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Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 10:24:28 (permalink)
@ somethingc00l
 
"Lol, Flonkam not gonna give it up. "
 
Lol, give what up, exactly? I'm attempting to have a discussion--if you disagree with anything that I've said, feel free to offer an argument or correction. Otherwise you are not contributing anything with such a comment, which is ironic considering that is what you seem to be implying of me
 
@ ty_ger07

 
"Comparing a brushless DC fan motor to a stepper motor is not very unfair."
 
But he didn't make a comparison, he misidentified the motors as steppers at least three times, which calls into question any assumptions which follow. I'm not making a big deal of that, but at the same time, it's not nit-picking to point it out. If he had done it only once, I would have assumed it was a mistake and not even have mentioned it.
 
"The brushless DC fan motor is essentially the same in construction to a stepper motor except that the coils are sequentially fired by a hall effect sensor and circuitry internally instead of having each individual coil wire pair externally controlled by a host device."
 
This is not correct. A brushless can be controlled externally by a host device with no onboard sensor(s). I believe that any attempt to troubleshoot this issue by assuming these motors are steppers is sloppy logic.
 
"PWM specifications specify a minimum floor speed which the fan will not drop below even when the PWM signal continues to be reduced all the way to 0%."
 
I suspect that you are confusing different aspects. A pulse width of zero and a setting of "0%" are not necessarily the same thing. If you are saying that a fan is not designed to run below a minimum RPM, then you are correct. But there is no reason that a control circuit cannot bring a fan to 0 RPM when necessary, if not by a pulse width of zero, then by interrupting the power, regardless of the pulse width and of the RPM prior to interruption. PWM is only used to control speed. Your assertion that a fan must always remain spinning when a computer is running is incorrect.
 
"it is probably a good idea to accept the facts and reality and spend your time understanding why it is happening rather than burying your head in the sand or complaining and demanding things which are physically impossible"
 
Could you at least do me the favor of pasting the text which shows where I denied a problem existed, complained, or made any demands....or were you just speaking generally and not actually referring to me?
 
"given the construction of the device in front of you...Please consider adjusting the fan behavior using the methods and tools provided...The fact that it annoys you is inconsequential."
 
I already stated earlier in this thread that I have not been able to purchase a 2080 Ti yet, which is one reason why I would like to know what the problem is before purchasing. But for what it's worth, the EVGA 980 Ti that I am using now has no problem cutting power to the fans when temperatures drop, nor do the fans exhibit any noise when spinning up.
 
Also, I never said anything about being annoyed. I believe I'm not out of place when I mention that you have made several baseless assumptions about me. That kind of logic doesn't work at all when troubleshooting.
 
"It's not a defect if it works as intended."
 
Are you saying that--unbeknownst to you before purchasing it--the cellphone I manufacture routinely heats to 60 C, it is not a defect, as long as I intended that operation? Come on...I'm afraid your logic doesn't hold up.
 
I only know what has been posted in this thread. You never addressed my point regarding the video posted, and the fact that not one person has posted to state that his noise does not match that of the video. Or that there are multiple verified instances of the noise being traced to an obstruction, but as of yet not one verified instance of any other cause. I never stated that it MUST be an obstruction, or that it could not be the motors, as you know by reading this thread. What I am doing is adhering to sound methodology, and not taking anything for granted.
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/06 12:26:06
#121
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 10:46:24 (permalink)
danyulcohen
 It's unfortunate you can't set a value below 25 percent on the custom curve, but I realize why that is necessary.
 

Huh? I'm able to set 0 fan speed with custom fan curves no problem on my 2080 XC.
 
Flonkam
 
Lol, give what up, exactly?


 
Arguing with like 3-4 expertly knowledgeable people who actually own the cards that they are wrong, and you who has not even physically seen one of these cards knows the true answer. Lol.
post edited by somethingc00l - 2018/12/06 10:50:28




#122
4790K
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 11:06:02 (permalink)
Flomkam is actually trying to light some shed on this issue even he hasnt purchased the card yet. he is just trying to get this discussion going on and im very happy about that. he actually made some very good points and spends alot of time writing it down. Thanks Flonkam and others who take this issue serious and trying to find the root cause. 


