tubnotub1
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 18:51:39
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@Evga_JacobF any word as to whether or not FTW3 air-cooled owners will be able to step-up to the water-cooled counterparts (Hybrid/Kingpin)?
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eg1122
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 20:08:07
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tubnotub1
@Evga_JacobF any word as to whether or not FTW3 air-cooled owners will be able to step-up to the water-cooled counterparts (Hybrid/Kingpin)?
Hybrids and Kingpin are limited supply and have never been in the step up program. So I doubt they will be in it this time around. Best you could do is buy hybrid kit for the FTW3 or sell it and buy Kingpin.
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Bcassiman
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 20:19:51
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I’m getting me a kit for my 3080. Can’t wait!
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Gorno
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 20:26:32
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Bcassiman
I’m getting me a kit for my 3080. Can’t wait!
Thats probably the best way to go, if the hybrid cooler ever craps, or wears out you can just switch back to the air cooler. At least thats what I'm telling myself if the notify me email comes for an air cooled card before a hybrid one.
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 20:40:37
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Bcassiman
I’m getting me a kit for my 3080. Can’t wait!
If it only drops your temperatures by 5-10C, is it worth it? I don't know any information about the boost clock for the 3080s from 40 to 60C, my card currently runs at 62-64C with 400W.
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yaggaz
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 20:53:21
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SlimJ87D
But pushing 450W of power, my FTW3 AIB is at 68C... I would think a 240mm radiator would keep it at 45C at least.
What % of fan speed is that with the temps and power draw?
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/18 23:15:06
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yaggaz
SlimJ87D
But pushing 450W of power, my FTW3 AIB is at 68C... I would think a 240mm radiator would keep it at 45C at least.
What % of fan speed is that with the temps and power draw?
75-80%. That's gaming, it's not like it sits 450W 100% of the time.
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yaggaz
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 01:16:52
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SlimJ87D
75-80%. That's gaming, it's not like it sits 450W 100% of the time.
Thanks. Gives me hope for the Hybrid even more.
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dominic2189
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 02:49:48
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SlimJ87D
Bcassiman
I’m getting me a kit for my 3080. Can’t wait!
If it only drops your temperatures by 5-10C, is it worth it?
I don't know any information about the boost clock for the 3080s from 40 to 60C, my card currently runs at 62-64C with 400W.
Absolutely. My hybrid 1070Ti SC GPU clocks around 2068 Mhz and still caps at 50-52C, never seen it go any higher. It performs pretty darn good imo. Can't wait for Hydro Copper!
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 09:40:21
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yaggaz
KingEngineRevUp
75-80%. That's gaming, it's not like it sits 450W 100% of the time.
Thanks. Gives me hope for the Hybrid even more.
Well I need to see some reviews of it at least. https://twitter.com/evga_jacobf/status/1313944685375709184?s=21 Because that's not that great honestly or rather it means the air cooler on the FTW3 is just really good compared to last generations. dominic2189
KingEngineRevUp
Bcassiman
I’m getting me a kit for my 3080. Can’t wait!
If it only drops your temperatures by 5-10C, is it worth it?
I don't know any information about the boost clock for the 3080s from 40 to 60C, my card currently runs at 62-64C with 400W.
Absolutely. My hybrid 1070Ti SC GPU clocks around 2068 Mhz and still caps at 50-52C, never seen it go any higher. It performs pretty darn good imo. Can't wait for Hydro Copper!
