Phil6970
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 12:17:37
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Moore's law, prediction made by American engineer Gordon Moore in 1965 that the number of transistors per silicon chip doubles every year. Moore's law. Gordon E. Moore observed that the number of transistors on a computer chip was doubling about every 18–24 months.
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ty_ger07
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 12:26:57
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jankerson
ty_ger07
jankerson
ty_ger07
jankerson
........
Moore's law is not applicable.
If the subject is electricity it always is, no way around it.
Feel free to read Moore's Law and then tell me how it is applicable to current-carrying capability of wires and connectors.
Guess you would need to actually read it.
And actually understand what it really means.
I have. It is not applicable. Just like the number of dedicated wires connected to the GPU does not seem to be applicable to the reason some of these video cards are having the "red light of death" failure. All I am saying is that if the wires and connectors are engineered for daisy-chaining and specifically approved by a respected PSU manufacturer, you should not be flaming people for using them or blessing their use. This thread is all about calling out individuals and flaming them. It's silly. It is almost a violation of this forum's terms of service on that point alone. A whole lot of bickering about nothing.
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 13:06:06
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It would seem like a good idea for EVGA to get their techs together and release a detailed statement about using daisy chain cables to power 3000 series.
Whatever they do decide to stick to as a congruent statement they need to explain the how and why behind it.
At this point I will not use daisy chains and never advise anyone to do it.
-There is no benefit to using a daisy chain, you gain nothing from using one. And if anything have the potential to cause detriments by using one. By using 3 separate cables(or 2 in cases of 2000 series, etc) you know for sure you're not limiting yourself or worse. Even if it is permissible to use a daisy chain it's still better to use 3 separate cables.
-If a daisy chain is fine because the 3rd 8 pin is kinds superfluous then why even have the 3rd 8 pin? It doesn't add up. They wouldn't spend money on the 3rd 8 pin unless they had a reason to because it's a business and they have to keep costs down to make a profit. Notice the XC3 3080s have only 2 x 8 pin and an intentionally lower power limit and no XOC bios. This indicates there is a good reason for that 3rd 8 pin connector.
-Even if on paper the wattage/current appears to work to use a daisy chain that doesn't mean it will *reliably* in actually practical application. Anyone that has take theory to application knows that what you model on paper can be very different from reality.
-A lot of this really depends on the PSU and how well it followed the non mandatory specs. Truly EVGA can only say if it's safe to use *for EVGA PSUs.* They can't tell us anything about Seasonic, Corsair, etc. Being that the PSU and how it was built is a bigger factor in this than the GPU it seems like the best EVGA can do is tell us what to do if using an EVGA PSU and tell us for any other brand to ask them directly or default to one connection per cable for GPU power. Really every PSU maker should make a statement, but that could reveal to the public which ones are cheaping out on materials and wire gauge. And they probably won't want to do that...
-With so many variables in general(do you know how clean or dirty your wall outlet power is?) it seems overall not worth taking any risks using a daisy chain for GPU power. Why would you risk potentially harming your expensive GPU over cutting corners on cables? If you have a PSU with only 2 ports for PCIe/GPU power you probably want to upgrade anyway. I tend to choose PSUs that are more than what I think I need for 2 reasons: Overhead for overclocking, and future proofing. I bought a 1000W EVGA PSU for my 2070 even though it was overkill because that way I would not need an upgrade for a few years. Being that the PSU is something than can fry an entire PC if things go very very wrong you don't want to cheap out on one or go bare minimum for high end expensive builds. It's kinda like building a drag racer and then only giving it regular gas instead of the highest octane available.
Sidenote: Moore's Law applies to the number of transistors and transistor density in components. It does not apply to this discussion except in terms of increased power demands over time as transistor density increases. Which means think ahead when buying a PSU. Yeah an 850W might be just good enough now, but what about when the next gen hits and power demands increase again? Do you want to buy a new PSU every new GPU? Or buy a nice one that has a ton of overhead so you won't need to worry about it for a few years? If anything Moore's Law is indirectly why a daisy chain was fine for 1000 series and below but no good for 2000 series and beyond. The increase in transistor density requires more power making daisy chains impractical and sketchy. (Before anyone jumps in the reduction of transistor size does bring more efficiency, the increase in density is enough to offset that efficiency increase resulting in increased power demands.)
