Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/05 09:21:34
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jankerson
Intoxicus
Hence why the default rule of thumb, especially for new builders, should be one cable per GPU power connection.
There's no proven technical benefit to using a daisy chain cable. If anything there are too many possible detriments to using one.
There aren't any technical benefits of using of using a daisy chained cable period.
EVERYTHING would, or should tell people NOT to use them unless they have no other choice.
Exactly the point of this thread. Even if they are fine(I still don't think they are at all) there is no benefit. And it's likely more beneficial to use 2 separate cables. Being that at a consumer level we can't easily know how far in or out of spec any PSU manufacturer is it seems safest to avoid them and to only use one connection per GPU power cable at all times unless there is not a better option. And if there is not a better option that should be a temporary thing until you do get separate cables. I can't get past this thought: If one cable can do the job of two, the why even bother using two cables in the first place? Which leads to maybe one cable can NOT do the job of two and we should not expect it to. If one cable can do the job of two then why does Nvidia say hard nope on on daisy chains and we have examples of daisy chains frying those FE cards? So far no one that is an electrical engineer or equivalent has answered these questions in context using data and references to back their claims. dmisiur
Those split cables are for low power GPU. I always preferred 1 to 1 myself.
That's what I've come to think. They were meant for the 2 x 6 pin days and people haven't rethought it out for 2000 and 3000 series that draw a lot more power.
post edited by Intoxicus - 2020/12/05 09:25:09
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Cool GTX
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/05 09:32:30
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/05 10:28:13
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I disagree with this thread being moved and firmly believe it was fine where it was. The question at hand is "Is it safe to use daisy chain GPU power cables on 3000 series?" The reason this thread exists is because of seeing reports of magic smoke and dead 3000 series GPUs without magic smoke that are using daisy chains. I am concerned that using a daisy chain could be causing power issues that cause damage to 3000 series cards. I've asked some people reporting smokeless dead GPUs in various forums and consistently seeing daisy chains being used before the GPU death. It is very relevant to 3000 series GPUs. It's also about EVGA saying it's "acceptable" to use daisy chain cables on EVGA GPUs even though it's really going to depend on how well the PSU manufacturer did or did not follow spec. As with my example on my *EVGA* 2070 and *EVGA* Supernova G3 Gold 1000W PSU I had instability issues using a daisy chain power cable that supposedly should not happen. So it's kinda about more than EVGA products. It's in part about is EVGA unintentionally giving out bad advice because no one though to rethink advice that was only partly valid for 1000 series. I would counter that it involves EVGA Hardware and the main focus is are daisy chains safe for 3000 series and therefore was fine where it was and moving it serves no purpose or benefit.
post edited by Intoxicus - 2020/12/05 10:38:11
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Cool GTX
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/05 21:09:45
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Intoxicus
I disagree with this thread being moved and firmly believe it was fine where it was.
The question at hand is "Is it safe to use daisy chain GPU power cables on 3000 series?"
The reason this thread exists is because of seeing reports of magic smoke and dead 3000 series GPUs without magic smoke that are using daisy chains.
I am concerned that using a daisy chain could be causing power issues that cause damage to 3000 series cards.
I've asked some people reporting smokeless dead GPUs in various forums and consistently seeing daisy chains being used before the GPU death.
It is very relevant to 3000 series GPUs.
It's also about EVGA saying it's "acceptable" to use daisy chain cables on EVGA GPUs even though it's really going to depend on how well the PSU manufacturer did or did not follow spec.
As with my example on my *EVGA* 2070 and *EVGA* Supernova G3 Gold 1000W PSU I had instability issues using a daisy chain power cable that supposedly should not happen.
So it's kinda about more than EVGA products. It's in part about is EVGA unintentionally giving out bad advice because no one though to rethink advice that was only partly valid for 1000 series.
I would counter that it involves EVGA Hardware and the main focus is are daisy chains safe for 3000 series and therefore was fine where it was and moving it serves no purpose or benefit.
Best to check with the PSU Mfg & confirm what they recommend with their product being connected to high watt GPU --> (separate cables) Best practice is to use Separate Cable for each 6/8 -pin connector on the GPU to connect to PSU ... been that way for years, many post on the subject throughout the forums  Home » All Forums » [EVGA Graphics Cards] » EVGA GeForce RTX 30 Series ---> Is Only for EVGA RTX 30 products
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kelkel1
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/06 08:35:29
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/18 08:51:57
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Cool GTX
Intoxicus
I disagree with this thread being moved and firmly believe it was fine where it was.