Roman's test don't show that great of a result from water cooling the 30 series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmafIrSFSNg The thing is, the air coolers for the 30 series are very good, they're keeping cards at 58-65C already. I understand from the 10 and 20 series, cards were in the mid to high 70Cs. That's not the case this generation. When drawing 380W, with 75% fan speed I'm sitting at around 58C. If a hybrid cooler only gets us to 55C, I don't know how much we'll actually get, and Roman's test kind of makes me feel like it might not be much at all. Summary of his test: Stock: Card ran at 64C had a Water Cooled what looks to be a 60mm thick 360mm radiator at 47C  I hybrid my cards from the 10 and 20 series. It definitely helped with better stability because my cards were sitting in the 78C range sometimes. Getting them down to 55-60C surely helped not just stability but more boost clocks. But from my observations, the FTW3's air cooler is pretty damn good, already putting the card within a 58-65C range. That's pretty much close to the temperatures my hybrid 10 and 20 series were at. I'll wait for more test though, this is just one test of course, but I'm not sure how much better the hybrids can cool than the 30 series air coolers. Roman had a thick radiator on this 3090 he was testing and it was only at 47C. The hybrid is going to be 240mm and not as thick.  So Jacob's post about the hybrid putting a 3090 at 55-60C sounds correct. I mean, look at the FTW3 cooler, it's the size of a 280mm radiator itself pretty much.  All I'm saying is that getting a hybrid will be good for noise if anything. But performance, we should have realistic expectations. The Navy SEALs say, hope for the best but prepare for the worse.
post edited by KingEngineRevUp - 2020/12/07 15:42:42
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tubnotub1
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 15:10:23
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eg1122
Hybrids and Kingpin are limited supply and have never been in the step up program. So I doubt they will be in it this time around. Best you could do is buy hybrid kit for the FTW3 or sell it and buy Kingpin.
Thanks for the clarification! I will just grab the kit when they come out. I had aspirations of going KP but if it isn't every available for the setup program an ftw AOI kit will have to do.
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kring
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 16:21:20
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I anticipate it's mostly sound, but should bump temps down 10-15c which should allow for the higher clocks of max air cooling occur but at the noise of near idle fans.
I consider that a win - and the net result is a significant boost over stock clock speeds at quiet noise and low temps. I hope people don't expect by changing the cooler from air to water it actually makes the GPU/MEM "faster" by anything more than a hair. It's the same chip and memory and heat usually generates instantly as the power hits the chip and the card has it's max ability established internally, regardless of air/water cooling.
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crash822
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 17:50:06
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I can't image 70% fan speed is in any way quiet. I do have headphones but I generally prefer to use desk speakers. I think the hybrid will be much quieter even if it only had 5c lower temps
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Dabadger84
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 22:15:09
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Am I correct in assuming if someone opts to buy/get in queue for a 3080 FTW3 Hybrid they won't be rejected because they already own a 3080? I'd highly prefer having a Hybrid card, and I'd rather have it preinstalled than install it myself... so I'm pretty likely to buy the FTW3 Hybrid & resell my current GPU, if I'm not blocked from purchasing the newer one on it's release.
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arestavo
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 22:18:45
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Dabadger84
Am I correct in assuming if someone opts to buy/get in queue for a 3080 FTW3 Hybrid they won't be rejected because they already own a 3080? I'd highly prefer having a Hybrid card, and I'd rather have it preinstalled than install it myself... so I'm pretty likely to buy the FTW3 Hybrid & resell my current GPU, if I'm not blocked from purchasing the newer one on it's release.
It's per sku, and the FTW3 and FTW3 Hybrid will be different. I remember Jacob answering that very question a week or two ago (someone asked about XC3 and FTW3).
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Dabadger84
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 22:29:59
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arestavo
Dabadger84
Am I correct in assuming if someone opts to buy/get in queue for a 3080 FTW3 Hybrid they won't be rejected because they already own a 3080? I'd highly prefer having a Hybrid card, and I'd rather have it preinstalled than install it myself... so I'm pretty likely to buy the FTW3 Hybrid & resell my current GPU, if I'm not blocked from purchasing the newer one on it's release.
It's per sku, and the FTW3 and FTW3 Hybrid will be different. I remember Jacob answering that very question a week or two ago (someone asked about XC3 and FTW3).