 
Benütze diesen Code um 5% beim Kauf einer GPU und Anderem zu sparen! 
58UK6COGZQEYSLA
#123
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 12:24:33 (permalink)
 
@ 4790K
 
Thanks, I appreciate it. And I appreciate anyone and everyone who attempts to share information and apply critical thinking in an attempt to get to the bottom of this.
 
I've purchased five EVGA cards--and only EVGA cards--since building my first gaming PC in 2008, but this is the first time I've even remotely considered spending over $600 on a GPU outside of a fever dream. And actually the only reason for that is that I now have a 4K display and have become dependent on 60 fps after ten years of console ports (It's an OLED, so I can't just render a lower resolution using 1:1 scaling).
 
@ somethingc00l
 
I was not aware that I was conversing with one expert, much less three or four. I in fact never stated that I know exactly what the problem is, nor have I stated that I know for a fact what the answer(s) is/are...unless I forgot about it. In which case, could you just post the relevant text so that I can refresh my memory?
 
When I believe that someone posts innaccurate information, I am going to point it out, as I would expect would be done if I did the same. And if it turns out that I am wrong about something--or have wronged someone--I will apologize, as I in fact have done in this very thread.
#124
ty_ger07
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 14:43:55 (permalink)
A brushless can be controlled externally by a host device with no onboard sensor(s).
That's not how a single computer fan works though, is it? There is very little difference between a stepper motor and a brushless motor, is there? Semantics. His assessment was correct regardless of semantics.

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#125
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 14:55:24 (permalink)
@ Flonkam
Flonkam
I was not aware that I was conversing with one expert, much less three or four. 



That part is clear. ty_ger07 is definitely an expert, and from the little tox1c90 has posted it is clear he is as well (and also pretty clear English is not his native language so jumping on him for saying stepper motor is not productive, when his intent is clear). 
 
The PWM spec is here:
https://www.glkinst.com/cables/cable_pics/4_Wire_PWM_Spec.pdf
 
You can clearly see on page 14 figure 3 that under 20% duty cycle is undefined behavior, exactly what ty_ger07 said (and not what you think he said).
 
I guess have fun theory crafting how it's possible a wire none of us can see is hitting the fan and making noise, I think at this point it's obvious what the real source is to anyone without an agenda.




#126
tox1c90
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 15:20:51 (permalink)
Just some YT videos to make it clearer what I meant with the two different issues:
 
1. Fan hitting cable: Some people in this thread mentioned they fixed the noise by changing or glueing wires:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRRPpPmR1JM (video from a guy who did exactly this to an EVGA 2080. In the beginning he demonstrates the kind of noise he wants to fix.)
For comparison, this is how a fan hitting a wire sounds like when running at full speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9a5NhvDbBA
I had this once with a Gigabyte graphics card, it sounded the same. If it is really related to a wire, it can't be that you here the noise just once. It will be with a repetition rate corresponding to the fans RPM.
 
2. The noise coming from the motors when the fan starts to move: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EnxbsB1Hg
This is the type of noise, which I think most of us are talking about since the beginning of this thread, sounding like a HDD seek noise. With my card it seems to be much more pronounced, as I can even hear it clearly through a damped case and not just by putting a microphone next to it.
 
Even in the first video, where the guy demonstrates that he fixed the problem, you can hear the sound from 2. slightly when the fans start to spin. He just doesn't seem to care about it. Happens at 1:28, I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's not related to the wires, because he carefully put all wires out of the way of the fan blades before.
 
I just wanted to point that out to the people who say it was caused by a wire and they were able to fix it. Are these people sure, that they had noise #2 and not noise #1? I don't think it is possible to fix #2 by doing any mechanical stuff.

Edit: I want to apologize for the confusion regarding stepper motor / DC brushless motors. It was my mistake, thank you for putting things right. :)
post edited by tox1c90 - 2018/12/06 15:44:53
#127
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 15:52:25 (permalink)
tox1c90

Even in the first video, where the guy demonstrates that he fixed the problem, you can hear the sound from 2. slightly when the fans start to spin. He just doesn't seem to care about it. Happens at 1:28, I think that makes it pretty obvious that it's not related to the wires, because he carefully put all wires out of the way of the fan blades before.

Great catch.




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Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 18:00:41 (permalink)
@ ty_ger07

"That's not how a single computer fan works though, is it? There is very little difference between a stepper motor and a brushless motor, is there? Semantics. His assessment was correct regardless of semantics."