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 13:08:00
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ty_ger07
jankerson
ty_ger07
jankerson
ty_ger07
jankerson
........
Moore's law is not applicable.
If the subject is electricity it always is, no way around it.
Feel free to read Moore's Law and then tell me how it is applicable to current-carrying capability of wires and connectors.
Guess you would need to actually read it.
And actually understand what it really means.
I have. It is not applicable.
Just like the number of dedicated wires connected to the GPU does not seem to be applicable to the reason some of these video cards are having the "red light of death" failure.
All I am saying is that if the wires and connectors are engineered for daisy-chaining and specifically approved by a respected PSU manufacturer, you should not be flaming people for using them or blessing their use. This thread is all about calling out individuals and flaming them. It's silly. It is almost a violation of this forum's terms of service on that point alone.
A whole lot of bickering about nothing.
No, it is not about calling anyone out or flaming anyone. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it bad.
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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Dwarfy
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 15:00:36
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Ok time to chime in on this. IF you have a single rail PSU and you draw 300W from it via 1 pci-e and 1 pci-e with additional daisy, how is the power drawn? Single cable takes 1/2 =150W Socket 1 gets 150W Split cable takes 1/2 =150W Socket 2 and 3 get 75W each You are now drawing the max wattage the specs say for each cable and as long as they are high quality then you should be fine, but if you go above 300W power draw then both cable are outside spec and not guaranteed to maintain that current, thus could overheat/fire (this I'll say is rare, the cable coating is designed to not flame.) The wire would likely just burn out like a slow fuse, but could damage something as it goes. (that's not to say it won't glow in the heat and maybe even spark a little as it dies) Depending on how the gpu takes the power per socket (is it fed to different places or is it merged before going to where it's needed) then you can get different power requirements on each cable. Now with 3 seperate cables all is well with the world. But there is a caveat, a well made power supply should have high quality cables and should be rated accordingly thus if the cable has a split built in then it should be able to supply the total current as required by each connector. My 1080ti FTW3 is using the evga powerlink, which is just copper rails inside and I have a single daisychained cable feeding it with zero issues since day one, my system is on 24/7 and I fold 24/7. Based on the 1080ti's rating of 250W (and assuming it takes 75W from the mb) I am running my cable at 25W more than it should. So only a small amount and thus well within tolerances. Also of note is that there are 3090 cards with only 2 8pin sockets on them...... The consensus is always use 1 cable per power socket, But as long as you use at least 2 cables and you have not bought a cheapo psu then you should be fine. (why would you spend money on expensive parts and cheap out on one of the most important parts???) If you have a multi rail PSU then DO NOT daisy at all ever. I think this is where a lot of confusion comes from and in part why I think multi rail psu's are not so common. This will always be a hot topic, in most part because we are not all using the same psu, so I could say yes if you have a single cable with 3 pci-e power plugs on it then just use that.... And for maybe 1 psu that would be fine but the other 99% an absolute no. Ultimately it comes down to you, are you confident that that 1 cable can safely supply 2/3rds of the required power? I've just looked on a webpage and it didn't list the maximum wattage per cable but it also said 0 for the twin and 6 for the single cable supplied. ( https://seasonic.com/prime-tx) Also in the user manual it says - High powered graphics cards are usually outfitted with two (or three) PCIe power connector slots. Seasonic prefers the use of two (or three) separate PCIe cables to connect these cards to your power supply. Also from the EVGA psu manual - We recommend to use a single PCI-E cable to connect per port on graphic cards if your video card requires high power such as equipped with more than 2 PCI-E connectors 6pin + 8pin and 8pin + 8pin. ( https://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/220-T2-1600.pdf)
post edited by Dwarfy - 2021/01/06 15:02:48
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Dwarfy
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 15:30:24
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 19:22:59
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"You are now drawing the max wattage the specs say for each cable and as long as they are high quality then you should be fine, but if you go above 300W power draw then both cable are outside spec and not guaranteed to maintain that current, thus could overheat/fire (this I'll say is rare, the cable coating is designed to not flame.)"