The question at hand is "Is it safe to use daisy chain GPU power cables on 3000 series?"
The reason this thread exists is because of seeing reports of magic smoke and dead 3000 series GPUs without magic smoke that are using daisy chains.
I am concerned that using a daisy chain could be causing power issues that cause damage to 3000 series cards.
I've asked some people reporting smokeless dead GPUs in various forums and consistently seeing daisy chains being used before the GPU death.
It is very relevant to 3000 series GPUs.
It's also about EVGA saying it's "acceptable" to use daisy chain cables on EVGA GPUs even though it's really going to depend on how well the PSU manufacturer did or did not follow spec.
As with my example on my *EVGA* 2070 and *EVGA* Supernova G3 Gold 1000W PSU I had instability issues using a daisy chain power cable that supposedly should not happen.
So it's kinda about more than EVGA products. It's in part about is EVGA unintentionally giving out bad advice because no one though to rethink advice that was only partly valid for 1000 series.
I would counter that it involves EVGA Hardware and the main focus is are daisy chains safe for 3000 series and therefore was fine where it was and moving it serves no purpose or benefit.
Best to check with the PSU Mfg & confirm what they recommend with their product being connected to high watt GPU --> (separate cables)
Best practice is to use Separate Cable for each 6/8 -pin connector on the GPU to connect to PSU ... been that way for years, many post on the subject throughout the forums
Home » All Forums » [EVGA Graphics Cards] » EVGA GeForce RTX 30 Series ---> Is Only for EVGA RTX 30 products
Then why is EVGA Jacob telling people it's fine and he's using a daisy chain in his own setup he posted on Twitter? Also people are using a Seasonic infographic like it applies to any and all PSUs. It may be advisable to put a firm PSA out there to make it 100% clear what is the best practice.
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/18 08:53:54
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kelkel1
Interestingly, the 12 pin Micro-Fit is rated for 5.5A per contact using 18AWG conductors, or 66W @12V, times six contacts = 396W.
You have to look at the specs for the pins, that's the housing for the pins. Also you have to looks at what kind of pinout the Nvidia 12 pin is using to know what their 12 pin connector can actually handle.
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kelkel1
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/18 11:36:33
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Intoxicus
kelkel1
Interestingly, the 12 pin Micro-Fit is rated for 5.5A per contact using 18AWG conductors, or 66W @12V, times six contacts = 396W.
You have to look at the specs for the pins, that's the housing for the pins.
Also you have to looks at what kind of pinout the Nvidia 12 pin is using to know what their 12 pin connector can actually handle.
You mean the specs for the contacts I provided a link to? It is using 6 @ +12V, 6 @ Ground.
post edited by kelkel1 - 2020/12/18 11:43:47
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/27 09:39:44
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kelkel1
Intoxicus
kelkel1
Interestingly, the 12 pin Micro-Fit is rated for 5.5A per contact using 18AWG conductors, or 66W @12V, times six contacts = 396W.
You have to look at the specs for the pins, that's the housing for the pins.
Also you have to looks at what kind of pinout the Nvidia 12 pin is using to know what their 12 pin connector can actually handle.
You mean the specs for the contacts I provided a link to?
It is using 6 @ +12V, 6 @ Ground.
Those are the wrong specs dude. It's Molex Mini Fit JR 5556.
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/05 18:35:47
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ilkali
Intoxicus
The connectors are Molex Mini Fit Jr 5556. They are rated at 13a @ 12v giving us 156W (not 150W, lol.)
Even if a cable can support more than 156W the connector will bottleneck that.
I believe you're wrong here. This specification is 13A per circuit, not whole connector. 13A is the max limit, 11A is more realistic as I think it is the HCS standars, which gives 12*3*11 = 396 W of power per connector safely.
This number is the molex specification and it should be obeyed as going over that is dangerous. 150W limit of the PCIe specification is a more arbitrary number to ensure a wide array of compatibility. Anyway, with the FE cards, nvidia is bypassing the PCIe specification but they still have to abide by molex standards.
Also main reason that the 3080 and 3090's shouldnt be daisy chained is not their sustained power consumption but their power spikes. It's been shown that 3080s can have momentary power spikes of 489 Watts while 3090's can reach as high as 573 Watt, which is well above the molex specifications and is dangerous to daisy chain. But for a 3060 TI, which is just pulling 200 watts normally while reaching 340-350 momentary peaks, it's not the end of the world to use a daisy chained cable as you're still within the specs.