I don't know what to tell you. You literally stated that one of the only essential differences between a brushless DC motor and a stepper motor is internal vs external control. That is false.
 
You are telling everyone here that a stepper and a brushless motor are essentially the same. In fact, they are so unlike each other that a stepper would never, ever be used to power a computer fan, or any fan. Is that or is that not correct?
 
EDIT: "This is PWM fan basics.  By stopping when the PWM signal reaches 0%, they violate PWM specifications.  PWM specifications specify a minimum floor speed which the fan will not drop below even when the PWM signal continues to be reduced all the way to 0%.  Maybe this is clearer: when the computer is on, a PWM fan should always be turning; if it ever stops turning while the computer is on, it violates PWM specifications."
 
somethingc00l decided to post specifications. Would you mind taking a look at Figures 5 and 6 (pages 16 and 17)?
(I apologize--I apparently am not yet able to post links myself.)
 
 
@ tox1c90
 
Thank you for posting the additional videos.
 
"If it is really related to a wire, it can't be that you here the noise just once. It will be with a repetition rate corresponding to the fans RPM."
 
I'm not sure that that is true, though. Depending on the specific circumstances, would it not be possible that a wire (or something else) could barely be within the blade's sweep, but when the air pressure rises, be blown away just enough to avoid further contact until the pressure drops? Depending on the springiness, could it not also fail to come back within the sweep of the blades right away when the pressure drops, meaning the sound isn't necessarily heard upon spinning down?
 
Here is part of what we do know for a fact: millions of PWM-controlled brushless DC fans are and have been started without any such sound, including those on my GTX 980 Ti. Actually, I just got right up to my GPU and listened closely when it switched from 0 RPM to X RPM to make sure that there wasn't a noise that I just never noticed. I heard nothing. I have had the card for 2.5 years and run a very quiet, open case.
 
So this indicates to me that whatever the issue is (and contrary to what somethingc00l thinks, I have never stated that I know what the issue is) it is not normal or unavoidable when spinning up a PWM-controlled fan from rest. Would you agree with this?
 
 
@ somethingc00l
 
"You can clearly see on page 14 figure 3 that under 20% duty cycle is undefined behavior"
 
What does that have to do with anything? Did ty_ger07 not state that such a fan should never stop spinning when a computer is powered on? Yes, he did. I stated that it is perfectly possible to stop a fan when desired, and in fact this occurs in (millions?) of fans all over the world, including in my case as we speak. Both of you are confusing the fact that a fan should not be run below a certain RPM with the idea that a fan should never be shut off. Stopping a fan does not require PWM. I am only responding to exactly what he said. I told you I admit when I'm wrong. Do you?
 
"I think at this point it's obvious what the real source is to anyone without an agenda."
 
If it's obvious to you, then why are you holding out? Is it an external obstruction? An interaction between the PWM signal and the motor? A faulty PWM signal? A physical defect in the fans causing an internal obstruction? Don't be coy! Let us know exactly what the problem is!
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/06 18:36:16
#129
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 19:44:58 (permalink)
Flonkam
If it's obvious to you, then why are you holding out? Is it an external obstruction? An interaction between the PWM signal and the motor? A faulty PWM signal? A physical defect in the fans causing an internal obstruction? Don't be coy! Let us know exactly what the problem is!


Well yeah, I already posted that 2 days ago, first post on page 4 https://forums.evga.com/FindPost/2892628
Maybe something in the design of hydro dynamic bearings makes them more prone to do this than ball or sleeve, I believe they rely on shaft spin speed to float so it makes sense.
 
Flonkam
Did ty_ger07 not state that such a fan should never stop spinning when a computer is powered on? Yes, he did.

No, he stated that a fan stopping is out of PWM spec. Which is technically wrong, it's undefined. You are completely missing his point for semantics, which is that due to the way the specs are written no fan manufacturer tests for, QC's for, or designs for: no noise on fan spin up. It can and will happen to any fan type out there.
post edited by somethingc00l - 2018/12/06 19:48:56




#130
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 22:19:02 (permalink)
@ somethingc00l
 
So it's not obvious, then? You simply offered a guess like I did?
 