3080 has a 400W power limit so....
The Molex Mini Fit Jr 5556 specs can easily exceed the PCIe minimum specs.
As for your 1080 Ti on a dsiay chain you might be limiting performance. There's an older Jayz 2 Cents video you should find and watch you'll fine interesting.
Regarding Debauer's video just because he can do that doesn't mean daisy chains are safe. Also that wasn't done on a 3000 series GPU.
There also a Buildzoid video where he talks about daisy chains should be 16 awg but are too often actually 18 awg.
When it comes to PSUs a lot of the Intel ATX specs are non mandatory leaving a lot of room for corner cutting. The Intel ATX spec has nothing about Daisy Chains.
If the frakking EVGA PSU manual says one connection per cable then why are a portion of EVGA employees contradicting their own manual?
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/06 20:22:26
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Intoxicus
"You are now drawing the max wattage the specs say for each cable and as long as they are high quality then you should be fine, but if you go above 300W power draw then both cable are outside spec and not guaranteed to maintain that current, thus could overheat/fire (this I'll say is rare, the cable coating is designed to not flame.)"
3080 has a 400W power limit so....
The Molex Mini Fit Jr 5556 specs can easily exceed the PCIe minimum specs.
As for your 1080 Ti on a dsiay chain you might be limiting performance. There's an older Jayz 2 Cents video you should find and watch you'll fine interesting.
Regarding Debauer's video just because he can do that doesn't mean daisy chains are safe. Also that wasn't done on a 3000 series GPU.
There also a Buildzoid video where he talks about daisy chains should be 16 awg but are too often actually 18 awg.
When it comes to PSUs a lot of the Intel ATX specs are non mandatory leaving a lot of room for corner cutting. The Intel ATX spec has nothing about Daisy Chains.
If the frakking EVGA PSU manual says one connection per cable then why are a portion of EVGA employees contradicting their own manual?
They are telling people what they want to hear, that in itself is a problem that goes on way too often these days. NOT what they NEED to be told.
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RickJamesBish
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 04:36:09
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jankerson
rz22g
Lets add to the misinformation...
You have one EVGA Rep here that says its ok.
You have another EVGA Rep that completely condemns it saying it can start a fire.
You have another EVGA Rep who says you shouldn't do it... unless the power supply has a cable included that is split.
Then EVGA Power Supplies include split cables. (which explains the comment above)
Lets add the EVGA Power Meter that even though you enter your system specs with the exact video card you are getting, recommends a lower wattage power supply and power supplies and power supplies that do not have enough dedicate outputs that are required by the card.
Those daisy chained cables are the worst idea of all bad ideas ever.
It all comes down to MONEY in the end, cost cutting.
They can lower the price on the PSUs by cutting cost providing less cables and having less connections on the PSU end.
Except the EVGA PSU I just got has 4 PCIe output and came with 4 cables, two of them being split. So the split cables would actually be a cost increase over just 4 straight.
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Gogod2020
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 05:43:30
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1. Get a higher than 750W PSU for any of the 3000 series cards.
2. Use single PCIe cables and never daisy chain.
3. Do NOT cheap out on the PSU get the best you can afford and go gold-platinum efficiency.
4. Ignore those who say "well you pull max 500W so get 550 PSU". It is ALWAYS better to work your PSU at lower loads so it doesn't stress, it doesn't coil whine, it doesn't fail and can handle spikes. Not to mention you will not push hot air into your GPU fans as it happens with the installation of many PSUs whose fans face directly at the intakes of your GPU.
Better safe than sorry. Simple as that.
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kevinc313
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 07:30:21
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Fine to daisy chain two connectors on a FTW3, plus one full cable. For operation at STOCK clocks and power (380w). Preferably daisychain connectors 1 and 3, they draw slightly less power and 2.
On mine with a 1300w seasonic psu, took 3 daisychain cables, extracted the pins and cut off the extra daisychain connectors. Seasonic doesn't supply any non-daisychain cables. Have seen 485w peaks with the 450w bios.
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 10:07:24
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kevinc313
Fine to daisy chain two connectors on a FTW3, plus one full cable. For operation at STOCK clocks and power (380w). Preferably daisychain connectors 1 and 3, they draw slightly less power and 2.
