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Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters)

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jinihammerer
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 04:01:18 (permalink)
texinga
Punchy
Here's a few random thoughts:
  • if texinga loses his barrel when it's cold, then we might all see a blue moon



Oh bro...if you only knew how flimsy those straps really are and at my age I probably wouldn't even notice that my moon was showing. 
 
Thanks for making me laugh this evening, it has been a long day...


If your moon is showing in this cold... its no wonder its blue!


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planetclown
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 06:30:08 (permalink)
It's sad when you take a step back and read this thread.  
 
I still do believe FAH has some of the most potential out of all the DC projects out there.  But the repeated disrespect of many of their biggest and longest-running donors' time, money and conviction by both project management and associated forums is definitely disheartening to say the least.  While crunching with BOINC provides a way to redirect resources and continue the fight, I hope FAH can still turn things around for the sake of the science and betterment of humanity.

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bcavnaugh
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 07:00:56 (permalink)
planetclown
It's sad when you take a step back and read this thread.  
 
I still do believe FAH has some of the most potential out of all the DC projects out there.  But the repeated disrespect of many of their biggest and longest-running donors' time, money and conviction by both project management and associated forums is definitely disheartening to say the least.  While crunching with BOINC provides a way to redirect resources and continue the fight, I hope FAH can still turn things around for the sake of the science and betterment of humanity.


While I will become a Late Fall Winter Early Spring Folder and Cruncher this year I will still stay the course on both.
I will keep my 4P Folding and 2P Crunching year around and maybe One GPU Rig.
Not sure what my 4P will do once BigAdv is turned off at the end of the year. SMP or WCG
I plan (Hope) to retire this year and paying $1000.00 a month in the Summer will no longer be in a budget that I can afford.
Winter is between $450 and $500 but my gas is low due to my new heaters that are running.
I still hope to see a cure for MS in my lifetime.
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2014/01/30 18:21:31

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texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 07:17:45 (permalink)
That "Why We Fold" thread was well before we had a Crunching Team at EVGA.  It could very well be titled today, "Why We Help Humanity in DC" or something like that.  Those posts in that thread are still our reasons for being here no matter what form of DC you choose to engage.
 
For those of you who have not given up on Folding, now is the time to be communicating with Dr. Pande (Vijay as most know him).  There are things that can be done to help the issues we have seen with the FAH project.  Dr. Pande's ears are open and he is looking for ideas and suggestion. 
 
Where they have failed in the past is to actively seek, hear and engage opinion from donors (directly themselves).  Leaving it to the Mods and other spokespeople over at the FF has not worked and has actually made that situation worse.  The Mods at the FF need to just be Mods and not be put (or self inserted) into the role of attempting to represent PG.  This is an area that I'm strongly suggesting to Vijay that needs to change.  He also has some of his own ideas about how to engage donors in new ways. 
 
The man is willing to listen and from what I can tell wants to improve upon the comm between his group and donors.  Email him and let him know what you think would help.  I'm not saying that things will change...that is ultimately up to Vijay.  Just saying that he is there, will respond to you and is wanting to understand how things can be improved with his donor base.



Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 07:42:23 (permalink)
My problem with this Tex is that this 'problem' as you know has existed for years and nothing has been done about it.
 
I suspect that it's a concern now because things are not looking so rosy for VJ and his band of mad scientists.  It's that 'tipping point' that is such a popular way to describe cause and effect that we have now reached.  There is undoubtedly some concern but frankly I don't think enough to warrant action at this point.  Perhaps if the FLOPS begin to suddenly decrease and they have no other avenue or explanation for the decreasing participation to place blame then they might take action.
 
For now it's good they are listening but I wonder why it took so long?  Surely this ruckus hasn't been the first if we comb the FF looking for all those links others have pointed to lately.
 
Why now?  Fear.
 
It's falling apart and they know it.  Word is getting out.  The two top teams are beyond upset and hit the road to other projects.
 
