SpriteCup1
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I know this debate has been going on a long time, but I'm asking specifically because of the XC3 3080 from EVGA not having a blow out design. It just .. kind of spits the hot air out the side of the heatsinks against the glass in my case. Which wouldn't be a problem except that any game newer than Quake III runs the temperatures up to 172 F (77 C). So I was wondering if positive case pressure would be better for this card to help move the hot air out, since the card doesn't do it for itself.
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arestavo
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 10:07:20
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I prefer positive pressure. There are some downsides with needing to dust more often, but it's a tradeoff that I gladly take for better temperatures.
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castrator86
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 10:10:13
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arestavo
I prefer positive pressure. There are some downsides with needing to dust more often, but it's a tradeoff that I gladly take for better temperatures.
Take off the side panel and hit it with a can of air once a month. 20 seconds of 'maintenance' for much cooler running temps isn't much of a tradeoff!!
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ty_ger07
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 10:19:15
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The age-old wives' tale. It's bogus.
The best performance will be with "neutral" pressure. Same amount of fan CFM blowing in, as fan CFM blowing out. Make one un-balanced with the other, and you will reduce cooling performance.
Add dust filters to your inlet fans for less dust buildup. Don't rely on some wives' tale to reduce dust. The dust comes from the airflow. The dust filters remove the dust from the airflow. Without dust filters, it will be dusty regardless.
If you use the same inlet fans as outlet fans, adding dust filters to the inlet fans will require more total inlet fans than outlet fans, to offset the inlet fan performance lost due to the restriction of the dust filters.
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riku98523
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 10:25:24
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What if I use filters for both in and out fans lol. Also my in and out both go through rads so that also restricts.
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arestavo
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 10:27:04
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I would point out for naysayers, as I have case fans on the removable side panel, that there's no way - NO way - that the GPU temps (for a non-blower card) are the same having those side panel fans exhaust instead of pull cool air in. Then again, it's not in vogue to have a case like that anymore even though you'll have worse thermal performance (for non-blower cards) than these new cases without side fans.
post edited by arestavo - 2020/11/10 10:31:46
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SpriteCup1
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:03:42
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arestavo
I would point out for naysayers, as I have case fans on the removable side panel, that there's no way - NO way - that the GPU temps (for a non-blower card) are the same having those side panel fans exhaust instead of pull cool air in.
Then again, it's not in vogue to have a case like that anymore even though you'll have worse thermal performance (for non-blower cards) than these new cases without side fans.
So to be clear you're saying with a non-blower card like the XC3 3080/3090, slight positive pressure is the beneficial balance? I have 3 intake and 1 exhaust with some holes/grills around the case. My fan curve has the 3 intake off a lot though, and my CPU is liquid cooled with an external radiator (so not really effected too much, here.) I might adjust my fan curve to make sure intake is more than exhaust.
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:04:52
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Try both, see which one works better - experimentation leads to unexpected & often nice results. Better to have fiddled with it & gotten it just right than not bothered trying.
Typically, in most cases, you want positive pressure so that all that heat the card is spewing "everywhere" gets forced out "where-ever it can get out" as quickly as possible. I currently have 6 intake, 4 exhaust, with one fan exhausting from directly under the GPU out of the expansion slots - that particular fan being there has helped temps a fair bit, as it's pulling out air that might otherwise be recycled through the card, thus increasing temperatures, sending it out of the case instead. But my fan profile isn't exactly typical, or something most people could fit in their case.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:08:49
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USALion
So to be clear you're saying with a non-blower card like the XC3 3080/3090, slight positive pressure is the beneficial balance?
No. If you have positive case pressure, it means that your exhaust is restricted. If you remove the exhaust restriction, you would have more total case airflow. Purposely restricting your exhaust to create positive case pressure, reduces total case airflow. Thus, you are purposely choosing to reduce cooling performance. Makes zero sense. Wives' tales. arestavo
I would point out for naysayers, as I have case fans on the removable side panel, that there's no way - NO way - that the GPU temps (for a non-blower card) are the same having those side panel fans exhaust instead of pull cool air in.
Of course I agree with you there. But, if you added more exhaust fans elsewhere (or replace the existing exhaust fans with higher CFM fans), your overall cooling would be even better. The positive case pressure isn't what is improving your video card cooling. The air blowing directly at the video card is what is improving the video card cooling. If you increased your exhaust, you would have neutral case pressure and better cooling everywhere else. Dabadger84
Typically, in most cases, you want positive pressure so that all that heat the card is spewing "everywhere" gets forced out "where-ever it can get out" as quickly as possible.
