our research forward.

We've listened to the donor comments (including those running BA and those who are not) and come to the following plan to be sensitive to their concerns but also to avoid this sort of issue continuing over and over in the future.

1) The posted change in BA requirements will be revised. The only change in requirements going forward will be to require 24 cores (with according changes in deadlines) and that will occur on May 1, 2014. Why change the minimum core count? In general, FAH works best when we have fewer longer trajectories rather than more slower trajectories, which is why we need to change the BA requirements periodically. Given the amount of BA work we would like to do, the cutoff has to be raised above the current level. While, 32 cores would be ideal but we can still get work done at 24 and, in recognition of donor needs, we will set the level there.

2) The BA experiment will permanently end on January 31, 2015. On that date, the servers will be set to accept only and we will have no plans for future BA WUs. This would allow donors to continue to use their machines and recoup more of their investment than the previous plan. This decision would also work to avoid future issues and strife within the FAH community associated with BA. We understand that many donors will be very disappointed about this decision. This was a judgement call I had to make and this decision is, in my opinion, the right thing to do for the long term good of FAH, even though I know there will be many upset donors right now. 

In leading FAH, my approach has been to push the limits, try new experiments, but also keep an eye to the future such that FAH outlasts and out performs other distributed computing projects. Starting with establishing FAH itself over 13 years ago, to pushing to GPUs, true SMP, Playstation 3, and most recently to supercomputer like nodes with BA, we have constantly been trying new directions to see how we can further and further advance our research. All experiments come to an end, sooner or later. I think my team and I have learned a lot from reading the recent posts and it's time for us to concentrate on the core parts of FAH and improve them and not bite off too much.

Going forward, the next steps will include a discussion of the change of the QRB formula and possibly an update of the benchmark machine. Our plan is to seek more input from donors for both changes. While a distributed computing project cannot be run effectively through polls, I think there is a lot of room for us to improve in terms of connecting to donors and incorporating their concerns. I'm very excited about the future of FAH. I think my team has learned a lot with BA and hopefully we can take that going forward to make FAH even better.

Thanks to all for their contributions and participation in FAH. Working together we have done and will continue to do great things!



Like anything given enough time you can always come up with answers to sway people the other way.
Sounds like they terminated his services and also BA work because of all the drama that has been caused by him and his team
 
Its is time to move forward with new staff that is more willing to listen to the donors, out with the old and in with the New
same as what is being done with hardware. Time to move forward..... they should also clean out the FF forum mods and admins.
Then and only then do I think we will see much improved relationship for donors and this DC project.

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nathan_P
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 12:09:32 (permalink)
PG have no say in FF, they do not run it.

  


TheWolf
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 12:14:10 (permalink)
nathan_P
PG have no say in FF, they do not run it.


They should, its bad for folding in general with the staff that runs it.

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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 12:16:43 (permalink)
TheWolf
Like anything given enough time you can always come up with answers to sway people the other way.
Sounds like they terminated his services and also BA work because of all the drama that has been caused by him and his team
 
Its is time to move forward with new staff that is more willing to listen to the donors, out with the old and in with the New
same as what is being done with hardware. Time to move forward..... they should also clean out the FF forum mods and admins.
Then and only then do I think we will see much improved relationship for donors and this DC project.

Maybe I'm just bad at reading between the lines, but they didn't say Dr. Kasson was going to be leaving FAH, and he does have many other regular SMP projects running.  Plus, as demonstrated by the work they ran at Google, not everything PG does may necessarily be run on FAH.  They may have decided that Kasson's work would be better suited to running on corporate machines or grids going forward.  Or maybe you're just better at reading between the lines than I am.
 
Regarding new staff, I guess it's kind of hard to know who holds how much power, but to me it's always seemed like Dr. Pande holds much of it.  If the various things I've read over the last few weeks are true, Kasson may have had an unusual amount of influence, hence why he got bigadv pretty much all to himself, but who else at PG do you think has irked donors a lot with their actions (that we know of)?
 