Tear has ceased all development of FAH improvement projects as a result of this.  Others as you know have shut down and moved to BOINC.
 
The only way this mess will be fixed is if the issues are addressed and the 'old crew school' die off and are forgotten and new folding blood comes in.  About two generations by my quick calculations. 
 
This may be a matter of too little too late.  Not by we donors but by the recipients of our donation.
 
They bite the hand that feeds them and in doing so may soon face starvation unless they learn to hunt again.


 
TheWolf
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 07:58:15 (permalink)
I'd say pretty much fear Viper, people can only be burned so many time before they setup and take notice.
Before now many took PG at there word there would be changes and simmered down and went back to folding.
Many have now lost that trust in anything they say at this point and are ready to take action, like moving to other DC projects.
I wouldn't be surprised if no one believes anything they say any more and never come back.

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Opolis
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 08:04:17 (permalink)
Interesting tidbit:
I received a follow up to the folding@home survey sent out by the research student from England a while back.  She had further questions for people that fit in the category of hardware enthusiasts and overclockers.  After sending my responses she was especially interested in the area of communication with Pande Group and replied that many donors expressed my same concerns (just like all of us in this thread).  PG says "it's not a problem", yet PhD students are researching why we donate and have taken notice to the issue of "communication" (or lack thereof).

texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 08:06:32 (permalink)
Viper,
 
I can't crawl into Vijay's head and know what his awareness level has been over time.  Had I been communicating with him in the way that I'm doing now, and nothing had happened, I would feel very differently.  So, my mindset (maybe incorrectly) has been this.  I haven't been speaking with him, have not told him how I feel as a donor and have no prior ground to compare to.  Frankly, I'm guessing that because his direct contact with donors has been so limited that he has not been as close to these things as he should have been.  Couple that with donors complaining in their own Forums and over at FF, PG's actions/inactions on the Bigadv program, with nothing getting resolved and donors have been left with the feeling that nobody cares.  I get that and have felt that way too.
 
My conversations with Vijay over the past couple days have been very frank and to the point.  I'm not beating up on him because that is counterproductive to helping him understand and not necessary with a person like him anyway.  But I am talking to him about the losses we are seeing in the top two world Folding teams.  I am talking to him about how I think the Bigadv changes should/could have been handled.  Also talking to him about the FF and why I think that is the wrong way for Folders to get answers to the big important things.  I'm sharing why a "Folding enthusiast" is a different type of donor in his pool and why those people have a significant impact to his success (not the hardware, but the effect they can have good/bad on other Folders).
 
I really don't have the "rose colored glasses" on and if this turns out to be a wasted effort, I haven't lost anything anyway and am beating the hell out of my rigs for DC regardless.  Hope this helps explain a bit more where my head is at with this stuff.



Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 08:12:11 (permalink)
Just so you know Tex... I'm not faulting your effort.  I'm faulting the lack of effort on PG's behalf over the years and pondering why now the interest.
 
Didn't seem like they much cared to listen and according to Opolis post there is much agreement between us and those researching us that communications have been an issue.
 
 


 
texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 08:14:00 (permalink)
Opolis
Interesting tidbit:
I received a follow up to the folding@home survey sent out by the research student from England a while back.  She had further questions for people that fit in the category of hardware enthusiasts and overclockers.  After sending my responses she was especially interested in the area of communication with Pande Group and replied that many donors expressed my same concerns (just like all of us in this thread).  PG says "it's not a problem", yet PhD students are researching why we donate and have taken notice to the issue of "communication" (or lack thereof).



This is a good example of why I am encouraging people to open up and speak (now) to those in charge about what could be done differently.  If we choose to do nothing (and that is certainly a valid choice given the history), Jenny's excellent artwork just may be what we have left of the Folding program.  I hope that nobody thinks I have my fingers on their back...that is not my intent because I understand all the frustrations and have felt them too.



texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 08:15:18 (permalink)
Viper97
Just so you know Tex... I'm not faulting your effort.  I'm faulting the lack of effort on PG's behalf over the years and pondering why now the interest.
 