On mine with a 1300w seasonic psu, took 3 daisychain cables, extracted the pins and cut off the extra daisychain connectors. Seasonic doesn't supply any non-daisychain cables. Have seen 485w peaks with the 450w bios.
If you want to do it that's your risk. Just don't ask others to take that same risk. Just because it works for you on your PSU(for now) doesn't mean it will for everyone on every PSU. And although it was an older video on a 1000 series Jayz2Cents showed using a daisy chain limited performance and FPS. Even if does work, it's likely holding back your performance potential. People are glossing over that massively important point that your PSU and how well it did or did not follow or exceed specs is going to be huge determining factor. Seasonic is one of the best brands I know of and you're more likely to be in spec, or even exceed specs with them. Like I've been saying what works for one PSU may not work for other cheaper ones. Hence why the *default* advice, especially for new builders, should be one connection per GPU power cable. Btw the transient ms peaks you won't see on an OSD can exceed 600W.
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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kevinc313
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 10:38:55
(permalink)
Intoxicus
kevinc313
Fine to daisy chain two connectors on a FTW3, plus one full cable. For operation at STOCK clocks and power (380w). Preferably daisychain connectors 1 and 3, they draw slightly less power and 2.
On mine with a 1300w seasonic psu, took 3 daisychain cables, extracted the pins and cut off the extra daisychain connectors. Seasonic doesn't supply any non-daisychain cables. Have seen 485w peaks with the 450w bios.
If you want to do it that's your risk. Just don't ask others to take that same risk.
LOL. You are wrong. This is literally what EVGA advised. BTW here's my thicc Timespy run. https://www.3dmark.com/spy/16605955
post edited by kevinc313 - 2021/01/07 10:42:02
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 11:05:18
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rz22g
jankerson
rz22g
Lets add to the misinformation...
You have one EVGA Rep here that says its ok.
You have another EVGA Rep that completely condemns it saying it can start a fire.
You have another EVGA Rep who says you shouldn't do it... unless the power supply has a cable included that is split.
Then EVGA Power Supplies include split cables. (which explains the comment above)
Lets add the EVGA Power Meter that even though you enter your system specs with the exact video card you are getting, recommends a lower wattage power supply and power supplies and power supplies that do not have enough dedicate outputs that are required by the card.
Those daisy chained cables are the worst idea of all bad ideas ever.
It all comes down to MONEY in the end, cost cutting.
They can lower the price on the PSUs by cutting cost providing less cables and having less connections on the PSU end.
Except the EVGA PSU I just got has 4 PCIe output and came with 4 cables, two of them being split. So the split cables would actually be a cost increase over just 4 straight.
That's a total of 6X PCIe Connections. Would be more expensive to have 6X PCIe cables and 6X connections on the PSU end. Understand now?
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RickJamesBish
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 13:23:49
(permalink)
jankerson
rz22g
jankerson
rz22g
Lets add to the misinformation...
You have one EVGA Rep here that says its ok.
You have another EVGA Rep that completely condemns it saying it can start a fire.
You have another EVGA Rep who says you shouldn't do it... unless the power supply has a cable included that is split.
Then EVGA Power Supplies include split cables. (which explains the comment above)
Lets add the EVGA Power Meter that even though you enter your system specs with the exact video card you are getting, recommends a lower wattage power supply and power supplies and power supplies that do not have enough dedicate outputs that are required by the card.
Those daisy chained cables are the worst idea of all bad ideas ever.
It all comes down to MONEY in the end, cost cutting.
They can lower the price on the PSUs by cutting cost providing less cables and having less connections on the PSU end.
Except the EVGA PSU I just got has 4 PCIe output and came with 4 cables, two of them being split. So the split cables would actually be a cost increase over just 4 straight.
That's a total of 6X PCIe Connections.
Would be more expensive to have 6X PCIe cables and 6X connections on the PSU end.
Understand now?
And you would include 6 PCIe cables with a power supply that has 4 PCIe outputs because..... ? They are all but giving you the green light to daisy chain with the included cables. 4 outputs, 4 cables but a total of 6 possible devices. Understand now ?
post edited by rz22g - 2021/01/07 13:28:39
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 13:54:15
(permalink)
rz22g
jankerson
rz22g
jankerson
rz22g
Lets add to the misinformation...