Incorrect. Debunked. Neutral case pressure has more total CFM through the case. Restricting the exhaust reduces total case airflow.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2020/11/10 11:16:08
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aka_STEVE_b
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:24:42
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This is basically how mine always is..... 3-or 4 blowing in & 3-4 sucking out 
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SpriteCup1
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:25:11
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Well.. I'm not saying you're exactly wrong, ty_ger07, but so far all I did was reduce exhaust max fan speed from 100% to 70% and my card is 10 degrees cooler at the same time point in this stress test.. I can feel the hot air blasting out of the holes and grills which I couldn't feel before. It might just be that I don't have adequate exhaust, so this is a better sweet spot with my limited flow set up. UPDATE: It maxed out around 3-4 degrees cooler than before. Not a huge difference, but I find it interesting. I may end up just buying a waterblock for this thing. Then again, it's not exactly dangerous temperatures.
post edited by USALion - 2020/11/10 11:48:26
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DarthCanada
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 11:48:42
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USALion
I know this debate has been going on a long time, but I'm asking specifically because of the XC3 3080 from EVGA not having a blow out design. It just .. kind of spits the hot air out the side of the heatsinks against the glass in my case. Which wouldn't be a problem except that any game newer than Quake III runs the temperatures up to 172 F (77 C). So I was wondering if positive case pressure would be better for this card to help move the hot air out, since the card doesn't do it for itself.
USALion
I know this debate has been going on a long time, but I'm asking specifically because of the XC3 3080 from EVGA not having a blow out design. It just .. kind of spits the hot air out the side of the heatsinks against the glass in my case. Which wouldn't be a problem except that any game newer than Quake III runs the temperatures up to 172 F (77 C). So I was wondering if positive case pressure would be better for this card to help move the hot air out, since the card doesn't do it for itself.
positive
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kring
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 13:57:37
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From my personal and experienced perspective here's some guidance: - It's about flow not pressure - the more air you can move the better
- it's about distribution of the air, fan at top front as intake and exhaust fan top back is really bad, no mater how fast it flows because no air is in bottom of the case
- the PSU in most situations shouldn't be counted, bottom mount PSU's have zero air with the rest of the case, in from bottom, out the back.
- for pressure, it's ideal to have balanced, however that's near impossible so I lean toward positive over negative.
- I find the closer you can get to neutral flow, the quieter (and cooler) the case is.
- always have a basic air filter for intake to catch the larger particles, this does restrict flow.
- use fan size and rpm to determine a balanced flow, 2x120mm in at 1000 rpm with a filter needs 2x120mm @ 1200rpm to exhaust
- ideally you want your intake to go strait between GPU and lower PCI slots and exhaust to be just above the GPU... other fans just help circulate
- The shorter the distance to get the hot air out, the lower your overall case temp and components will be, don't make hot air travel the case if it can be avoided
- I'm not a fan of all the little air gaps and open mesh parts of a case, I seal all of those up so I can specifically control the air in/flow/exhaust
- Make sure your cables are neat and out of the way, 3X VGA power cables not properly placed can significantly impact your cooling.
- use the right fans with the right fins and purpose -- for a radiator there are special fans.
- If possible on a radiator, a push/pull combo is fantastic, great flow over the radiator at low RPMs so it's super quiet (use special radiator fans)
post edited by kring - 2020/11/10 14:00:19
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kring
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 14:06:34
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aka_STEVE_b This is basically how mine always is..... 3-or 4 blowing in & 3-4 sucking out good diagram, mine is similar. 120mm pairs on front/top 140mm on bottom pair and rear exhaust filters on all 4 intakes then I tune pressure with RPM fan curves 
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 14:20:40
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ty_ger07
Incorrect. Debunked. Neutral case pressure has more total CFM through the case. Restricting the exhaust reduces total case airflow.
Says you, my case begs to differ and I have more experience with different airflow patterns, in different cases, and their effect on hardware temperatures, than the majority of people. People also need to keep in mind, if your PSU is setup to exhaust air from inside your case, that's another exhaust fan you have to count - among other factors like your GPU exhausting SOME of the air out of the case even if it's an open style card. USALion
Well.. I'm not saying you're exactly wrong, ty_ger07, but so far all I did was reduce exhaust max fan speed from 100% to 70% and my card is 10 degrees cooler at the same time point in this stress test.. I can feel the hot air blasting out of the holes and grills which I couldn't feel before. It might just be that I don't have adequate exhaust, so this is a better sweet spot with my limited flow set up.
