bill1024

kaninja
They are openining more auto plants in Mexico so they can pay less and not worry about the Unions. It's about profit, not about creating meaningful employment where workers share in the prosperity.

Workers share in the prosperity every Friday, it is called a "Paycheck"
If it is not prosperous enough for you, go find a better job.

Um, no that is not sharing in prosperity.
 
It's an old concept.  Henry Ford understood it.  Now though sound economic principles has been replaced by profit formulas that are solely focused on efficiency and maximum profitability.  Overproduction, and heavy wealth concentration are very big problems that a free market needs to overcome in order to be successful, vibrant, and healthy.  

kaninja

bill1024

kaninja
They are openining more auto plants in Mexico so they can pay less and not worry about the Unions. It's about profit, not about creating meaningful employment where workers share in the prosperity.

Workers share in the prosperity every Friday, it is called a "Paycheck"
If it is not prosperous enough for you, go find a better job.

Um, no that is not sharing in prosperity.
 
It's an old concept.  Henry Ford understood it.  Now though sound economic principles has been replaced by profit formulas that are solely focused on efficiency and maximum profitability.  Overproduction, and heavy wealth concentration are very big problems that a free market needs to overcome in order to be successful, vibrant, and healthy.  

 
Rubbish

bill1024
Workers share in the prosperity every Friday, it is called a "Paycheck"
If it is not prosperous enough for you, go find a better job.

I disagree. It's compensation for a provided service, ultimately at an agreed rate. I know it's nit picky, but no company is so altruistic. The better the worker does, the more they contribute, the more they get paid and the more bonuses they make, as their service is more valuable to the company (or at least it should be). In that sense you're right, but in no way is the company making sure everything is divvied out evenly.
 
However, some companies do underpay, and are worth avoiding if it's not enough for you.
 

candle_86
If you rely on a pension to be able to retire your already doing it wrong, you should be taking your money every month and investing it into an IRA, and $52hr is obscene for any factory job, and honesty 29hr is obscene for a janitor, why not try to say Cap what you pay, a plant worker max say 30hr, and a janitor should never go over 10hr. PAy them what they are worth its unskilled labor.

That is quite obscene pay, indeed. I guess it's up to the company, and if they can afford to keep paying it. I don't imagine any worker making that kind of money is complaining so it's probably easier to hold onto workers (especially the good ones).
 
Their worth is kind of subjective, unskilled labor itself isn't the most valuable thing, but I'm sure veterans who work hard every day are worth the extra pay compared to people who scrape the bare minimum and aren't very productive. I would at least hope the former is the one making that kind of money.

can go both ways, but like someone said before, a slacker can be getting paid the same and be producing crumbing work as someone who does good work

kaninja

lolujdm
can go both ways, but like someone said before, a slacker can be getting paid the same and be producing crumbing work as someone who does good work

I suppose you can look at it both ways, you can have lazy people with poor performance getting paid the same as a very productive employee, or you can have everyone's wages kept low regardless of performance.
 
However if you look at the big picture, a well paid under-performing employee making a good wage is a bigger benefit to the economy as a whole than one that makes minimum wage and lives at or below the poverty line.  
 
I tend to just focus on myself and do the best that I can.  Since starting my consulting business I realize everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  One of the biggest weaknesses people have is selfishness.  Caring so much how much the next guy gets paid is a HUGE distraction to many people.  This creates resentment and jealousy.  I made a policy that everyone is made aware of.  Everyone makes the same period, based on length of service.  Everyone gets bonuses based on certain benchmarks as a team.  We all succeed together or we all fail together.  It is my philosophy that I want everyone to succeed.
 
There is a LOT of capacity in the system to pay people more.  All we need to do is look at the GDP/capita growth explosion since the 70's.  
 
One million people making 10%+ higher annual income is leaps and bounds more beneficial to the economy than 50 people who are already millionaires making a few more million each.
 
Corporations and business have a powerful lobby and do whatever they can to keep wages low.  I think it only fair that the workers should have the ability to have solidarity with each other as well.

So I should pay a person that can hang 900sq ft of sheet rock in a day the same as someone who can hang 1500sq ft in a day?
I don't think so.
How bout the person that run 500ft of pipe vs 350ft of pipe?
People who produce more should get paid more. Everyone is not equal in the work place. Some are better at their jobs than others.
They should be rewarded for their hard work and effort they put into their jobs.
 
As far as the money in the hands of a few is not a valid argument.
Anyone who has money put the money in a bank, mutual funds, corporate stocks, corporate and government bonds.
That money almost always goes back into circulation, unless it is under their mattress. Only that would be a bad thing
They are the job creators and supply the capitol business need to start, expand and grow.
Everyone can have a slice of the pie, since there is more than one pie and more than enough flour to make many more pies.
 
