enewt
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 08:46:04
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nick_shl
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 08:46:48
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CheemonstonzoThis would an always-online-DRM to use your GPU. If someone has the capability to modify the driver & BIOS, they strip out the call-home functions and just flash a different ID that will only work with their driver. nVidia driver package will ignore this GPU as ID won't match. Is it a problem? To mine you need to be online anyway. You can't modify BIOS - it is encrypted and only Nvidia has key for it. Just one question: why hacks for latest generation consoles unavailable? Rhetorical question. LordSyrionCan't the return value be intercepted and spoofed into fooling the system to allow mining? Or am I totally wrong in that thinking? It can. But chip can generate every time different data by using hardware random generator. And because it is every time is different, you can't use one respond again and again.
post edited by nick_shl - 2021/04/30 08:55:47
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xeddex
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 08:47:00
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LordSyrion
Can't the return value be intercepted and spoofed into fooling the system to allow mining? Or am I totally wrong in that thinking?
No you're completely correct (see all DRM attempts at locking down software that have ever existed (games are a great example)). The only reason pirating games became less attractive was because real time online gaming became the core gameloop of many games (and that is something that can be enforced pretty well) EDIT: modern consoles being a shining example as well
post edited by xeddex - 2021/04/30 08:48:19
Associate Code: 23S8AA3RDEC6NOL  10G-P5-3898-KR 12/16/2020 9:09:59 AM PT No 10G-P5-3888-KR 12/16/2020 4:29:05 AM PT No 24G-P5-3987-KR 10/5/2020 8:41:49 PM PT Yes (passed on it)10G-P5-3897-KR 9/26/2020 6:02:30 AM PT No 10G-P5-3895-KR 9/26/2020 6:02:16 AM PT No 10G-P5-3885-KR 9/20/2020 6:09:36 AM PT No 10G-P5-3883-KR 9/20/2020 6:09:26 AM PT No 10G-P5-3881-KR 9/20/2020 6:09:05 AM PT No
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Bora1114
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:06:54
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I think everyone is overlooking the simple fact the mining software itself can be changed to bypass driver checks by knowing what the drivers are looking for. Eth is going to staking by the end of the year anyway but something else will probably take its place and use a different algo. The 3060 "limiter" doesn't work on other algos.
I think this is all just for show and an attempt to try and block the future resale market. Nvidia will always be reacting to the changes and therfor old drivers will be out there that work.
As for consoles, xbox dev mode reduced the desire for a hack by allowing homebrew and emulators. As others say, online gaming is an incentive as well.
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nick_shl
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:15:45
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Bora1114I think everyone is overlooking the simple fact the mining software itself can be changed to bypass driver checks by knowing what the drivers are looking for. Lock is not in driver. it is in BIOS/chip itself. Driver only can ask chip to unlock. Nvidia claimed that RTX 3060 has " secured handshake" with driver to unlock mining. I assume they almost done it right way, except they made driver that contains part responsible for respond instead ask respond from Nvidia server. So, hack is possible in this case. But even so, I am not aware about any hacked driver for Linux or for Windows that allow full mining speed on RTX 3060 in 1x riser and without monitor emulator.
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Matsoe
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:17:06
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Professional miners have deep pockets and can hire real programmers to hack of bypass the anti-mining security.
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Bora1114
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:25:02
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nick_shl
Bora1114I think everyone is overlooking the simple fact the mining software itself can be changed to bypass driver checks by knowing what the drivers are looking for. Lock is not in driver. it is in BIOS/chip itself. Driver only can ask chip to unlock. Nvidia claimed that RTX 3060 has "secured handshake" with driver to unlock mining. I assume they almost done it right way, except they made driver that contains part responsible for respond instead ask respond from Nvidia server. So, hack is possible in this case. But even so, I am not aware about any hacked driver for Linux or for Windows that allow full mining speed on RTX 3060 in 1x riser and without monitor emulator.