UPDATE: It maxed out around 3-4 degrees cooler than before. Not a huge difference, but I find it interesting. I may end up just buying a waterblock for this thing. Then again, it's not exactly dangerous temperatures.
3-4C lower is a good start, you can always try undervolting to further drop your temps. I've found that 875mv @ 1980-1995MHz runs 7-10C cooler (and keep in mind, that's in my setup, that already runs cool & has stupidly-high airflow), and the performance difference between that & the default voltage/slightly higher clocks is negligible. You can also offset some of that potential loss in performance by OCing the vRAM, which is what I did. It's also entirely possible that you had fans sucking air out of the case before the air that was being "pulled in" to the case had a chance to get anywhere important. That's why, depending on the case and how "air tight" it is, I recommend people try a positive pressure setup first, to see how the case handles passively getting rid of hot air. If you have the room and your other expansion slots are not populated, I'd still recommend trying the expansion slot exhaust fan thing I've been running, it really does seem to help quite a bit with getting that heat from the GPU's spewing during gaming out of there quicker without recirculating it through the card multiple times... Example picture (my fan setup has changed since then, still tweaking it):  And you don't really have to have that fan down there on high RPM or anything either, I have mine at like 50-60%, about 1200-1400RPM on an EK Vardar RGB fan currently (not the one in the picture, that's a different one, same concept though, middle range RPM), quiet as a mouse but kicks plenty of that hot air out faster when needed.
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SpriteCup1
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 14:38:41
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Dabadger84
ty_ger07
Incorrect. Debunked. Neutral case pressure has more total CFM through the case. Restricting the exhaust reduces total case airflow.
Says you, my case begs to differ and I have more experience with different airflow patterns, in different cases, and their effect on hardware temperatures, than the majority of people.
People also need to keep in mind, if your PSU is setup to exhaust air from inside your case, that's another exhaust fan you have to count - among other factors like your GPU exhausting SOME of the air out of the case even if it's an open style card.
USALion
Well.. I'm not saying you're exactly wrong, ty_ger07, but so far all I did was reduce exhaust max fan speed from 100% to 70% and my card is 10 degrees cooler at the same time point in this stress test.. I can feel the hot air blasting out of the holes and grills which I couldn't feel before. It might just be that I don't have adequate exhaust, so this is a better sweet spot with my limited flow set up.
UPDATE: It maxed out around 3-4 degrees cooler than before. Not a huge difference, but I find it interesting. I may end up just buying a waterblock for this thing. Then again, it's not exactly dangerous temperatures.
3-4C lower is a good start, you can always try undervolting to further drop your temps. I've found that 875mv @ 1980-1995MHz runs 7-10C cooler (and keep in mind, that's in my setup, that already runs cool & has stupidly-high airflow), and the performance difference between that & the default voltage/slightly higher clocks is negligible. You can also offset some of that potential loss in performance by OCing the vRAM, which is what I did.
It's also entirely possible that you had fans sucking air out of the case before the air that was being "pulled in" to the case had a chance to get anywhere important. That's why, depending on the case and how "air tight" it is, I recommend people try a positive pressure setup first, to see how the case handles passively getting rid of hot air.
If you have the room and your other expansion slots are not populated, I'd still recommend trying the expansion slot exhaust fan thing I've been running, it really does seem to help quite a bit with getting that heat from the GPU's spewing during gaming out of there quicker without recirculating it through the card multiple times...
Example picture (my fan setup has changed since then, still tweaking it):
And you don't really have to have that fan down there on high RPM or anything either, I have mine at like 50-60%, about 1200-1400RPM on an EK Vardar RGB fan currently (not the one in the picture, that's a different one, same concept though, middle range RPM), quiet as a mouse but kicks plenty of that hot air out faster when needed.
Is there anything that happens to cores or something with undervolting? Because I tried that once, and got really good temperatures at good speeds "stable" (AIDA64 stress test ran for a half hour no problems), but the second I tried the Ray Tracing demo on 3DMark, I got 3 FPS instead of 30 FPS (which is worse performance than my 2070 Super lol.) Going to default settings didn't even fix it, I had to completely turn my PC off and turn it back on, and then I got my performance back. Gave me a little scare. lol. Thank you for all the info though, so far.
post edited by USALion - 2020/11/10 14:45:06
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liud21
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 14:49:05
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You want positive air flow, if your case is fully enclosed. I have 3 intake fans, and 2 exhaust fans. depending on the temps, the intake will spin up too about 1300-1400 rpms, while the 2 exhaust fans will only reach about 1000 rpms. I want the cool air from the front of the case, pushing the hot air coming from the GPU up and out through the back of the case. Its about CONTROL and it just so happens that positive air flow is easier to help control where hot air goes...