 
 
 
 

I have been in the NYC Carpenters union for 35 years (minus 4 years for the time spent in the USMC) and I am glad to be in the union.  Don't get me wrong, there are some less then good people in my union.  I have run crews sometimes up to 30 men on a jobsite and if I see some one not up to the tast I send them packing right away and replace them.  All companies and work places have some that are not up to par and should be weeded out.  I make a decent pay and have money go into an annuity, I also get a vacation check every 3 months whether I like it or not  My dues are worth every nickel I pay to have someone represent me. Jusy my 2 cents.

jeffro66
I am in a union and a officer it is important as far as bargaining for a contract that corporates try to really take advantage of workers and if a member gets in trouble the union get really help him keep his or her job I hate the political stuff,unions can be very helpful and worth the dues

 
Def agree.

RushXTC
I know this is an older topic, And I also didn'/t read the replyes that followed OP, But ever since I began working as a Carpenter in 2015, I'm never leaving union jobs, Ever.
 
I was going to mention the wages and vacation pay that the union allows me to earn, However I deleted it for the mere fact that it probably wouldn't be a good idea lol. Let's just say I wouldn't be making what I'm currently making if I wasn't a union member.
 
For $20 a month, I can take welding cert classes, Join any trade offered by the Carpenters and Joiners of America, The UBC really takes care of us!

bill1024

kaninja

bill1024

kaninja
They are openining more auto plants in Mexico so they can pay less and not worry about the Unions. It's about profit, not about creating meaningful employment where workers share in the prosperity.

Workers share in the prosperity every Friday, it is called a "Paycheck"
If it is not prosperous enough for you, go find a better job.

Um, no that is not sharing in prosperity.
 
It's an old concept.  Henry Ford understood it.  Now though sound economic principles has been replaced by profit formulas that are solely focused on efficiency and maximum profitability.  Overproduction, and heavy wealth concentration are very big problems that a free market needs to overcome in order to be successful, vibrant, and healthy.  

Rubbish

Kaninja is right on the money (so to speak) - that is not rubbish - that is exactly how businesses operate to remain competitive now. I'm not talking about a mom & pop store in the middle of nowhere, I'm talking about mid-size corporations and up. The entire purpose of a business is to generate money (unless it's a non-profit business), so as a CEO if you're not focused on efficiency and maximizing profitability, prepare to be looking for another job in the near future.
 
The divide between the wealthy and the middle class has been increasing for some years now, and the middle class is shrinking - this is well established fact, not fiction, so yes, wealth concentration is most definitely becoming an issue.
 
Saying all of that is "rubbish" is nothing short of obtuse.
 

The middle class is shrinking is true. Lets thin this over for a second.
They say poverty is down over the years. There are more people making over 100 grand a year now than ever before.
There are more millionaires now than ever before.
So where are the middle class going? They are going up to the upper middleclass and to the wealthy class.
They are not going down, the poverty class is shrinking. Unemployment levels are nearing record lows again 6% or so.
People are making more an hour than ever before.
There are tens of thousands of job openings in the trades, plumbers, HVAC, electrician auto mech.
Do we encourage our kids to go to trade school? No, go get your BFA degree.
Tradesmen make 25-80,000k a year these days. Some over 100,000k a year.
 
If Bill gates and all the other big dollar CEO all just made one dollar next year, how will that help you?
It will make you feel better is all. Where should that money go? The workers? The corporate bond holders? The stock holders?
Split it between them?
I say give it to the stock and bond holders since they are the ones who fund the company and they take the risk of losing it all.
 

bill1024
The middle class is shrinking is true. Lets thin this over for a second.
They say poverty is down over the years. There are more people making over 100 grand a year now than ever before.
There are more millionaires now than ever before.
So where are the middle class going? They are going up to the upper middleclass and to the wealthy class.
They are not going down, the poverty class is shrinking. Unemployment levels are nearing record lows again 6% or so.
People are making more an hour than ever before.
There are tens of thousands of job openings in the trades, plumbers, HVAC, electrician auto mech.
Do we encourage our kids to go to trade school? No, go get your BFA degree.
Tradesmen make 25-80,000k a year these days. Some over 100,000k a year.
 
If Bill gates and all the other big dollar CEO all just made one dollar next year, how will that help you?
It will make you feel better is all. Where should that money go? The workers? The corporate bond holders? The stock holders?
Split it between them?
I say give it to the stock and bond holders since they are the ones who fund the company and they take the risk of losing it all.

 
Poverty is actually worsening in the US...
 
More people making over 100,000 and more millionaires means absolutely nothing - nothing at all, because those are meaningless numbers. The cost of living is also far higher - it's all relative. Here's some facts that do mean something: average income has decreased or stayed flat over the last decade or more, while inflation / cost of living certainly has not. There is much less disposable income now than there was a decade ago for the average person. The exception is a very small minority who harvest (not earn) vast vast sums of money - so much so that, in some individual cases, it is more than the GDP of some small countries. When you include this small group of people, each one makes so much money that they actually skew the average for the hundreds of millions of average Americans.
 