I've already said it's per pin previously and didn't realize I need to repeat that everytime....
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RickJamesBish
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/06 03:29:31
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You have an EVGA Rep saying its ok to split in some threads. You have another completely condemning it. You have yet another, who is obviously looking at the fact their own power supplies include split VGA power, saying its ok to split if the power supply includes a splitter. You also have the Power Meter where you select your power supply recommending lower rated power supplies than the card specs say, even though you have selected that specific card, and the power supply it recommends would require a splitter. So if splitting is a no no.. why do EVGA power supplies have split VGA power ? They want to tell you its bad but provide you the means to do it. This is why you EVGA reps are saying different things. The fact that they include splitters backs them into corner. I for one have a second PC that has been running an EVGA card of one model or another and EVGA power supply since 2010 or before. It has been daisy chained this entire time and gets used daily for hours of gaming.
post edited by rz22g - 2021/01/06 03:35:17
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Cool GTX
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/06 04:20:48
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rz22g
You have an EVGA Rep saying its ok to split in some threads. You have another completely condemning it. You have yet another, who is obviously looking at the fact their own power supplies include split VGA power, saying its ok to split if the power supply includes a splitter. You also have the Power Meter where you select your power supply recommending lower rated power supplies than the card specs say, even though you have selected that specific card, and the power supply it recommends would require a splitter.
So if splitting is a no no.. why do EVGA power supplies have split VGA power ? They want to tell you its bad but provide you the means to do it. This is why you EVGA reps are saying different things. The fact that they include splitters backs them into corner.
I for one have a second PC that has been running an EVGA card of one model or another and EVGA power supply since 2010 or before. It has been daisy chained this entire time and gets used daily for hours of gaming.
EVGA Reps ? Who ? Volunteer Moderators on the EVGA Forums are also enthusiasts Can & Should might be something to consider Back with either 10 or 20 series (there was a published study) --> High wattage GPUs have been demonstrated to perform more Stable .. especially when OC with separate cables - "Best Practice" - period. Your spreading the load over more wires & connections Can a card with "3 separate 8-pin sockets" -OR- "2 separate 8-pin & one additional 6-pin socket" Work with the 3rd socket being daisy chained ?
EVGA_JacobF - has said yes - for the 30 series cards .. daisy chain to the 3rd socket is OK .. he should know EVGA's product Best source for your hardware is your PSU Mfg ... they know the "weak point" of their hardware As all hardware tolerances can stack & cause issues ... poor connections = problems My GPUs run OC 24/7 & yes I use separate PCIe cables ... You can do what you want ... if it works well for you then great
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ty_ger07
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/06 10:19:33
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Toieo
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/10 19:56:06
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It to hijack but since we’re on the topic of power cables, what’s with all the horror stories about mix and matching cables? ie using EVGA supplied cables on a Seasonic PSU (not saying these are an issue, only illustration).
It makes me wonder about cable mod’s and do they factor your specific PSU and GPU? Even the same brand power supply can be wired differently (or so I’ve read).
Makes me nervous cause blowing up parts is not something I want to afford same as using split power cables
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ZekeSulastin
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 10:15:28
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I think we need more threads on separate vs daisy chain; we do not have enough representation across every subforum 🤔 @Toieo: that all is correct - the horror stories come because while the motherboard/gpu/etc end of the cable is standardised the PSU end is not, and different lines of PSU even from the same OEM or brand can use different PSU-side pinouts (for example, here's Corsair's cable compatibility chart). When you go to CableMod or similar resellers, they will ask for the make and model of your PSU so that they use the correct PSU side pinout. PSU cable extensions are universal, as they just connect the standardised pinout end of the PSU's cable to the standardised pinout receptacle on your hardware. You are adding extra electrical connections to the cable, though, which can cause issues if one of the added connectors is flaky.
post edited by ZekeSulastin - 2021/01/11 10:18:54
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castrator86
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 11:58:39
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Toieo
It to hijack but since we’re on the topic of power cables, what’s with all the horror stories about mix and matching cables? ie using EVGA supplied cables on a Seasonic PSU (not saying these are an issue, only illustration).