You have one EVGA Rep here that says its ok.
You have another EVGA Rep that completely condemns it saying it can start a fire.
You have another EVGA Rep who says you shouldn't do it... unless the power supply has a cable included that is split.
Then EVGA Power Supplies include split cables. (which explains the comment above)
Lets add the EVGA Power Meter that even though you enter your system specs with the exact video card you are getting, recommends a lower wattage power supply and power supplies and power supplies that do not have enough dedicate outputs that are required by the card.
Those daisy chained cables are the worst idea of all bad ideas ever.
It all comes down to MONEY in the end, cost cutting.
They can lower the price on the PSUs by cutting cost providing less cables and having less connections on the PSU end.
Except the EVGA PSU I just got has 4 PCIe output and came with 4 cables, two of them being split. So the split cables would actually be a cost increase over just 4 straight.
That's a total of 6X PCIe Connections.
Would be more expensive to have 6X PCIe cables and 6X connections on the PSU end.
Understand now?
And you would include 6 PCIe cables with a power supply that has 4 PCIe outputs because..... ?
They are all but giving you the green light to daisy chain with the included cables. 4 outputs, 4 cables but a total of 6 possible devices. Understand now ?
It's cost cutting and marketing, if they can save $10 to $20 a unit they will do it. As it seems that $10 or $20 seems to be a million to some people who are buying a PSU.  They include the daisy chains but tell people not to use them. It is pretty standard for those who actually do know what they talking about NOT to use daisy chained cables or splitters.
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 14:16:40
(permalink)
kevinc313
Intoxicus
kevinc313
Fine to daisy chain two connectors on a FTW3, plus one full cable. For operation at STOCK clocks and power (380w). Preferably daisychain connectors 1 and 3, they draw slightly less power and 2.
On mine with a 1300w seasonic psu, took 3 daisychain cables, extracted the pins and cut off the extra daisychain connectors. Seasonic doesn't supply any non-daisychain cables. Have seen 485w peaks with the 450w bios.
If you want to do it that's your risk. Just don't ask others to take that same risk.
LOL. You are wrong. This is literally what EVGA advised.
BTW here's my thicc Timespy run.
https://www.3dmark.com/spy/16605955
From an EVGA PSU manual: "NOTE 2: We recommend to use a single PCI-E cable to connect per port on graphic cards if your video card requires high power such as equipped with more than 2 PCI-E connectors 6pin + 8pin and 8pin + 8pin" The EVGA manual and Techs disagree with Jacob... https://imgur.com/MaMt5x2 https://imgur.com/REokmFZ
https://imgur.com/9zIQljV  
post edited by Intoxicus - 2021/01/07 14:19:21
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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RickJamesBish
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 14:26:58
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jankerson
It's cost cutting and marketing, if they can save $10 to $20 a unit they will do it.
As it seems that $10 or $20 seems to be a million to some people who are buying a PSU.
They include the daisy chains but tell people not to use them.
It is pretty standard for those who actually do know what they talking about NOT to use daisy chained cables or splitters.
Not sure how splitting two of the four included cables with a 4 output PSU is cost cutting. The are supplying two extra connections and extra wire that at the very least makes it appear that splitting is ok. The two extra connections are not needed. 4 outputs, 4 single cables. The include the daisy chain but tell people not to use them ? You mean here on the forum ? Where I just pointed out and can show posts where one Rep says its ok and another says its ok if the PSU comes with a split ? So what about all the people who don't come to the forum, and are building their first PC and bought an EVGA PSU that came with splits cables. Is it outside the realm of likelihood that maybe they think the manufacturer might know what they are doing and have included safe options for them to use, so they use this one cable that splits to reduce clutter, and not the two separate cables? Anyway done with that. Fact is they have backed themselves into a situation where they want to condemn it, but have include cables in their own PSUs, that according to one of their techs posts, is a fire hazard. 
post edited by rz22g - 2021/01/07 14:53:11
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 15:20:18
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Jankerson and rz22g,
I see you two going back and forth about a PSU having 4 pci ports and splitter cables requiring 6 ports total.