At any rate, your idea is interesting (my apologies--I did see your earlier post, but didn't know until just now that the 2080 series is the first to use hydrodynamic bearings), but it doesn't seem as clear to me as it does to you. Assuming they are not patented Matsu****a FDBs, the only thing that occurs to me that could possibly make such a sound is the rotor being temporarily imbalanced at startup, due to the design you mentioned. But this would require actual percussion--this is a sharp, relatively strong sound--and this idea opens other questions.
 
Why does it occur only in some fans? This seems to indicate a defect rather than a design issue.
 
Why would EVGA choose a design that, unlike other bearing types, is possibly unsuited to start/stop operation, not only due to noise (according to EVGA, the bearings were selected for low-noise considerations), but more importantly, to the wear that occurs at spin-up?
 
 
"No, he stated that a fan stopping is out of PWM spec. Which is technically wrong, it's undefined."
 
If you would read the specs that you posted, you would see that you are both incorrect about PWM. Figures 5 and 6, pages 16 and 17.
 
 
"due to the way the specs are written no fan manufacturer tests for, QC's for, or designs for: no noise on fan spin up. It can and will happen to any fan type out there."
 
I fail to see what PWM has to do with what fan manufacturers don't test for, as brushless DC motors are designed to be run with steady direct current. PWM is, in the modern parlance, a "hack". And besides, of course they test for noise at start-up, as noise is one of the telltale signs of defect in a rotating mass.
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/06 22:23:49
#131
danyulcohen
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/06 23:39:00 (permalink)
somethingc00l
danyulcohen
 It's unfortunate you can't set a value below 25 percent on the custom curve, but I realize why that is necessary.
 

Huh? I'm able to set 0 fan speed with custom fan curves no problem on my 2080 XC.

 
Thanks. I guess I just assumed you couldn't set a 0% value in the custom fan curve because you can't set a 0% value when you turn off auto fan control on the main panel.
 
Anyway, thanks for the info. That is good to know in case I end up needing to use a custom fan curve for a specific game etc.
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tox1c90
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 05:07:52 (permalink)
Flonkam
I'm not sure that that is true, though. Depending on the specific circumstances, would it not be possible that a wire (or something else) could barely be within the blade's sweep, but when the air pressure rises, be blown away just enough to avoid further contact until the pressure drops? Depending on the springiness, could it not also fail to come back within the sweep of the blades right away when the pressure drops, meaning the sound isn't necessarily heard upon spinning down?

 
I think it is highly unlikely for such a small fan at lowest possible RPM to produce enough pressure to blow away a wire. You can't even feel any air flow when it starts ramping up. The noise is coming when the fan is just about to start movement, i.e. it has moved only a few mm until that. I get your point and could imagine this to happen, but more in a scenario where you ramp the fans to 12v / full speed and produce really high air pressure.
 
Flonkam
So this indicates to me that whatever the issue is (and contrary to what somethingc00l thinks, I have never stated that I know what the issue is) it is not normal or unavoidable when spinning up a PWM-controlled fan from rest. Would you agree with this?



I would fully agree to the statement that it is not unavoidable! There are more than enough fans out there which do not produce this noise. But actually, I don't think it is related to PWM, because none of my case fans are PWM fans, they are all 3-pin voltage controlled. And I know that noise coming from some of them when ramped up from 0rpm. This indicates that it might not necessarily happen due to PWM-related stuff.
 
Maybe you can not even necessarily blame the fan itself? I think it could also come from a cheap fan controller / voltage supply. Maybe it produces a weird spike or whatever when the output is enabled.
#133
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 10:44:12 (permalink)
tox1c90
I think it is highly unlikely for such a small fan at lowest possible RPM to produce enough pressure to blow away a wire. You can't even feel any air flow when it starts ramping up. The noise is coming when the fan is just about to start movement, i.e. it has moved only a few mm until that. I get your point and could imagine this to happen, but more in a scenario where you ramp the fans to 12v / full speed and produce really high air pressure.

 
Exactly. It seems maybe you misread what I wrote. The examples that I have encountered are the fan making a noise for a second or less upon spinning up from 0 RPM. Low air pressure = obstruction barely making contact = noise. Then, once the air pressure rises, the obstruction is "blown" away, and the noise ceases.
 
I was only putting this forward as a possibility, and in fact I later found verification online of this exact event--this same kind of noise exhibited briefly at start-up, where the cause turned out to be a wire making contact only very briefly until the air pressure rose enough to "blow" it away from the blade path.
 