It makes me wonder about cable mod’s and do they factor your specific PSU and GPU? Even the same brand power supply can be wired differently (or so I’ve read).
Makes me nervous cause blowing up parts is not something I want to afford same as using split power cables
Basically; think about how much the integrity of the cable matters to the component that's running. Motherboard, CPU, and GPU cables should never be "split" off as these are the highest and most important power draws in the system. The more you add on points of failure (or low quality cables), the more likely it is to screw up. Now getting into the load issues that come with daisy chains is different. There are some arguments to be made about single rail/split rail systems that can handle those loads, etc. but most people don't read those parts of the spec sheet/user manual. Do you really want 450W of power that your GPU is trying to suck down coming from a single cable that's split to three connectors? Not really; that's gonna burn right through them with how many amps are trying to get to the card. Therefore, it's always safest and best practice to go with 1-cable per power connector. Are some PSUs fine and can get away with a daisy chain situation, yes. Do you want to take that risk and find out? Not really.
 
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ty_ger07
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 12:04:31
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castrator86
Toieo
It to hijack but since we’re on the topic of power cables, what’s with all the horror stories about mix and matching cables? ie using EVGA supplied cables on a Seasonic PSU (not saying these are an issue, only illustration).
It makes me wonder about cable mod’s and do they factor your specific PSU and GPU? Even the same brand power supply can be wired differently (or so I’ve read).
Makes me nervous cause blowing up parts is not something I want to afford same as using split power cables
Basically; think about how much the integrity of the cable matters to the component that's running. Motherboard, CPU, and GPU cables should never be "split" off as these are the highest and most important power draws in the system. The more you add on points of failure (or low quality cables), the more likely it is to screw up.
Now getting into the load issues that come with daisy chains is different. There are some arguments to be made about single rail/split rail systems that can handle those loads, etc. but most people don't read those parts of the spec sheet/user manual. Do you really want 450W of power that your GPU is trying to suck down coming from a single cable that's split to three connectors? Not really; that's gonna burn right through them with how many amps are trying to get to the card.
Therefore, it's always safest and best practice to go with 1-cable per power connector. Are some PSUs fine and can get away with a daisy chain situation, yes. Do you want to take that risk and find out? Not really.
1) 425 watts, not 450 watts 2) No one in their right mind will daisy chain a single 8-pin into three 8-pins. That is absurd. The thing people are doing is daisy chaining a single 8-pin into two 8-pins and then providing a second dedicated 8-pin for the third connection. It is an acceptable practice if the PSU manufacturer rates its PSU and cables for that purpose. Not necessarily recommended, but perfectly acceptable if there are no other options. From the other thread: ty_ger07
Intoxicus
If we have a 500W limit at 12v that's 42.6667 amps.
Divided by the number of wires... You forgot that step. Also subtract 75 watts from the initial 500 watts because those 75 watts (and even more, as measured) come from the PCI-E slot.
(500 watts − 75 watts)÷12 volts ÷ 6 contacts = 5.9 amps per contact at the PSU-side when using two 8-pin connectors on the PSU side to power three 8-pin connectors to the GPU. Then +/- whatever the GPU power balances. Worst case scenario, with power balancing, one 8-pin connector on the PSU-side will have 3.9 amps per contact, and the other 8-pin connector on the PSU-side will have 7.9 amps per contact.
Why we have to have this discussion in 3 different threads, is beyond me. jankerson
There aren't any technical benefits of using a daisy chained cable period.
Not true. The "technical" benefit is that you might not need to pay $150 to buy a new power supply, if your existing power supply can be safely used with cables and connectors rated by the PSU manufacturer to be used in such a daisy-chained fashion. That technically is a big possible benefit. Reduce expense. Reduce waste. So on, and so forth.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/01/11 12:12:59
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baggins_face
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 12:20:55
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I don't think that daisy chaining connectors to save a bit on expense of a new PSU is worth the risk of frying your new GPU. IMO
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ty_ger07
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 12:24:33
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baggins_face
I don't think that daisy chaining connectors to save a bit on expense of a new PSU is worth the risk of frying your new GPU. IMO
I don't think that there is any evidence of it frying a new GPU. IMO Until there is evidence of it happening, I refuse to get on a soap box and denounce using daisy-chained cables as a blanket statement.
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castrator86
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 12:41:42
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Then you do that.
But if your PSU is old enough to not have enough dedicated PCIe cables; then chances are it's not going to be rated well enough to handle daisy chaining them.