First and foremost, if you have two GPU’s with a total count of 6 power cable connection, get a power supply that has 6 pci connection ports..
If you only have one GPU, that is 3 power ports and you two are going back and forth over nothing. What is the point of this argument anyway?
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 15:36:07
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the_Scarlet_one
Jankerson and rz22g,
I see you two going back and forth about a PSU having 4 pci ports and splitter cables requiring 6 ports total.
First and foremost, if you have two GPU’s with a total count of 6 power cable connection, get a power supply that has 6 pci connection ports..
If you only have one GPU, that is 3 power ports and you two are going back and forth over nothing. What is the point of this argument anyway?
My point is a simple one. When they, the PSU makers 1st started suppling those freaking daisy chained cables the GPUs weren't pulling a lot of power so it made no real difference. However that changed over time as we all know yet they still make them with less ports and supply the daisy chained cables. It was a cost cutting measure when it 1st started that just continued. People assume using them is fine, we know what assumptions are. ;) It doesn't help matters that there are people that DO recommended using them for the reasons I outlined in another post of bad information being spread all over the internet. And no it doesn't help at all that they are still suppling them in the 1st place.
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ty_ger07
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 16:40:07
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Imagine non-engineers telling everyone how the person who engineered the PSU is wrong and how all of the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the PSU and video card are wrong. Then look at this thread. :P
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/07 16:42:54
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ty_ger07
Imagine non-engineers telling everyone how the person who engineered the PSU is wrong and how all of the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the PSU and video card are wrong. Then look at this thread. :P
Except there are Electrical Engineers (Some PHDs) and PSU designers telling people NOT to use them. ;) So there is always that.
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 08:41:09
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jankerson
ty_ger07
Imagine non-engineers telling everyone how the person who engineered the PSU is wrong and how all of the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the PSU and video card are wrong. Then look at this thread. :P
Except there are Electrical Engineers (Some PHDs) and PSU designers telling people NOT to use them. ;)
So there is always that.
Also add in that business interests can override the advice of engineers resulting in things the engineers hate and don't want to see. I can definitely see scenarios where the Engineers tell the execs that's a bad idea and the execs say do it anyways because costs.
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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Intoxicus
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 08:44:37
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rz22g
jankerson
It's cost cutting and marketing, if they can save $10 to $20 a unit they will do it.
As it seems that $10 or $20 seems to be a million to some people who are buying a PSU.
They include the daisy chains but tell people not to use them.
It is pretty standard for those who actually do know what they talking about NOT to use daisy chained cables or splitters.
Not sure how splitting two of the four included cables with a 4 output PSU is cost cutting. The are supplying two extra connections and extra wire that at the very least makes it appear that splitting is ok. The two extra connections are not needed. 4 outputs, 4 single cables.
The include the daisy chain but tell people not to use them ? You mean here on the forum ? Where I just pointed out and can show posts where one Rep says its ok and another says its ok if the PSU comes with a split ?
So what about all the people who don't come to the forum, and are building their first PC and bought an EVGA PSU that came with splits cables. Is it outside the realm of likelihood that maybe they think the manufacturer might know what they are doing and have included safe options for them to use, so they use this one cable that splits to reduce clutter, and not the two separate cables?
Anyway done with that. Fact is they have backed themselves into a situation where they want to condemn it, but have include cables in their own PSUs, that according to one of their techs posts, is a fire hazard.
Well I have a different tech AND the EVGA PSU manual contradicting that tech. Like I said EVGA needs to have an internal meeting and put out a definitive statement with technical explanations as to the reasoning behind their advice. So far this is a potential liability issue for EVGA. If someone uses a daisy chain on EVGA's advice and it causes a serious issue that's a bad scene for EVGA. For the sake of liability alone they should stop telling people to use daisy chains. It's safer for EVGA also.
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 08:46:27
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Intoxicus
jankerson
ty_ger07
Imagine non-engineers telling everyone how the person who engineered the PSU is wrong and how all of the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the PSU and video card are wrong. Then look at this thread. :P
Except there are Electrical Engineers (Some PHDs) and PSU designers telling people NOT to use them. ;)
So there is always that.