Regarding the FF staff, are people actually upset with all of them?  It seems like everyone's beef is with Bruce and 7im.  The latter isn't even a mod, so I'm not sure what more could be done other than banning him outright.  Have people had numerous issues with PantherX, Macaholic, P5-133Xl, bollix47, Joe_H, etc.?
post edited by Zagen30 - 2014/01/15 12:43:57


 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 12:40:00 (permalink)
I am happy with VJ's plan going to fire folders back up and running.fha has a year to figure out what to do about all the server class iron.Sure hope the get it close to right
post edited by kerryd - 2014/01/15 13:44:22



 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 13:26:07 (permalink)
VijayPandeAll experiments come to an end, sooner or later.

To me this looks like a full surrender of distributed computing.
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 19:42:03 (permalink)
maybe now they will be able to concentrate on building/optimizing the CPU core to scale better.
24/32 etc cores should be able to return SMP much faster than they currently do.
 
SMP points need to be looked at.  I recently fired up my CPU for the first time in quite a while to support the SMP push. I got a 10450 @ 8770PPD on a 2600K @ 4.5.  Nope. I'm going to run my 780 and get ~160k.  Roughly 18 times the PPD for double the power consumption.
 
 
 


 
 
  
                               
 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/15 19:55:44 (permalink)
both my 16 core ankle biters are running smp and i think 1 of them i will leave running even after the bigadv cut off date the other 1 my buddy is going to buy for 250.00 in a couple of months and the car should be running by then so if i can find a gtx 680 i'll try to pick 1 of them up.
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 01:07:11 (permalink)
asus939
both my 16 core ankle biters are running smp and i think 1 of them i will leave running even after the bigadv cut off date the other 1 my buddy is going to buy for 250.00 in a couple of months and the car should be running by then so if i can find a gtx 680 i'll try to pick 1 of them up.


I would save a bit longer and get a 770 or 780.  The ppd is much higher for the same power consumption.
 


 
 
  
                               
 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 01:09:15 (permalink)
Simba, I'm in the same mindset.  16 cores of a 24 core server should not get less PPD than a GTS 250 and GTX 275 running together.  Until they fix the SMP QRB, I'm not wasting my time and power folding.  I know it's good science to run, but unless they want to make it worth the time, I'll use the time to do things I find more interesting.
 
I never ran -bigadv, but I feel I have a slight bit of say in the discussion due to running SMP in the past.  I was being passed when SMP was worth 72k PPD on 20 cores @ 3.7 GHz by those running -bigadv on similar hardware.  I was passed when they cut SMP on the same system down to 50k PPD by introducing crappy units.  Now SMP isn't worth the time to run it, and Stanford and Pande Group are running around like beheaded chickens, wondering why people won't run it.
 
Because time and money overrule points.  Especially when you can get more points out of ancient graphics cards.  Or when a modern GPU can easily knock down 80k PPD with one card.
 
You don't need to have graphs and charts and a galaxy map to tell that people are ignoring something that's not worth the time to run it.  Now that SMP is worth less than 25k PPD, they're whining that no one's running it.  GPUs make 80k+, old GPUs can make 5k up to 10k, Bigadv still makes Big points, but SMP and Uniproc are left to degrade into obsolescence.  And like anything obsolete, people in the computing industry like ourselves upgrade to remain current.
 
If PG and Stanford want SMP folded, make it worth me running a client for 8 hours.  25k after bonuses, it's not worth it.  It wasn't worth it at double that.  Triple that, it was barely sufficient, and this is on a machine that defies the usual rule that 2 CPUs can't overclock.  I'm at 3.7 on chips that run 2.4.  I've messed with memory timings to go as fast as possible, sinking DDR3 into the 6's in latency.
 