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yaggaz
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/10 15:31:41
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aka_STEVE_b
This is basically how mine always is..... 3-or 4 blowing in & 3-4 sucking out
Do internal fans have any effect on the air pressure? For example does having a CPU heatsink fan blowing back to the exhaust and maybe some radiator fans that arent exhausting anywhere have any effect on whether your air becomes positive/neutral/negative?
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 02:22:16
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USALion
Is there anything that happens to cores or something with undervolting? Because I tried that once, and got really good temperatures at good speeds "stable" (AIDA64 stress test ran for a half hour no problems), but the second I tried the Ray Tracing demo on 3DMark, I got 3 FPS instead of 30 FPS (which is worse performance than my 2070 Super lol.) Going to default settings didn't even fix it, I had to completely turn my PC off and turn it back on, and then I got my performance back. Gave me a little scare. lol. Thank you for all the info though, so far.
How far down did you go? It will cause issues if you're not actually stable, but that sounds odd. I've never had that issue but I've also only tried settings others have tested & found to be pretty stable. A safe bet would be 1995MHz @ 900mv - if that causes issues that'd be quite abnormal. I'm able to run 1995 @ 875mv, and 2010 @ 900mv, but I haven't put them through the ringer to ensure they're 100% stable, I just gamed on them & didn't have issues. lol I see you don't have room for the expansion area fan, that's too bad, I really want to see if other people that can do that see a difference in temps by doing it. Undervolting won't do any permanent damage - if it's not stable, it'll just crash or cause a driver crash & you'll have to start over/reboot. All you're doing is lower the voltage given to the GPU core & also slightly reducing the maximum boost clock, finding a happy medium that's stable is key. Keep in mind part of the reason the card by default runs "warm" is because it's pumping 1.05-1.08V through the GPU core to hit 2010-2050MHz normally, which is more voltage than it would actually need to do said speeds, which is why undervolting works. There's a whole thread on it with a lot of different people's settings they've tested listed if you want to check it out & try some of their numbers yourself like I did: https://forums.evga.com/A...ng-Mania-m3120284.aspx
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 02:26:26
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yaggaz
Do internal fans have any effect on the air pressure? For example does having a CPU heatsink fan blowing back to the exhaust and maybe some radiator fans that arent exhausting anywhere have any effect on whether your air becomes positive/neutral/negative?
Depends on what they're doing. The CPU heatsink fans you speak of would definitely have some effect, because they're ushering the hot exhaust of the CPU heatsink to the back/exhaust of the case, which would prevent most of it from possibly being recirculated by the GPU or on to other components. This is why I setup my 200mm behemoth in front of my GPU in my new fan setup. It's basically making sure any and all of the hot air in the GPU area is being pushed towards my two rear exhaust fans that are above & below the GPU area. It's only held there by twisty ties, but is surprisingly quiet, despite being at 70%, because it's encountering zero resistance, vs being mounted to something would of course offer some resistance, even if it's minimal, which increases noise that's created. The loudest fans on my case are the 2 top intakes, because they're right up against filtering on the top (and they're both partially blocked as well, one by the CPU radiator just a bit, and the other by the intake area of the top ending before the fan does).
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Cool GTX
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 07:25:53
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Air Flow is the single most important issue with ACX type coolers  You want to remove the hot air exiting the side of the GPU cooler into the case ---> before it gets sucked back into the cooler, causing a heat loop
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Ciddharthas
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 08:30:12
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Positive pressure is generally best in my opinion. While neutral pressure *might* net you a very slight increase in fan efficiency, positive pressure will result in a less dusty case. Most dust in a case comes through holes that don't have filters, such as on the back of the pc. If you have negative pressure, air is being sucked in through those holes, and it takes dust into your machine with it. If you have positive pressure, a little bit of air is being pushed out of those holes, which prevents dust from coming in. With negative or neutral pressure, you are also more likely to end up with dead spots inside your case that end up heating up. This can be mitigated with proper fan placement and curves, but even so, your machine will be taking in dust through those holes.