Sick. I'll plan on doing that then. I love this card but it doubling as a space heater with the side of my case being semi-open in it's current configuration is making the fall very interesting having to run my AC more often. lol I'm fiddling with GTA V settings at the moment trying to find the right mix of AA/resolution scaling & FPS, trying to get it flatlined at 100 or 120(Hz/FPS) at 3440x1440 with maximum settings & only messing with anti-aliasing & resolution scaling is proving a challenge.
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arestavo
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 22:34:08
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Dabadger84
Sick. I'll plan on doing that then. I love this card but it doubling as a space heater with the side of my case being semi-open in it's current configuration is making the fall very interesting having to run my AC more often. lol I'm fiddling with GTA V settings at the moment trying to find the right mix of AA/resolution scaling & FPS, trying to get it flatlined at 100 or 120(Hz/FPS) at 3440x1440 with maximum settings & only messing with anti-aliasing & resolution scaling is proving a challenge.
Just a reminder that even though a card will run cooler under water, the same amount of heat is dumped into your room regardless of air or water cooled. But you probably knew that and aren't expecting to run your AC less 
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Dabadger84
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 22:44:43
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arestavo
Dabadger84
Sick. I'll plan on doing that then. I love this card but it doubling as a space heater with the side of my case being semi-open in it's current configuration is making the fall very interesting having to run my AC more often. lol I'm fiddling with GTA V settings at the moment trying to find the right mix of AA/resolution scaling & FPS, trying to get it flatlined at 100 or 120(Hz/FPS) at 3440x1440 with maximum settings & only messing with anti-aliasing & resolution scaling is proving a challenge.
Just a reminder that even though a card will run cooler under water, the same amount of heat is dumped into your room regardless of air or water cooled. But you probably knew that and aren't expecting to run your AC less
The difference between the heat venting right at me and the heat venting out of a radiator out of the top of the case makes a big difference :-D My 1080 Ti FTW3 Hybrid put out some good heat under gaming load through the radiator but it was never pointed AT ME like the 3080 FTW3 Ultra's is. I would assume the card is going to run much cooler with the 240mm radiator setup than it does on this cooler. All I know is my 1080 Ti stayed under 45C almost it's entire lifespan because of the hybrid cooler whilst most FTW3 non-Hybrid users were seeing muuuuuch higher temps. But I also had one of those crazy server-grade 3000RPM fans on the radiator that was adjusting it's speed based on exhaust temp of the radiator via a temperature sensor plugged in to my motherboard... so when I was gaming (with headphones on) it would kick up & keep it cool. Plan on doing similar with the new one, but of course with 2 of them instead of one.
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GTXJackBauer
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 23:13:28
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yaggaz
GTXJackBauer
Yaggaz, you have some goalz here. 
For one, it won't work.
~mad scientist laugh~ Oh we shall see...
 jspataro99
Yeah I think he just means 15-20C cooler at idle or under load, at any case relatively compared to air cooled.
That range is usually based on higher air cooled GPU temps. The closer you get to ambient temp, the harder it is to maintain such a range as more cooling capacity will be needed at the least. Will these 240mm Hybrids with the proper installation, cooler ambient room temps, upgraded rad fans, case design, case airflow, cable management, etc. get close to more expensive custom H20 loops? We shall see but I wouldn't bet against a efficient custom loop. Either way, should see some nice Hybrid numbers with the bump to the 240mm rad. 
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/19 23:18:11
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kring
I anticipate it's mostly sound, but should bump temps down 10-15c which should allow for the higher clocks of max air cooling occur but at the noise of near idle fans.
I consider that a win - and the net result is a significant boost over stock clock speeds at quiet noise and low temps. I hope people don't expect by changing the cooler from air to water it actually makes the GPU/MEM "faster" by anything more than a hair. It's the same chip and memory and heat usually generates instantly as the power hits the chip and the card has it's max ability established internally, regardless of air/water cooling.