I know, it's another of my rants.  Having made 8 million points the hard way, I feel I'm justified this time.  Between old GPUs, uniproc, SMP, and a short span of the GPU3 client on my 580's, I got there.  It wasn't easy, there were a lot of bad memories made on the way, and much smoke in the house.  PG has essentially told me on my intent to return that they don't want my assistance this time.


 
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 04:50:30 (permalink)
People ought to Crunch for a bit to help get a new perspective on chasing "points".  My 4P is working on the WCG Clean Energy project that takes ~18hrs for each WU and delivers a whopping 358 points.    Folding is a great project that is very worthwhile to do.  But the "points" of Folding have created this unhealthy "gotta have a certain amount or it isn't worth my while" thinking.  I've chased them too and know what that feels like to do it. 
 
But my fellow team-mates, it may be time to advance in our thinking and get beyond the effects of these points.  They are both necessary and distracting at the same time.  I would encourage you to think on what brought you here in the first place.  I think for many of us it was not the "points".  Once you get here, then the points start taking over and become the thing that drives us.  Grab hold of that thing and put it back where it belongs (in the back seat). 



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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:02:58 (permalink)
Guess it all depends on the project being worked here I get 1100 PPD on a old Laptop Core2Duo T7200 2.0Ghz CPU
and I'm only using half of the CPU to work and get that with, If I use both cores at full it runs to hot, so only using half of each 50/50 to work a single unit at a time.
 
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post edited by TheWolf - 2014/01/16 06:14:23

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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:17:01 (permalink)
Wolf, I wasn't talking PPD, but the actual points (358) from a single CEPP2 WU that runs 18hrs long.  That is a very small fraction of the points that I can get from Folding one WU (SMP, Bigadv, ect) on my 4P.  My total PPD in Crunching is averaging ~200K, but that is across (3) rigs (4P, SR2 and 1P).  Points don't hafta be "king" of why we are here is all I'm sayin'. 



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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:23:38 (permalink)
Yea I got that, I was just saying some Bionic project give a fairly nice PPD even on such old hardware unlike FaH, there's no way I could get that from any FaH project on that same hardware.

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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:26:23 (permalink)
Ahhh...yes they do Wolf, gotcha.  I should have also said that your point about equipment used is also an important thing.  BOINC welcomes many flavors of rigs and is glad to get all of 'em too! 



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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:31:18 (permalink)
wow double post sorry, this mouse is going crazy and double clicking on a single click.
post edited by TheWolf - 2014/01/16 06:32:35

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TheWolf
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 06:31:18 (permalink)
I tried FaH on that same laptop with both cores running full blast took anywhere from 2 to 4 days to make 1100 points.
Some FaH projects could take up to 15 days to complete on that hardware even longer.
 Edit:
One of the things I liked and really impressed me about Crunching is your allowed to pick the project you want to run.
If for some reason that project isn't working for you and your hardware you can always try something else.
Your not forced to run any one project and if you need your PC you can stop and use it without worry or loss of points.
post edited by TheWolf - 2014/01/16 06:44:53

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ArtyD42
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/16 07:10:00 (permalink)
Checking the data one more time.  189,815 9AM CST 1/16/2014.
 
Appears nobody tracked the day I wasn't online, 1/18/2014 8PM CST down to 188,163.
post edited by ArtyD42 - 2014/01/18 17:49:30
cokeman54
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/20 09:50:46 (permalink)
ArtyD42
Checking the data one more time.  189,815 9AM CST 1/16/2014.
 
Appears nobody tracked the day I wasn't online, 1/18/2014 8PM CST down to 188,163.


182,122                 1/20/14 11:49 AM CST


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
TheWolf
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/20 13:25:21 (permalink)
Not only has folders dropped off but post to the folding forum has as well.
Starting to look like a ghost town around here.

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Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/20 13:28:09 (permalink)
Eh.. It's a done deal.  Nothing changed, nothing changes.  Can't get excited or even flustered.  I'll ride it till the gas runs out.


 
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