The handshake is what I am referencing. The lock seems to be reducing the memory bandwidth in half but only in Eth. If you change the algo of eth to a different pattern of usage say any other crypto algo, the handshake no longer locks the card. This means Nvidia will always be reacting.
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smellyunicorn
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:26:43
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I'm in the dreaded 10G-P5-3897-KR queue. I know it won't happen but it'd be nice of EVGA to all those people in essentially dead queues to move their option to another one or the TI variants when they come around.
post edited by smellyunicorn - 2021/04/30 09:48:18
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Matsoe
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:28:29
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That would be great if EVGA would do that: moving the 3080 or even the 3090 Queues to the 3080ti queue list.
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nick_shl
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:33:11
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Bora1114If you change the algo of eth to a different pattern of usage say any other crypto algo, the handshake no longer locks the card. This means Nvidia will always be reacting. True, but... it is not a miners who make value of coin, but a market. Alternative coins profitable now because not so much people mines it. As soon as every one switch from Eth to some alternative coin profitability will drop below profitable level.
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abagailsflorist
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:45:20
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Unfortunately, Friday drops have been few are far between :(
C'mon drops......giddyup!
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EnigmicAzn
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:48:45
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smellyunicorn
I'm in the dreaded queue. I know it won't happen but it'd be nice of EVGA to all those people in essentially dead queues to move their option to another one or the TI variants when they come around.
Matsoe
That would be great if EVGA would do that: moving the 3080 or even the 3090 Queues to the 3080ti queue list.
Won't happen. Moving those slow queues into a more active one would just congest that one and make those who are already in wait longer. With moving it directly into the 3080 Tis when they launch, that won't happen either. It's not out yet and they will most likely announce it before hand. That means everybody(elite) has an equal and fair chance of getting into the queue when it launches. You'll know the time and date, you'll have to put in the effort now to be ready at the time when it launches.
12G-P5-3968-KR 6/3/2021 7:57:11 AM PT Removed by user 12G-P5-3967-KR 6/3/2021 7:50:01 AM PT YES
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ertaz
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:48:49
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EVGAFan5
Wow, most recent timestamps to notify aren't even in 2021 yet. Lost a bit a hope as someone coming in late to the game.
It's a rough place to be. I was lucky to pick up a 3080 XC3 Ultra from a Bestbuy drop in November. My brother got in on the 3070 queue early and picked up a FTW3 for me as well. I was just able to pickup an MSI 3070 Ventus 3X from the Newegg shuffle. I really want the EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA HYBRID GAMING or a 3080TI for my current build.
EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA HYBRID GAMING,10G-P5-3888-KR 12/10/2020 4:01:05 PM PT No EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 GAMING,10G-P5-3883-KR 10/6/2020 1:46:14 PM PT No EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 FTW3 GAMING,10G-P5-3895-KR 10/6/2020 1:45:45 PM PT No EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 BLACK GAMING, 10G-P5-3881-KR 9/22/2020 4:27:58 AM PT No
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vndragonslayer1
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 09:56:17
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Bora1114
xeddex
Bora1114
RasTeX
https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-30-lite-hash-rate-series-to-begin-shipping-mid-may
If this turns out to be true, we are heading to better future?
Then again....
Expect it to be cracked fast maybe even by Nvidia again.
Sounds like it's a physical change to the chips. However that doesn't mean it's not crackable; just depends on what they changed. If they changed the chip where it has a bit of silicon that's a flag to say "hey i don't do crypto" then presumably bypassable since software would check for the flag and software can be hacked. On the other hand if they changed the chip by cutting/changing some circuit paths that impact crypto but don't effect gaming then... Nvidia 1 Miners 0 game over.