Note that all along I have used the term "obstruction", because it of course does not have to be a wire. It could be any number of things that could be slightly contacting the blade(s), including faulty, out-of-spec parts, damaged parts, incorrect assembly/misalignment, etc.
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/07 10:48:40
#134
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 14:32:34 (permalink)
Flonkam
If you would read the specs that you posted, you would see that you are both incorrect about PWM. Figures 5 and 6, pages 16 and 17.

For someone so seemingly concerned with the minutiae of semantics, I would expect you to get this.
From the description of those figures: "The following graphs and definitions show three recommended solutions to handle PWM duty cycles that are less than the minimum operational RPM"
It is not part of the spec. Fan speed below minimum operational RPM is undefined by the spec, exactly what I said. Intel are nice guys and include some suggestions for you, but you can do literally anything you want down there.




#135
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 16:14:32 (permalink)
somethingc00l
For someone so seemingly concerned with the minutiae of semantics, I would expect you to get this.

 
"There is very little difference between a stepper motor and a brushless motor, is there?  Semantics."
 
Perhaps you can answer this, then: If I'm just nit-picking and the only difference is semantics (lol ), why is it that a stepper motor is never used to drive a fan? Why is it that no one will ever, ever see a stepper motor-powered fan in a GPU? Be as precise as you wish.
 
 
"because while it had been taken care of the noise when they are running, usually they are not specifically manufactured with dead silent spin-up in mind."
 
"To be even clearer, per PWM specifications, a PWM fan should never stop spinning during normal operation."
 
 
Can you please stop changing the subject of discussion to low-RPM operation in order to avoid admitting error? This particular subject in question is what happens when fans start from a stopped position, and the claim that the fans are not designed to stop.
 
The statement that a PWM-controlled fan should never stop during normal operation is false. All that I did was respectfully point that out. Again, facts, not semantics. And for some reason, here you are still pretending that that didn't happen (just "semantics"), and pretending that I have no idea what I'm talking about, or am just trying to make a big deal about nothing.
 
I have ignored your condescending language thus far, but if you are going to resort to denying reality in your effort to put me in my place, I'm afraid that discussion becomes impossible, no matter how much I may want to continue.
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/07 16:18:14
#136
noon22c
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 17:01:14 (permalink)
Hello, reporting some of my new findings. My GPU is 2070 XC Ultra.
I think I got rid of the clicking issue. I changed the "Power management mode" to "Optimal power" (had "Pref. max. perf." from the previous card) in the Nvidia control panel and disabled Windows fast startup.
Now when idle the GPU clock stays around 300-400mhz and the temp is around 38-40C, fans are off. This is when Precision X1 is not started/used.
Tested in Fallout4 for about 5 min., GPU clock was ~1900mhz, temp was around 60C, GPU usage 80-98%. After exiting the game, the clock is back to 300-400mhz, temp 45C (slowly going down), fans are off.
No clicking anymore. Looks like the important setting is to have the "Power management mode" set to "Optimal power" as before the card was set at 1410, running at 55C and fans were clicking when idle. Now the card properly downclocks itself thus not having the fans constantly trying to start and stop.
I think the card expects to be at the lower clock when idle. If it is at the default/high clock (1410 with my card) it gets confused and we see the fans turn on/off every five seconds producing annoying sounds.
Hopefully this is how it is going to be. I'll be observing how the card behaves for the next few days without Precision X1 loaded. If the "Optimal power" setting is the only thing I have to change in order to get rid of clicking, this is totally fine with me and I'll be keeping the card.
I'm planning to use Precision X1 in the future and have the fans custom curves enabled but still wanted to make sure that the card can function properly with just Nvidia driver and nothing else.
Will report here if case something changes and/or the clicking comes back.
#137
somethingc00l
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 18:20:21 (permalink)
Flonkam
Perhaps you can answer this, then: If I'm just nit-picking and the only difference is semantics (lol ), why is it that a stepper motor is never used to drive a fan? Why is it that no one will ever, ever see a stepper motor-powered fan in a GPU? Be as precise as you wish.