Didn't seem like they much cared to listen and according to Opolis post there is much agreement between us and those researching us that communications have been an issue.



I do know that bro and knew where you are coming from.



mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 10:36:15 (permalink)
Well, just to let you know, I'm not trying to spam forums...just trying to see what others are thinking across a broad spectrum. AMDZONE does not get a great deal of traffic. ;)
I posted over at the horde my thoughts on possible reforms because I was interested in what Grandpa_01 was hearing.
 
http://hardforum.com/show...7104&postcount=373
 
Of course, as discussed here, the structure of the FF and its moderation wasn't a secret...just uneven in its application.
 
So, one is left wondering, since it was always designed, conceived, and administered as a PR platform rather than as a open forum...do we have any chance of changing VJ mind?
I kind of doubt it. But my mind needs to grind through the obvious solutions...just the way it rolls. ;)
 
Why am I even trying to help in a constructive way after being banned?
just bat-s)(* crazy I guess. ;)
post edited by mdk7777777 - 2014/01/30 10:46:20
Xavier Zepherious
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 10:43:55 (permalink)
the main problem is VJ
 
the reason too many jobs - how can you be
 
1. Mentor for graduate students helping them and guiding them in their studies (that means knowing their research too)
2. Professor for undergraduates - teach,mark papers,tutorials
3. Has own research to do - other than FAH
4. FAH research
5. Software development team
6. Oversee FAH and other FAH projects
7.Oversee FF forums
8 Donor advisory board
9.Head of biology department (or a segment of it)
10, Stanford Boards (Funding, politics,development boards,fundraising)
11. Other Off campus developments or businesses (that he or his department are co-partners in)
12 travel and do seminars to other researchers on your work
13. not to mention he has infighting/powerplays from other researchers vying for funding(even in his own department).. even for control of the department
14 he has some life outside stanford - like wife ,kids and some free time (I think)
 
so tell me where does he find time to do it all?
It's a big enterprise to run - not a research project (might have been at inception but not anymore)
 
Stanford has to step in and put a admin person in charge to take some pressure and workload off him
 
just imagine what stanford would feel if Bill gates or some other bigwig withdraw 1Billion in funding because of mistreatment of them (donors) or 10M
stanford board of directors would flip and VJ be lucky to have a job left, and if he did there would be big changes how it was run - like take direct oversight from VJ - and put in the hands of admin ( basically appoint a CEO or hire one)
 
Basically the Stanford Board or directors need to "bring the law down" and sit the players in a room and tell them the games have to stop.
if you want to do research..then do research and leave administration of the program to an admin person
stop the infighting and powerplaying between some of the head researchers - you are now hurting us financially -
if it doesn't there is a solution one or two of you go (pink slip)
 
You want to smooze donors(and money - donations of any kind) to your cause - not scare them or make them run away from your institute because of the way they were treated
 
that's what should happen - then stanford could focus on expanding it to other DC projects and developing one software development team that caters to all science department that want to take use of distributed computing.
 
It's a business - it reduces University energy cost and improves profitability. 
you can also do research for phamacuticals or other businesses (scientific) and collect funding,donation or sell excess computing power for $$
 
 


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Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 10:50:22 (permalink)
The answer is no... in my mind he is a consummate politician and plays both ends well.  I frankly am not going to count on him seeing the light now... or ever.  Not unless the whole of FAH starts to crumble beneath him.  That we can help with the crumbling part that is.
 
Seems to me the only way to actually change things is by not changing them at all.  In otherwords just move on from this nightmare to other projects.


 
mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 10:56:22 (permalink)
X Z, What you just described I reduced down to :
 
"But as you also know, I am nothing if not direct.
I advised that his continued behind the scenes control gave the appearance to Folding at Home of suffering from Founder's syndrome."
 