With the 3060 it was a physical change as well but it still required a driver to detect usage. There is no way on only a hardware level to reduce crypto performance without changing the architecture which they wont do until the next series comes out. (Even then I don't expect them to change the architecture away from compute)
3060xc has been cracked... consider it a dud in attempts to low hash rate... miners are feasting on this card hard because theyre so cheap and does 2x hash of 2060
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vndragonslayer1
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:00:33
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smellyunicorn
I'm in the dreaded 10G-P5-3897-KR queue. I know it won't happen but it'd be nice of EVGA to all those people in essentially dead queues to move their option to another one or the TI variants when they come around.
n trigger more people? suggestions like this is dumb. u want card ? sign up for it.. none of this sign up for 1 card n be entitled to any new card b.s. i know u been waiting forever. but so have 239487239483 other people in front of you.. tbh.. if u only rely on just evga queue, you're most likely not going to get a card ever.. try BB/ amazon/shuffle/LINUS .. limiting to 1 option is just chasing a unicorn heres my queue that i've been waiting "forever" according to some of u. 10G-P5-3897-KR 9/21/2020 12:00:01 PM PTNo
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coldrain85
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:01:12
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Matsoe
That would be great if EVGA would do that: moving the 3080 or even the 3090 Queues to the 3080ti queue list.
Did you consider that perhaps not everyone in the 3897 queue wants a 3080TI? You are suggesting forcing a more expensive product on people that is not comparable to what they signed up for. That's not a good idea in any way.
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Cheemonstonzo
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:06:15
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Bora1114
nick_shl
Bora1114I think everyone is overlooking the simple fact the mining software itself can be changed to bypass driver checks by knowing what the drivers are looking for. Lock is not in driver. it is in BIOS/chip itself. Driver only can ask chip to unlock. Nvidia claimed that RTX 3060 has "secured handshake" with driver to unlock mining. I assume they almost done it right way, except they made driver that contains part responsible for respond instead ask respond from Nvidia server. So, hack is possible in this case. But even so, I am not aware about any hacked driver for Linux or for Windows that allow full mining speed on RTX 3060 in 1x riser and without monitor emulator.
The handshake is what I am referencing. The lock seems to be reducing the memory bandwidth in half but only in Eth.
If you change the algo of eth to a different pattern of usage say any other crypto algo, the handshake no longer locks the card. This means Nvidia will always be reacting.
Even if they have a watchdog and I2C security chip (like Xbox controllers), this can still be spoofed or bypassed with a firmware flash. No software in uncrackable. Consoles are only succeeding in this area due to a security-patrolled walled garden and relatively happy customers. But this doesn't mean they can't be hacked and security checks spoofed.
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undecided65
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:10:19
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Cheemonstonzo
nick_shl
xeddexSounds like it's a physical change to the chips. However that doesn't mean it's not crackable; just depends on what they changed. If they changed the chip where it has a bit of silicon that's a flag to say "hey i don't do crypto" then presumably bypassable since software would check for the flag and software can be hacked. Nope! Software can not be hacked if it done right. Actually it is simple: chip can provide some data(every time different) to the driver, driver should make some calculations and send result back into chip, chip check result and if it right - unlock mining. To make this unhackable, Nvidia must move calculations to own server and driver should ask server to do it. In this case they can check if it request from legit developer. Because you can't get algorithm to transform data, you can't hack it.
This would an always-online-DRM to use your GPU. If someone has the capability to modify the driver & BIOS, they strip out the call-home functions and just flash a different ID that will only work with their driver. nVidia driver package will ignore this GPU as ID won't match.
Only for mining, for gaming, you don't have to be 'online', the check would fail if offline but GPU will function fine for gaming.
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drewski989
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:11:21
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As I suggested before, EVGA could implement a "second chance" queue for essentially dead-skus, where those people could get a chance to inherit user-cancelled Notify Mes. I would be open to gifting my queue spots to others if I knew it was going to someone who signed up in Sept for an XC3 Black 3080 that was never coming.