The poverty class is definitely NOT shrinking, that just is not true.
 
As far as unemployment levels being at record lows, that is a joke - did you know that during the last couple of years the administration increased the 'unemployable' classification by 15%? That is a HUGE amount of people. They did that because 'unemployable' people are not included in the unemployment rates - so they did that in order to make it look like unemployment was decreasing in order to give confidence to the economy as a whole, and while they did give it some confidence, it is not without record low rates and other factors that have left the US in an incredibly precarious position with no safety net left to rely on. Also, that unemployment rate counts part-time workers equally to full-time workers. The fact is there are far more part-time workers now than there has been for a long time, and shifting tens of millions out of 'unemployed' classification is nothing short of intentional misrepresentation - but you won't see mainstream media reporting that, at least not under the previous administration.
 
Now I am aware there is a shortage of workers in HVAC and other similar trade jobs - mainly because many left that sector during the recession when the work dried up in many areas, and now the economy is doing better, there's a shortage of qualified tradespeople, therefore they can charge more for their services - supply and demand and the invisible hand at work. Had I know then what I know now, I likely would have gone for a trade job rather than university, but then again back then it was near impossible to get an apprenticeship without having someone in the family in the business.
 
If Bill Gates and all the other CEOs earning in excess of a few million a year decided to cut their salary to just $1m a year and instead offer higher compensation to their collectively tens of millions of employees, then hell yes it would make a huge difference to the entire economy! All that money would increase disposable income for millions of people, who would then spend it on buying more goods, which creates more demand, which creates more business and more jobs etc etc.. this is very very basic economics. That would make EVERYONE wealthier, not just a very very few elite super-rich...  
 
You seem to think it's an "all or nothing" type deal - that is not how it is - investing in your own people is just good business.
 
Why do you keep throwing all these different things out there that have nothing to do with what Kaninja said and you calling it rubbish?
 
Anyway I have to sleep - work in the morning.
 
 
 

 
http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html

I hear complaints that there are too many millionaires and the top make too much.
Then I get the numbers are meaningless, which is it?
 
Like I said, it does not matter people at the top are making more. They bank it.
The money is there for everyone who wants to get off their ass and go get it.
Start your own company and make millions. Not easy is it to run a large corporation is it? that is why they make more.
And it is not like there are that many CEOs making that much to begin with.
And it dose not matter, most jobs are in small businesses!  Big business does not employ the bulk of people in the country

 
Everyone is not equal in the workforce, sorry but it is the truth.
If I paint 5 rooms in an office building and you can paint three and get paid the same.
Why should I bust my butt working so hard? No people should not make the same just because they show up for work. Oh hell no
Not every kid gets a trophy. Win the game and get yourself a trophy.
 

XrayMan
 
http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html

OK so it has remained pretty static for a long time according to those stats - my bad. I guess poverty level isn't changing much beyond the couple of percentage points normal fluctuations, however it is true that average incomes have remained pretty much flat for years, while cost of living has not, so that certainly would decrease disposable income, just not enough to put people into poverty just yet.
 
 
 

Nereus

bill1024
He said he wants every one to make the same, that is what unions do, every one makes the same.
I say "you get paid as much as you produce" Simple, that is a free economy.

Ok lol then I agree with you. I didn't see that comment from him, sorry - I was commenting on these two:
 

They are openining more auto plants in Mexico so they can pay less and not worry about the Unions. It's about profit, not about creating meaningful employment where workers share in the prosperity.
 
...replaced by profit formulas that are solely focused on efficiency and maximum profitability.  Overproduction, and heavy wealth concentration are very big problems that a free market needs to overcome in order to be successful, vibrant, and healthy. 
 

I was wondering why you seemed to be arguing with points I agreed with lol.
 

The first part, hey people in Mexico need jobs too, more jobs there they will stay there and not sneak into the country.
They are welcome to come here, but knock on the door, let us know who you are and why you want to come here.
Sign in and get a job!!!!
Workers in Mexico make more money they buy more American made cars and boats and planes. See how that works? LOL
 
 
I do not agree with the 2nd part. There is no wealth concentrated at the top is my point.
The money is not under their beds, they are not hording the money. The money is in the bank, it is in the bond market so the school can barrow money for buses, the workers that make the buses feed their family.
The money is in the stock market, the business issues stocks, people buy them. the money goes to expand the business
They buy new presses and new tools, new trucks, hire new people.
The money goes right back into the economy.
Rich people buy big cars and boats and planes. People make cars, boats and planes. they fee their family too.
It is a myth that the rich are hurting the economy because that make a lot of money.
It is socialism and the idea being rich is bad, and corporations are bad. They are not.
Rich people are the job creators, they keep many people working even in bad times.
People are not leaving the US to go to Cuba. Socialism is whats bad