He did not appear to be offended, but only mentioned that he did not have the personnel to whom he could delegate.
I agree that the foundation needs professional administration. How much of this can be attributed to choice on the part of VJ, and how much is the structure and choice of the University; I really can't say.
 
EDIT: Viper97
 
Where I may well end up. But like Text...I am somehow compelled to try. ;)
post edited by mdk7777777 - 2014/01/30 11:00:41
Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 12:00:40 (permalink)
mdk7777777
EDIT: Viper97
 
Where I may well end up. But like Text...I am somehow compelled to try. ;)


I call that masochistic tendencies....


 
texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 14:48:07 (permalink)
Viper97
mdk7777777
EDIT: Viper97
 
Where I may well end up. But like Text...I am somehow compelled to try. ;)

I call that masochistic tendencies....



At my age, I do that just to see what happens...and to check to see if I'm still kickin'



mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/30 15:22:33 (permalink)
???
 
Now I'm getting paranoid...someone have a camera rigged in my bedroom?
 
???
Grandpa_01
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 11:45:26 (permalink)
Punchy
 
bigadv was overvalued from the start (which is really the reason PG got into this mess in the first place)

 
 
The points value according to VJ is correct as far as science value is concerned so that is incorrect, also BA is not ending it is going to continue on supercomputers. What caused the problem was not the points value it was the lack of a clear description of what was needed to do the work as expected by PG and miss management of deadlines. There were not enough of the class of equipment needed to do the work and too much of the class they needed in smp doing bigadv. But the expectations were never clearly stated from the beginning.
 
That was PG's fault though for not setting the program up right in the first place, not the donors fault, they put the carrot in the wrong place. Vijay decided to end it because of the headaches created by the BA program in the donor world and it could be run faster on supercomputers, not because of the points being wrong. That and BA is a small part of folding vs smp which is huge in comparison.
 
He is still going to have the problem of getting people to run SMP vs GPU especially since most feel smp is dyeing, which I do not know the answer to. But getting people to run them is PG's problem which is probably going to be an artificially inflated points system until they get them done if ever.
 
The points system is not there biggest problem though it actually works if used correctly, which we all know throughout the history of folding at Home there has been a PR problem which has been generated from the FF and attitudes towards donors there, How many people have left folding because of treatment there. Where did the donors of EVGA Boinc team come from and why how many former folders are there in boinc and why.
 
There will always be people to replace those who leave it is just a matter of time, because Fah is a good program with lots of potential, I believe Fah could be two to three times what it is today if they had better PR and donor retention, but as long as they maintain the current attitude towards donor's that is going to be very slow to materialize if ever. It will take an attitude change on PG's part and PG's representatives for something like this to happen otherwise it will always be just a mediocre program that gets passed by, by other programs. 
post edited by Grandpa_01 - 2014/01/31 11:50:20
bcavnaugh
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 11:53:24 (permalink)
Grandpa_01 I like what you have to say about FAH;
BUT I see more thanking and more fun and more than ONE Single Project as what FAH has to offer today for GPU and CPU.
BOINC also seems to not have so much Drama Between Forums.
And Last;
Challenges are Fun under BOINC and under FAH are in conflict and confusing to say the least.
So FAH has a LONG ways to go to fix themselves.
 
Crunching & Folding On
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2014/01/31 12:11:29

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cokeman54
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 12:19:10 (permalink)
If they can get SMP to run on Tablets and Phones, then they might have a chance. Grandpa_01 always nice to hear what you have to say and yes I am one of those that went to crunching from FAH. Will use one 4P for the bucks then everything back to crunching.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 12:50:46 (permalink)
I've got an old abacus I can donate to FAH. 


 
texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 12:58:31 (permalink)
...or maybe this book as a gift for Vijay. 
 




texinga
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 13:05:45 (permalink)
On a more serious note and one of recognition for this team.  I am very proud of the people here that have participated in this thread.  Here we are at 25 pages and no Moderator has needed to step-in, nobody's needed to be censored, etc.  It has just been civil members able to talk about an important change and a great Forum atmosphere that allows us the freedom to think out-loud.  That's what works in a Forum (great Mods and great members together). 



Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 13:08:44 (permalink)
Oh stop it... you got everyone blushing!


 
mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 18:18:45 (permalink)
so, speaking of exercising your masochistic tendencies...
 
I responded to a PM from sort of a geek today. She claimed that we were twisting her word and not honoring private communication.
 
Now these are two opposites...right? bill1024 posted the entire message she sent...how can that be taken out of context or twisted?
 
I have also quoted her entire messages in my discussions.  When you send a one sentence explanation for a board warning and banning, is there a presumption that this is a private communication?
When I subsequently question that single sentence...Is there really any way I can misrepresent it or twist it?
 
Well, giving her the benefit of the doubt, I wrote a detailed explanation of why I found her censoring of my posts were unwarranted and the board warnings unjustified.
 
Her response was(and I kid you not, you can't make this stuff up) that she would not reconsider, but if interested, she would be willing look up the warnings and repeat them for me!
 
Wow, the depth of reflection, the willingness to go the extra mile in the service of justice and customer appreciation was more than I could have possibly imagined.
 
No, she would not actually defend her rationale, nor elaborate, nor make any attempt to review.
 
But, oh that wonderful but, ...but,... she was willing to repeat! she was willing to say the exact same sentence ...again!
 
Oh the joy, the rapture which was mine.
 
 
PS ...sort of a geek, if you feel my characterization of our discussion is off, you have my complete permission to publish it in its entirety as you see fit.
Viper97
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 18:23:37 (permalink)
Eh... FF is a dead end... only those remnants of believers still visit.  Only those who stare at the mirror and reflect upon the words they are given to recite believe.
 
Or, to put it bluntly sort of a geek is a self centered, egotistical person whose delusions of power are only bringing FF and as a result FAH down. 
 
Again this person has done more to damage Folding than any one dissenter could do in years.
 
And all this with a delete key.  Amusing.
 
Sometimes the enemy within is more capable of bringing change than the enemy without.
 
Nice job sort of a geek.... nice job.
 
 


 
mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 19:07:23 (permalink)
well here is the irony.
After her last condescending and dismissive PM:
 
I challenged her in all seriousness, in a way I actually apply on a regular basis to check if it is just me, am I reading between lines, or is is obvious to anyone:
 
"But do me a favor,
I do this fairly often:
Read the message you just sent to me to an associate (someone who is not intimately familiar with your writing style)

Say "I just got this, what do you think?"

let me know the response.
 
Needless to say, she didn't see any reason to edit herself. :)
 
 
post edited by mdk7777777 - 2014/01/31 19:08:41
mdk7777777
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/01/31 19:57:58 (permalink)
well in the interest of full disclosure, sort of a geek wants everyone to know that I am not completely banned. (I don't know what draconian measure that would entail, blocking my IP address from seeing the site?) rather I am only required to have my posts reviewed...of course none of my posts have been able to pass that review to date....so the difference is lost on me. ;)
 
But it seemed to be important to her, so in fairness I thought I'd pass it along.
david12857
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Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2014/02/01 01:27:36 (permalink)
texingaOn a more serious note and one of recognition for this team.  I am very proud of the people here that have participated in this thread.  Here we are at 25 pages and no Moderator has needed to step-in, nobody's needed to be censored, etc.  It has just been civil members able to talk about an important change and a great Forum atmosphere that allows us the freedom to think out-loud.  That's what works in a Forum (great Mods and great members together). 

 

This is true for all team forum sites for the most part. You would be hard-pressed to find a team that has nice things to say about ff. I find this particularly amusing. 
 

 
 
It should be a warning and say the following: A very active forum with irrational moderators, the Folding@home Support Forum is the most hostile place to find trolls and censorship you don't find anywhere else.

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