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Cheemonstonzo
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:14:35
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undecided65
Cheemonstonzo
nick_shl
xeddexSounds like it's a physical change to the chips. However that doesn't mean it's not crackable; just depends on what they changed. If they changed the chip where it has a bit of silicon that's a flag to say "hey i don't do crypto" then presumably bypassable since software would check for the flag and software can be hacked. Nope! Software can not be hacked if it done right. Actually it is simple: chip can provide some data(every time different) to the driver, driver should make some calculations and send result back into chip, chip check result and if it right - unlock mining. To make this unhackable, Nvidia must move calculations to own server and driver should ask server to do it. In this case they can check if it request from legit developer. Because you can't get algorithm to transform data, you can't hack it.
This would an always-online-DRM to use your GPU. If someone has the capability to modify the driver & BIOS, they strip out the call-home functions and just flash a different ID that will only work with their driver. nVidia driver package will ignore this GPU as ID won't match.
Only for mining, for gaming, you don't have to be 'online', the check would fail if offline but GPU will function fine for gaming.
I disagree, but that's without the full understanding of how mining performance is limited. I can only assume this is done by wholesale limiting of GPU performance when it detects a particular workload (like halving the clockspeed or the like). I can only hope they'd make it more intelligent where it doesn't need an online security verification for every workload. I'm not sure how professional, scientific, and rendering workloads might be affected.
post edited by Cheemonstonzo - 2021/04/30 10:17:40
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defensor
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:19:39
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What kinda of bird call you think we need to use to entice the drops today? Whatever was used Tuesday needs to be sounded again.
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smellyunicorn
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:21:00
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Yeah, its kind of like the Shuffle that Newegg is doing before I would just select the GPU I wanted and didn't bother with the other stuff. But now since any card is hard to get next round of GPU's people are going to sign up for all of them just due to supply issues. I'm going to do so simply because the one I picked turned out to be a dud.
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TheRealMikeVan
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:24:33
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defensor
What kinda of bird call you think we need to use to entice the drops today? Whatever was used Tuesday needs to be sounded again.
I want to say it's because we were all calling it Queuesday, but we do that every week and it only works occasionally 
EVGA RTX 3080 Ti FTW3 Ultra Intel i7-9700k Corsair HX1200i Gigabyte Z390m Gaming 32GB 3200MHz DDR4 G. Skill Ripjaws V Series Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL White
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nick_shl
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:26:40
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CheemonstonzoEven if they have a watchdog and I2C security chip (like Xbox controllers), this can still be spoofed or bypassed with a firmware flash. BIOS encrypted, decryption key inside GPU. Even if you will be able to extract it somehow it may be public-key cryptography algorithm and you will be able decrypt BIOS with this key, but you will not be able to encrypt you own BIOS. Good luck with that. CheemonstonzoNo software in uncrackable. " Unhackable" mean that effort exceed reasonable time or money amount. If you have enough money you don't have to hack thing at all - you can just make your own.
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faith730
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:27:20
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Gimping cards isn't really appealing but if it helps with the current situation of getting a GPU, I guess I can somewhat accept it. It just feels like you're paying for an incomplete product.
Also, I'm not a 100% that Nvidia is doing this for the good of gamers but rather for their own bottom line to sell mining cards. The production cost of mining cards are less while they can still charge a premium. Besides, if the ramp up mining cards, where do you think those chips will come from? There's not an infinite supply of chips so moreso the gaming skus will be cannibalize but directly from Nvidia this time
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smellyunicorn
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:28:27
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vndragonslayer1
smellyunicorn
I'm in the dreaded 10G-P5-3897-KR queue. I know it won't happen but it'd be nice of EVGA to all those people in essentially dead queues to move their option to another one or the TI variants when they come around.
n trigger more people? suggestions like this is dumb. u want card ? sign up for it.. none of this sign up for 1 card n be entitled to any new card b.s. i know u been waiting forever. but so have 239487239483 other people in front of you.. tbh.. if u only rely on just evga queue, you're most likely not going to get a card ever.. try BB/ amazon/shuffle/LINUS .. limiting to 1 option is just chasing a unicorn
heres my queue that i've been waiting "forever" according to some of u.