Also add in that business interests can override the advice of engineers resulting in things the engineers hate and don't want to see.
I can definitely see scenarios where the Engineers tell the execs that's a bad idea and the execs say do it anyways because costs.
VERY long history of that happening. Planes falling out of the sky and cars exploding from rear end crashes as simple examples.
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Dwarfy
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 09:25:30
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Ok some facts 16 awg is rated (MAX) 10A @ 12v There are 3 12v+ cables per 6(and 8) pin connector And min 3 gnd 3 * 10A = 30A = 360W 3 connecters = 9 * 10A = 90A = 1080W These are the absolute maximum, but there are factors Less cables = greater chance of voltage drop Less cables = hotter cables Less cables = more power going through less connections (remember that the power has to leave the psu > connector > cable > connector > gpu If you were to hard wire your psu to your gpu then bam nice clean connections = less cables But as is recommended and the absolute right thing to do is use more cables = less power per cable = stable power/lower temps Also remember that the connections are crimp not solder. as noted here https://www.molex.com/webdocs/datasheets/pdf/en-us/0039000077_CRIMP_TERMINALS.pdfThis connector is rated @ 9A MAX (* 3 = 324W (108W per connector)) Can you use daisys yes Should you........NO unless you are confident in your PSU and it's cables. Cheap psu's will have daisys to save money Premium psu's will have daisys to save space Also again multi rail psu is an absolute NO to using daisy as it defies the point of the multi rail. 500W draw = 41.66 Amps over 9 connectors thats 4.63A per cable you are already at 50% of the connectors rating it's comfortable right? Take away 1 set and Now you're at 6.94A per connector and that is now getting close to the safe limit.
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 09:29:39
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Dwarfy
Ok some facts
16 awg is rated (MAX) 10A @ 12v
There are 3 12v+ cables per 6(and 8) pin connector
And min 3 gnd
3 * 10A = 30A = 360W
3 connecters = 9 * 10A = 90A = 1080W
These are the absolute maximum, but there are factors
Less cables = greater chance of voltage drop
Less cables = hotter cables
Less cables = more power going through less connections (remember that the power has to leave the psu > connector > cable > connector > gpu
If you were to hard wire your psu to your gpu then bam nice clean connections = less cables
But as is recommended and the absolute right thing to do is use more cables = less power per cable = stable power/lower temps
Also remember that the connections are crimp not solder. as noted here https://www.molex.com/webdocs/datasheets/pdf/en-us/0039000077_CRIMP_TERMINALS.pdf
This connector is rated @ 9A MAX (* 3 = 324W (108W per connector))
Can you use daisys yes
Should you........NO unless you are confident in your PSU and it's cables.
Cheap psu's will have daisys to save money
Premium psu's will have daisys to save space
Also again multi rail psu is an absolute NO to using daisy as it defies the point of the multi rail.
500W draw = 41.66 Amps over 9 connectors thats 4.63A per cable you are already at 50% of the connectors rating it's comfortable right? Take away 1 set and Now you're at 6.94A per connector and that is now getting close to the safe limit.
EXCEPT most PSUs don't come with 16 AWG PCIe cables. MOST are 18 AWG or smaller. Same with MOST after market cables and extensions.
post edited by jankerson - 2021/01/08 09:34:23
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Dwarfy
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 09:46:21
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18 awg is max 7A which would put you at 100% capacity at 500W over 2 pcie connections Also the MSI ventus 3x oc has 2 8pin and max power of 350W aka 4.86A per pin (6)
post edited by Dwarfy - 2021/01/08 09:49:08
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jankerson
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 09:48:53
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Dwarfy
18 awg is max 7A which would put you at 100% capacity at 500W over 2 pcie connections
If the connectors can handle it without melting. The issue is there is no enforceable standard on what they use.
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Dwarfy
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Re: PSA: Do NOT use Daisy Chains for 3000 series!!!
2021/01/08 09:50:25
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jankerson
Dwarfy
18 awg is max 7A which would put you at 100% capacity at 500W over 2 pcie connections
If the connectors can handle it without melting.
The issue is there is no enforceable standard on what they use.
The connectors are rated at 9A so 18 awg cable would melt before the connectors
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