I do not believe it will drop temperatures 10 to 15C. Right now I am at 62C with 400W with a 3080 FTW3 and 75% fan speed, if it dropped 15C then that's 47C. Roman put a thick 360mm radiator on a 3090 that has a TDP around 400W. He's had it at 47C. The hybrid is a 240mm radiator and it will be the standard thickness. Look at the FTW3 heatsink already, it's huge. Its dimensions are greater than most 280mm radiators. It's already doing a beastly job. The hybrid more than likely won't function much greater than this, specially since Jacob already said it's going to put a 3090 around 55-60C. Again, I believe it's not the radiators fault, but rather the air cooler for the FTW3 is huge. It's just a really good air cooler, better than any FTW air cooler that has existed before it. So all I'm saying, we should have realistic or conservative expectations cause otherwise, the results can only be true or better. Not worse :D.
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anon12377
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 05:50:44
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The temps and noise on the FTW3 Ultra are actually pretty bad according to GamersNexus. Worst of all the cards tested so far, including the FE.
40dBA noise-normalized thermals it was:
ASUS RTX 3080 TUF 56.4°C
Gigabyte RTX 3080 Eagle 60.8°C
NVIDIA RTX 3080 FE 70°C
EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 71°C
Seems like it's not a great performer as far as temperature & noise goes and is gonna need the hybrid cooling.
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ajropey
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 06:02:11
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anon12377
The temps and noise on the FTW3 Ultra are actually pretty bad according to GamersNexus. Worst of all the cards tested so far, including the FE.
40dBA noise-normalized thermals it was:
ASUS RTX 3080 TUF 56.4°C
Gigabyte RTX 3080 Eagle 60.8°C
NVIDIA RTX 3080 FE 70°C
EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 71°C
Seems like it's not a great performer as far as temperature & noise goes and is gonna need the hybrid cooling.
You should be looking at power normalised results as well for a fair comparison. So its really: 40dBA noise-normalized thermalsASUS RTX 3080 TUF : 56.4°C (336W) Gigabyte RTX 3080 Eagle : 60.8°C (336W) EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 : 64.7°C (331W) EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 : 71°C (377W) It's still not a good look when a much cheaper card and smaller card is 8.3°C cooler at the same settings. Hybrid kit here I come.
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z1nonly
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 06:08:17
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anon12377
The temps and noise on the FTW3 Ultra are actually pretty bad according to GamersNexus. Worst of all the cards tested so far, including the FE.
40dBA noise-normalized thermals it was:
ASUS RTX 3080 TUF 56.4°C
Gigabyte RTX 3080 Eagle 60.8°C
NVIDIA RTX 3080 FE 70°C
EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 71°C
Seems like it's not a great performer as far as temperature & noise goes and is gonna need the hybrid cooling.
The FTW3 is pulling more power than any of the other boards. It turns out that Nvidia has already cranked the power up well past the point of diminishing returns, so the extra power draw doesn't really help performance. Still, more power means more heat.
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kring
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 06:35:13
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KingEngineRevUp
kring
I anticipate it's mostly sound, but should bump temps down 10-15c which should allow for the higher clocks of max air cooling occur but at the noise of near idle fans.
I do not believe it will drop temperatures 10 to 15C. Right now I am at 62C with 400W with a 3080 FTW3 and 75% fan speed, if it dropped 15C then that's 47C. Roman put a thick 360mm radiator on a 3090 that has a TDP around 400W. He's had it at 47C. The hybrid is a 240mm radiator and it will be the standard thickness.
15 would be a stretch, but 10c is reasonable. My experience coming from the 2080 Ti KinPin was it idled at 24c, basically ambient temp. and under load it hit low 50's. Right now my 3080 idles at 33c and under load gets in higher 60's range. I figure with the cooler the same as the kingpin's which can drop idle temps 14c, that we should see load temps in the 50's with a properly flowing case. I'm going to put my wooden nickel bet on it being a 10c load drop. When I get mine, I'll try to remember to be all scientificy and maybe run load for 20 min, then do a benchmark on temps.... swap to the Hybrid and do the same. just for kicks. after thought - I will use 4 fans on the 240 rad in push/pull configuration.