Perhaps pedantic would serve you better.
First off, I didn't say any of those quotes in your post, not sure why I got attribution.
My argument would be DC and stepper motors are quite similar for the purposes of discussing what could be generating noise; but I never put forth that, nor have I said anything about stepper motors in this thread. Not sure where that came from. But yes, it's absolutely semantics as a stepper motor IS a DC brushless motor, tox1c90 has already said he was mistaken in saying that, but here you are still on about it.
 
Flonkam
Can you please stop changing the subject of discussion to low-RPM operation in order to avoid admitting error? This particular subject in question is what happens when fans start from a stopped position, and the claim that the fans are not designed to stop.

Again, I didn't say what you quoted there. Here is what I actually said: "No, he stated that a fan stopping is out of PWM spec. Which is technically wrong, it's undefined"
And per the spec, it is undefined; I see no error I have made in saying that. You keep reading things into what people say that aren't actually said.
 




#138
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 20:14:30 (permalink)
@ somethingc00l
 
"First off, I didn't say any of those quotes in your post, not sure why I got attribution."
 
No quotes were attributed to you, or implied so, except the one with your name next to it, so I beg of you, just stop. I don't appreciate having to waste time pretending to explain these things to you.
 
The second quote shows that both you and ty_ger07 are making precisely the same assertion: That there is only a semantic difference between a stepper and a brushless DC motor. He said exactly the same thing you said. I inserted the quote specifically because it included the word 'semantics'. I did not attribute the quote to you. I obviously and correctly attributed the assertion to you.
 
The third and fourth quotes establish the point that I directly proceeded to make: That the point I responded to is whether the fans in question should ever stop and start while a computer is running, and what happens when they do--and not about whether they should run below a certain RPM.
 
"My argument would be DC and stepper motors are quite similar for the purposes of discussing what could be generating noise"
 
That makes no sense whatever. A stepper would never be used as a GPU fan. Ever. Steppers inherently generate far, far more noise than brushless DCs, and their torque-hold operating characteristics make any attempt to equate them a joke. So why would you use steppers "for the purpose of discussing this issue" instead of.....just using the actual motors in question? Talk about agendas for crying out loud, lol. This sheer nonsense radiates the fact that you are desperate in your effort to avoid a simple "Yeah, sorry...I misspoke" so we can all move on.
 
"But yes, it's absolutely semantics as a stepper motor IS a DC brushless motor"
 
Yes. Just the same as an LED-backlight LCD display is an LED display and a V6 coupe with a battery is an electric car. When I know that you are intelligent, how can I assume anything but dishonesty? One more try: If a stepper is a DC brushless motor, then why are they never used in fan applications? Be as precise as you wish.
 
"nor have I said anything about stepper motors in this thread. Not sure where that came from."
 
At the risk of sounding pedantic, you're wrong. The very reason that I asked you about steppers is because you did say something about stepper motors:
 
"That part is clear. ty_ger07 is definitely an expert, and from the little tox1c90 has posted it is clear he is as well (and also pretty clear English is not his native language so jumping on him for saying stepper motor is not productive, when his intent is clear)."
 
...you took it upon yourself to tell me that I am wrong--and bothersome--for correctly pointing out what you are still denying: that a stepper is a fundamentally different type of motor and has no relevance to this discussion. Do you realize the only reason we are still talking about steppers is that you are actually maintaining that they are for all intents and purposes GPU fan motors?
 
"Again, I didn't say what you quoted there"
 
I didn't quote you there. I explained the particular subject in question. Stopping fans. Starting fans. I did this in hopes that you would stop talking about low-RPM operation, because I did not make any assertions about low-RPM operation.
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/07 20:37:55
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ty_ger07
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/07 22:28:21 (permalink)
Regarding Type B and Type C PWM computer fans, it looks like my memory failed me or I read an older specification document. Oh well.

Still, it's the fans making a noise when they start from a standstill. I don't know how arguing will change that.

The construction of a stepper motor and the construction of a brushless motor are essentially the same. What is the point you are trying to make? Look at a simplified diagram of the two and tell me that they aren't drawn identically. The implementation and purpose is different, sure. But the fundamentals of how they operate is identical. More or less coils either surrounding a magnet or surrounded by a magnet and then the coils are sequentially fired as necessary. In fact, you could say that a stepper motor is a type or brushless motor. If you hacked it and controlled the coils directly, you could make a computer fan behave like a stepper motor and turn half a turn and hold that position. Or you could make it turn 3.5 turns and hold that position. Or you could make it turn backwards 2.5 turns. Or. Or... The holding torque and resolution would be poor, but the method of operation is the same. Who cares? Again, what's your point?