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ty_ger07
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/11 12:56:33
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castrator86
Then you do that.
But if your PSU is old enough to not have enough dedicated PCIe cables; then chances are it's not going to be rated well enough to handle daisy chaining them.
My standpoint already has that covered. As I said, "... if your existing power supply can be safely used with cables and connectors rated by the PSU manufacturer to be used in such a daisy-chained fashion." For example, Seasonic Prime, Focus, and Core power supplies have contacts rated for 9 amps. Using the math I provided in reply #77 above, you can verify that it is acceptable to daisy-chain approved cables with those specific Seasonic power supplies. This information comes from Seasonic. Seasonic even provides images showing which configurations are approved vs not approved. So, let's say that you have a Seasonic Focus 750W power supply. Do you have to replace that $100 power supply with a $200 power supply? No, not necessarily. It would be wasteful to replace the PSU for that reason alone. The cables and contacts are rated for this sort of load, and using a daisy-chained cable (included) is the only way to have the number of connections required. On the other hand, if you owned a Seasonic Focus 850W power supply, which has enough cables to not necessitate daisy-chaining, of course I would recommend not daisy-chaining. It's simply a matter of greater safety margins and greater redundancy. There's no reason why you couldn't daisy-chain in this scenario, but why would you, if it isn't necessary? I am not encouraging daisy-chaining. I am only stating from a fundamental standpoint, I can't broadly denounce daisy-chaining. It has to be done on a PSU-by-PSU basis. Jacob himself tweeted a picture of his GPU connected to a daisy-chained cable.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/01/11 13:57:17
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Intoxicus
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/18 08:49:39
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ty_ger07
baggins_face
I don't think that daisy chaining connectors to save a bit on expense of a new PSU is worth the risk of frying your new GPU. IMO
I don't think that there is any evidence of it frying a new GPU. IMO
Until there is evidence of it happening, I refuse to get on a soap box and denounce using daisy-chained cables as a blanket statement.
Good for you. What benefit is there to using a Daisy chain?
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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ty_ger07
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/18 09:44:37
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Intoxicus
ty_ger07
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I don't think that daisy chaining connectors to save a bit on expense of a new PSU is worth the risk of frying your new GPU. IMO
I don't think that there is any evidence of it frying a new GPU. IMO
Until there is evidence of it happening, I refuse to get on a soap box and denounce using daisy-chained cables as a blanket statement.
Good for you.
What benefit is there to using a Daisy chain?
You could look up one post above yours (#81) and see the answer. ty_ger07
So, let's say that you have a Seasonic Focus 750W power supply. Do you have to replace that $100 power supply with a $200 power supply? No, not necessarily. It would be wasteful to replace the PSU for that reason alone. The cables and contacts are rated for this sort of load, and using a daisy-chained cable (included) is the only way to have the number of connections required.
Or, a few posts before that (#77). ty_ger07
Not true. The "technical" benefit is that you might not need to pay $150 to buy a new power supply, if your existing power supply can be safely used with cables and connectors rated by the PSU manufacturer to be used in such a daisy-chained fashion. That technically is a big possible benefit. Reduce expense. Reduce waste. So on, and so forth.
If you want the math and PSU manufacturer specifications to back up why it is acceptable to daisy chain with a PSU and cables rated for daisy-chaining, you can look up above for that too. Like I said multiple times (you can read that above, or in your other duplicate threads, as well), I am not advocating daisy-chaining. I am only stating that I refuse to denounce daisy-chaining. Daisy-chaining is acceptable in some situations and is sometimes preferable from a financial and e-waste standpoint. Saying that "daisy-chaining is bad; don't ever do it" is just not the correct approach. It doesn't provide a proper explanation of why daisy chaining may be bad in some situations, or acceptable in other situations. Especially, I think it is silly to assume that the big spike in 3080 FTW3 and 3090 FTW3 failures has something to do with daisy-chaining; there is just no supporting evidence. It puts pressure and blame on the users, assuming that the users did something wrong from the onset, instead of allowing the discussion to go deeper into root-cause analysis.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/01/19 07:26:43
ASRock Z77 • Intel Core i7 3770K • EVGA GTX 1080 • Samsung 850 Pro • Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium
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Jeff007245
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Re: GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2021/01/18 23:34:07
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Not only do single cables provide more durable power, it actually looks cleaner. The way split pcie cables look out of place at times.
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