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S3V3RI7Y
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 06:44:18
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I’ll try to remember to do the same once I get my card and kit. Personally, I’ll be swapping the fans out for the nf-A12’s but only use two.
Also just wondering out loud if EVGA will sell 360 rad hybrid kits as well because that would be an insta buy from me. Kinda dissapointed they have only mentioned the 240 for now.
Any info as such @EVGA_JacobF ?
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 07:18:06
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anon12377
The temps and noise on the FTW3 Ultra are actually pretty bad according to GamersNexus. Worst of all the cards tested so far, including the FE.
40dBA noise-normalized thermals it was:
ASUS RTX 3080 TUF 56.4°C
Gigabyte RTX 3080 Eagle 60.8°C
NVIDIA RTX 3080 FE 70°C
EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 71°C
Seems like it's not a great performer as far as temperature & noise goes and is gonna need the hybrid cooling.
Tech power up doesn't have the same results Steve does here. The TUF OC runs at 75% fan speed and gets 63C, average power consumption 305W, max 372W https://tpucdn.com/review...locks-and-thermals.pnghttps://tpucdn.com/review...wer-gaming-average.pnghttps://tpucdn.com/review.../power-gaming-peak.pngThe FTW3 is running at 65% fan speed (TPU is using GPU-Z which doesn't report the right percentage for EVGA cards, 1968rpm /3000 rpm = 65%), Average Power consumption of 317W, Max 400W https://tpucdn.com/review...ocks-and-thermals2.pnghttps://tpucdn.com/review...wer-gaming-average.pnghttps://tpucdn.com/review.../power-gaming-peak.pngTUF OC vs FTW3, that's a 5C difference where the TUF is running a 10% higher in fan speed and the FTW3 is drawing 12-30W more. Of course the FTW3 is going to run a little hotter in this scenario. Run the same fan percentage and same power draws on the card and tell me how their coolers design. Now something I'll agree with you on, yes the TUF is the best bang for the buck in terms of performance, certainly. But people grab the FTW3 for the RGB lightbar, at least I hope that's the reason or it's higher OC headroom. And yes, Steve is omitting benchmarks and testing because they're only a few percent in range of one another, but just thought id mention that the FTW3 is one of the top performing cards. https://imgur.com/a/s76TFCMhttps://www.techpowerup.c...-tuf-gaming-oc/32.htmlhttps://www.techpowerup.c...080-ftw3-ultra/32.htmlAt the end of the day, the TUF is definitely the best bang for the buck. But I don't think people are shopping for the FTW3 because of its performance per a dollar, I'm certain it is it's OC headroom (can perform on par with a stock 3090) and RGB lightbar. https://imgur.com/a/lqxsHJoThere's no other card that comes close on terms of RGB capability, subjectively speaking. Both are fantastic cards for different reasons. It's a "to each their own."
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B0baganoosh
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 07:30:46
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I see a lot of people comparing previous gens so I may as well throw in some of my observations. I have a 2080 Super Hybrid XC and it never gets past 52-55°C while folding at stock settings. If I throw a +90 on the core and +300 on the memory (which can go farther, this is just one of the 100% stable fall-back clock profiles I keep handy) and game in Battlefield V or Ark (1440p, maximum settings), I never see temperatures over 42-47°C. Some info about my setup: i7 5820k @ 4.2GHz with an EVGA CLC-280, radiator exhausting out the top of the case (this gets to about 60-62°C while [link=mailto:f@h]f@h[/link] on a 50% load. I try to be nice to it as it's getting up there in years lol. It gets to about 45-55°C during gaming loads, which vary greatly, usually highest while loading maps and not playing) EVGA x99 Micro2 32GB of 3200MHz CAS15 G.Skill DDR4 BeQuiet! Darkbase 900 case. The Hybrid cooler is exhausting at the top rear of the case. I have 3 intakes, one at the bottom, two in the front, all pulling through filters. 