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 08:53:19
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Cool GTX
Air Flow is the single most important issue with ACX type coolers
You want to remove the hot air exiting the side of the GPU cooler into the case ---> before it gets sucked back into the cooler, causing a heat loop
Indeed, any open-face (like these are) cards need this in spades. This can be proven by how much one's temperatures drop by simply removing the side of the case & letting the card spew that hot air out in to oblivion instead of recirculating most of it. To USALion: Another thing I just thought of that you could try, remove the slot covers on the unoccupied expansion slots on your case. Those could be blocking hot air from escaping, especially if they don't have holes in them to let are out like some cases do. Worth a try.
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kevinc313
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 10:02:42
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USALion
Well.. I'm not saying you're exactly wrong, ty_ger07, but so far all I did was reduce exhaust max fan speed from 100% to 70% and my card is 10 degrees cooler at the same time point in this stress test.. I can feel the hot air blasting out of the holes and grills which I couldn't feel before. It might just be that I don't have adequate exhaust, so this is a better sweet spot with my limited flow set up.
UPDATE: It maxed out around 3-4 degrees cooler than before. Not a huge difference, but I find it interesting. I may end up just buying a waterblock for this thing. Then again, it's not exactly dangerous temperatures.
You have the classic dead spot of air flow around your card.
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DamienR
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/11 10:20:37
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I managed to drop 10deg C average from my PC case by stopping the rear exhaust & running just 2 top 140mm exhaust (Radiator) fans. 4x140mm intake (4phantek, 3 corsair). I do need to point out this is due to poor design, Bit of a different story when running 13 fans & 3 radiators ~ Phanteks Enthoo Primo. The Phanteks 719 made no difference in temps doing the same thing, although it has 10 EK X3M 120mm fans total 4 exhaust, 4 intake, 2 bottom that are off unless under load, much better design case. So to get to my point, play around before settling on a set up, what works for others might not work for you.
post edited by DamienR - 2020/11/11 10:23:09
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IRanNaked
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/12 23:08:31
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ty_ger07
The age-old wives' tale. It's bogus.
The best performance will be with "neutral" pressure. Same amount of fan CFM blowing in, as fan CFM blowing out. Make one un-balanced with the other, and you will reduce cooling performance.
Add dust filters to your inlet fans for less dust buildup. Don't rely on some wives' tale to reduce dust. The dust comes from the airflow. The dust filters remove the dust from the airflow. Without dust filters, it will be dusty regardless.
If you use the same inlet fans as outlet fans, adding dust filters to the inlet fans will require more total inlet fans than outlet fans, to offset the inlet fan performance lost due to the restriction of the dust filters.
If you had a case from the 90's then yes, neutral air flow would be the best but since most cases have PCI-E covers with holes, positive is the best
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orkan
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/13 06:29:43
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Dabadger84
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/13 06:50:13
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orkan
Y'alls air movement game is weak.
1200 cubic feet per minute of positive pressure air flow.
https://i.imgur.com/0yC09tw.mp4
 at last someone with higher airflow than me. lol
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bambihunter
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/13 09:16:27
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At age 50, I have been in computers a long time. Personally, I feel if a case has a lot of blow holes (not fan mounts), then I'll use more intake than out flow. But, they have to agree with the overall flow. You don't want a rear intake fan right near an exhaust fan or you'll simply recycle the hot air. When possible, I always go for matching in/out air flow that flows in a rearward direction, and often slightly upwards. I have been known to use deflectors as needed inside the case to direct air flow to/from a desired spot. Currently, I have a Define R6 case. In it, I have a water cooled Intel i9-9980xe processor with the 3x140 radiator on the front intake. I have 3 x 140 fans across the top that are exhaust. Also, have a single 140 on the bottom for intake and a single 140 by the VRAM/CPU area for exhaust. For that bottom intake fan, I have some card stock that I lightly covered in fiberglass resin in a curved shape so that it blows directly in the location of the 3 GPU's (3090 FTW Ultra, and 2 x 2080ti's). Eventually I will switch the GPU's over to water as well, but will likely add more cards in at that time. This PC is a work PC as well as for gaming. In the off hours, it does [link=mailto:Folding@Home]Folding@Home[/link]. https://foldingathome.org/ I will say, that the new modern PC cases are simply amazing in their versatility and air flow capabilities. Back in the day of the old AT format computers, one was lucky if there was even a single case fan. Instead it relied largely on the PSU to draw the air out.
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yaggaz
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Re: Do I want positive or negative case pressure with 3080 XC3?
2020/11/13 15:16:45
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orkan
Y'alls air movement game is weak.
1200 cubic feet per minute of positive pressure air flow.
https://i.imgur.com/0yC09tw.mp4
Wow. What sort of temps you getting ambient and GPU under load on the lowest setting?
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