This discussion is getting long and tiresome. And pointless. They make noise.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/12/07 22:55:05

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#140
noon22c
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/08 00:44:14 (permalink)
Played HOI4 with the sound turned off and at around 55C heard the clicking noise again.
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4790K
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/08 10:05:33 (permalink)
Clicking wont disappear when changing power mode.
 
I wonder if there are any Cards out there wich dont make this Noise?


 
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danyulcohen
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/08 15:02:10 (permalink)
4790K
Clicking wont disappear when changing power mode.
 
I wonder if there are any Cards out there wich dont make this Noise?




Yes, this is something I would very much like to know. I wonder how long it takes for them to produce a new batch of custom EVGA fans and then transport them to the location in which the cards are made. It's also reasonable to wonder if EVGA would wait to use the new fans until they use all the old fans they have in stock.
post edited by danyulcohen - 2018/12/08 15:05:26
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ty_ger07
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/08 15:13:01 (permalink)
There is no incentive for EVGA to change the fans. In fact, there is a lot of incentive not to in order to avoid backlash.

If EVGA used different fans in the future which didn't make the same noise, it would be in a new/different product which "happened" to not make the same noise purely by "coincidence". Remember, EVGA has not admitted that this is a defect and has even told people that it is normal.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/12/08 15:15:31

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Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/08 17:09:44 (permalink)
ty_ger07
Regarding Type B and Type C PWM computer fans, it looks like my memory failed me or I read an older specification document. Oh well.

Perfectly human, perfectly understandable. And notice how I didn't mention it again--to you? That is because you did not insist that you didn't misspeak, while simultaneously insisting that I was wrong or ridiculous. In other words, there was no reason for me to say anything more about it to you.
 
ty_ger07
Still, it's the fans making a noise when they start from a standstill. I don't know how arguing will change that.

I don't think anyone believes that arguing will fix the problem? There are people here who want to discover exactly what the problem is, and that is what discussion is for. As far as arguing: As long as I am made to look "out of line" when I know I am right and have not mistreated anyone, and I am condescendingly reprimanded for daring to question "experts", I am going to respond in defense of myself. You can identify with that, right?
 
"What is the point you are trying to make?"
 
That I can't understand why anyone would bring stepper motors into this discussion except by accident. Which is exactly what happened.
 
"If you hacked it and controlled the coils directly, you could make a computer fan behave like a stepper motor and turn half a turn and hold that position."
 
And if the only difference was semantics, as somethingc00l insists, you wouldn't even have to do that, would you, because they would be exactly the same? And even after that, it still wouldn't be suitable for any stepper application.  Because it's not "just semantics" as somethingc00l insists.
 
But I'm wrong for pointing that out, apparently. And I'm also wrong for pointing out that I'm not wrong. What a bother Flonkam is!
 
I know for a fact you can use a PC fan as marine propeller--in a manner of speaking. But does that mean that it makes any sense to talk about PC fans when trying to figure out why a marine propeller is malfunctioning? Despite the obvious similarities, why would anyone keep insisting that a PC fan and a propeller are "basically the same thing" unless he had (as somethingc00l said) an agenda?
 
4790K
 
I wonder if there are any Cards out there wich dont make this Noise?

That is a good question, and something to make certain of. But I thought it was established that not all 20-Series fans/cards made this noise, at least so far? (Obviously there is no guarantee that a fan/card without this issue would not develop it in the future....unless it is known for a fact that the underlying cause does not exist.)
 
ty_ger07

There is no incentive for EVGA to change the fans. In fact, there is a lot of incentive not to in order to avoid backlash.

If EVGA used different fans in the future which didn't make the same noise, it would be in a new/different product which "happened" to not make the same noise purely by "coincidence". Remember, EVGA has not admitted that this is a defect and has even told people that it is normal.

I think that your speculations make sense. But wouldn't EVGA's policy of RMAing cards with this issue be a tacit admission that it is a defect? It seems that it would be hard for them to insist that it is normal when it is established that they consider it acceptable grounds for an RMA.
 