140mm-each, all the BeQuiet! fans that came with the case. On the 2080S, I regularly see clocks in the 2080-2100MHz range. I'm not a heavy-overclocker most of the time. I usually try to see how well I can do for some benchmarks, which I did when I bought this card, but I didn't write anything down so I don't remember what my top clocks were. The primary point of this post is to point out the temperatures. If you look at the review by Hexus of the non-hybrid version of my card, you can see that their gaming temperature was 71°C. I get nowhere near that. It was very apparent across 2080's that the cooler the card, the higher clocks you'll get, so even though the Hybrid-XC was a reference PCB and probably not the best binned GPU, it still does fairly decent, keeps a nice low temperature all the time, and looks pretty great. I'm quite interested in the 3080 Hybrid for this reason, but honestly, if you've gotten this far, you'll no doubt have noticed that I have been waiting for a CPU/motherboard upgrade for some time. I think that may come before a new graphics card for me, as the 2080 Super still has quite a lot of bite to it. I'm just going to wait a few months to see where Zen 3, Rocket Lake, and potentially Zen4/Alder-lake fall. I know that's almost a year more of waiting, but I still haven't seen the huge explosive improvement I have been waiting for and my computer still feels plenty fast, unlike when I upgrade from the prior i7-920 or QX6700 before that. The problem I have with going AMD is that I can't buy EVGA motherboards, which I have been using for the last ~13 years without fail. It will feel... wrong...to go away from that kind of familiarity lol.
6Q6CPFHPBPCU691 is a discount code anyone can use. i9 13900k - EVGA Z690 Classy - Nvidia RTX 4090 FE - G.Skill 32GB DDR5-6000 - WD SN850 2TB NVMe Gen4 - Be Quiet! Straight Power 12 1200W - Be Quiet! Dark Base 900 Pro. MO-RA3 420 Pro. Dark Palimpsest MODS RIGS post for build notes.
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z1nonly
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/20 08:24:36
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How previous generations performed isn't useful data in the absence of power numbers.
Ampere generates more heat than previous generations (stock vs stock) so if all we do is install Turing coolers on Ampere cards, temps will go up and it won't be the cooler's fault. (I know we can't "just" do that....The coolers have to match up to the components they are cooling)
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B0baganoosh
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/21 14:41:21
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z1nonly
How previous generations performed isn't useful data in the absence of power numbers.
Ampere generates more heat than previous generations (stock vs stock) so if all we do is install Turing coolers on Ampere cards, temps will go up and it won't be the cooler's fault. (I know we can't "just" do that....The coolers have to match up to the components they are cooling)
I get that. I wasn't suggesting that it should be a perfect comparison. You have to size the heat-sink for the heat-load you're trying to dissipate and there's clearly more heat/power. It was intended to be just informational based on the assumption that the previous generation cards were design to dissipate their own heat. I compared previous air solution to previous hybrid solution for the same heat-load. I would hope (and that's all it really is) that there's a similar comparison to come from the 3080 hybrid cards, but obviously I don't know that and we won't know until we see the numbers. All I can say is that the 2080 super xc hybrid is a very well-cooled card and if they use the same targets while designing the 3080 hybrid, they should be sweet. It had an average temperature of 49°C during a time spy run, which is miles ahead of where the air coolers kept them.
6Q6CPFHPBPCU691 is a discount code anyone can use. i9 13900k - EVGA Z690 Classy - Nvidia RTX 4090 FE - G.Skill 32GB DDR5-6000 - WD SN850 2TB NVMe Gen4 - Be Quiet! Straight Power 12 1200W - Be Quiet! Dark Base 900 Pro. MO-RA3 420 Pro. Dark Palimpsest MODS RIGS post for build notes.
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melturface
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Re: EVGA 30 Series HYBRID Updates
2020/10/21 19:44:23
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Well since this has been pushed back so far I will buy the FTW3 ultra when I can and upgrade it with the kit later or purchase a KPE in Feb when it comes out and sell the FTW. Did Jacob say any idea of what the kit is gonna cost? I never looked to see what the last one went for, but im sure that was a 120mm and not a 240mm.
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