9/21/2020 12:00:01 PM PTNo
I'm literally in the same boat. The issue is that other 3080s have moved faster and there's no insight as to why. We don't know if its cause more people signed up for that card or if EVGA is producing less of it. I was only saying that if it is something that EVGA did i.e produce more or another variant vs the 3897. There was no one anyone would have predicted that. I'm trying other ways to get cards like most people but the notify system seems like the most straight forward option. And I don't think it would trigger people if EVGA was like 'hey we know you signed up for this card only and our production focus shifted so other variants so here's an option to get another card without resetting your timer. They can even do it for people who only signed up for one card, those people just looked at the options and chose the card they thought would best fit their needs.
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Slimmer
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:28:35
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10700k / 3080 FTW3 ULTRON 12g / 32g mem Core P3 / GF2 ARGB 850w / 3440x1440@100Hz
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nick_shl
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:36:54
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faith730Also, I'm not a 100% that Nvidia is doing this for the good of gamers but rather for their own bottom line to sell mining cards. The production cost of mining cards are less while they can still charge a premium. More important: next crypto crash those cards become pumpkin and will not compete with new Nvidia graphics cards.
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vndragonslayer1
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:37:30
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smellyunicorn
vndragonslayer1
smellyunicorn
I'm in the dreaded 10G-P5-3897-KR queue. I know it won't happen but it'd be nice of EVGA to all those people in essentially dead queues to move their option to another one or the TI variants when they come around.
n trigger more people? suggestions like this is dumb. u want card ? sign up for it.. none of this sign up for 1 card n be entitled to any new card b.s. i know u been waiting forever. but so have 239487239483 other people in front of you.. tbh.. if u only rely on just evga queue, you're most likely not going to get a card ever.. try BB/ amazon/shuffle/LINUS .. limiting to 1 option is just chasing a unicorn
heres my queue that i've been waiting "forever" according to some of u.
9/21/2020 12:00:01 PM PTNo
I'm literally in the same boat. The issue is that other 3080s have moved faster and there's no insight as to why. We don't know if its cause more people signed up for that card or if EVGA is producing less of it. I was only saying that if it is something that EVGA did i.e produce more or another variant vs the 3897. There was no one anyone would have predicted that. I'm trying other ways to get cards like most people but the notify system seems like the most straight forward option. And I don't think it would trigger people if EVGA was like 'hey we know you signed up for this card only and our production focus shifted so other variants so here's an option to get another card without resetting your timer. They can even do it for people who only signed up for one card, those people just looked at the options and chose the card they thought would best fit their needs.
what other 3080 that have moved faster? u realize 3080 ftw 3 ultra has the most movement right? we dont have this data but i can assure u this sku sold the most.. dont even talk about the hybrid line.. those got real deliveries in dec with early sign up starting in nov and those launched 2 months have the initial 3000 series launch. so please tell me which model has moved more numbers
post edited by vndragonslayer1 - 2021/04/30 10:39:32
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Larac
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Re: New EVGA.com Notification Checkout Process
2021/04/30 10:41:24
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faith730
Gimping cards isn't really appealing but if it helps with the current situation of getting a GPU, I guess I can somewhat accept it. It just feels like you're paying for an incomplete product.
Also, I'm not a 100% that Nvidia is doing this for the good of gamers but rather for their own bottom line to sell mining cards. The production cost of mining cards are less while they can still charge a premium. Besides, if the ramp up mining cards, where do you think those chips will come from? There's not an infinite supply of chips so moreso the gaming skus will be cannibalize but directly from Nvidia this time
I also wonder how the Mine block may affect researchers and others that use the Memory on the cards for heavy math work. The 3060 would have been little use to most, but the 3080ti on the other hand. I agree this is just a move to sell the mining cards nothing more, with a heavy PR spin.
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