Though, that doesn't mean they couldn't go ahead and do just what you describe...
post edited by Flonkam - 2018/12/08 17:16:36
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/09 05:25:12 (permalink)
Will be very hard to find out whats going on without EVGA acknowledging and explaining this problem.
 
I wish they would just clarify and not let us in the dark. 
 
Im building Gaming PCs ... and so far have built 3 Systems with 2080 XCs (all had that clicking Noise, i did see some kind of loose cable but it didnt touch the fan in any situation!).
My Customers wont care about why and what is causing this problem they just want to have a quiet, premium System that works. Also setting them a custom fan curve to 20% is pointless since as soon they reinstall windows they have to do it on their own or will send me back the System to fix it. My Systems have to work 100% out of the box. 
 
I love to build the Systems with EVGA Parts, especially GPUs but I have to reconsider that for this Series if there is no explanation/Fix provided ASAP. im running out of time here pls EVGA step up and do something!
post edited by 4790K - 2018/12/09 05:36:07


 
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#146
Flonkam
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/09 10:46:34 (permalink)
4790K
Also setting them a custom fan curve to 20% is pointless since as soon they reinstall windows they have to do it on their own or will send me back the System to fix it.

 
Yes...what is your opinion on this? I was genuinely surprised the first time I changed my fan curve and discovered that I wasn't actually changing the GPU's fan curve--that I was only overriding it with an application that had to remain running.
 
I expected that I was using an application to remotely alter the card's settings. That is by no means impossible or difficult. Just as one example: My current mouse, a Logitech G700, allows me to create and alter profiles which are stored on the mouse itself. As an alternative, I can store them on my PC as well.
 
Is this what you are referring to? And if so, what is your opinion on the matter?
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/09 11:58:53 (permalink)
yes for a custom fan curve you will need an application running in background (afterburner,x1)
For me this is not a Problem since I got Afterburner most time active but for People who just want to have it working without "tuning" it is.


 
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danyulcohen
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/09 12:53:18 (permalink)
I started playing Forza Horizon 4 and unfortunately I have an issue with the clicking in this title. The GPU heats up to the point that the fans come on, but in between races or while using the map it cools down and the fans stop. Thus I end up with pretty frequent clicking while playing FH4.
 
Because of that I decided to setup a custom fan curve to use for this game and obviously any others that exhibit similar behavior. I leave Afterburner running 24x7 to monitor various things on my PC anyway. I normally have it set to a 5 second update interval to minimize the CPU usage required when polling the various sensors.
 
One thing I noticed while experimenting with setting a custom fan curve today is that if I set the lowest fan speed below 13% the fans will stop and start repeatedly at that value which causes the clicking sound to happen over and over again. I set Afterburner to 100ms update time to closely monitor the fans RPM for this little test.
 
At 10% through 12% the tachometer goes up to 590 RPM and then quickly drops down to zero before spinning up again and repeating the process over and over. Apparently the fans aren't capable of running at 10% constantly when they are being controlled by Afterburner.
 
At 13% the tachometer goes up to 590, then down to 280 before leveling out and staying at a consistent 390 RPM.
 
13% appears to be the lowest value you should set the fan to in order to avoid constant clicking at minimum fan speed. This is only an issue if you are using the 'stepped' fan curve.
 
If you use the 'smooth' fan curve this is only a problem IF the minimum is 10% AND the current temperature sets the fan value between 10%-12%. Basically if the fan is set anywhere from 10-12 percent you will get constant clicking at the fan starts and stops repeatedly.
 
This is on my 2070 XC Ultra for reference.
 
Does anybody know if there is a keyboard shortcut you can use/set for turning the custom fan curve off and on? That would be handy. I didn't see anything in the options.
post edited by danyulcohen - 2018/12/09 13:37:29
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danyulcohen
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Re: 2080 TI XC Ultra fan clicking noise 2018/12/09 12:59:00 (permalink)
I think the reason EVGA will accept an RMA request in regards to the fan issue is because an RMA is preferable to you returning the card to the retailer.
 
If they give you an RMA and you ship them the card and they send you a new in box replacement you are no longer able to return your card as the serial number would not match the one on file with the retailer. Assuming you decided to keep the RMA card and not your original card.
 
Obviously not every retailer keeps a record of the serial number. If they don't keep the serial number on file for your order they will still be able to determine that the serial number for the card you returned originated from EVGA, assuming you keep the RMA replacement.
 
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