Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 18:59:15
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ShadowMAN280x
I'm concerned that maybe the thermal pads work better under pressure... despite the benefits of direct contact cooling, the backplate puts a fair amount of pressure for the pads.
Yeah that's definitely part of it. At present I'm re-run ING after doing fresh pads on 2 of the memory sets because those had been reused several times & one of them had obvious pressure issues. Right now the test is almost done (takes around 36 minutes) and I'm at Mem1 ~51C, Mem2 ~53-54C & Mem3 is at 46. 2-46.8C and has been steady there for about 8 minutes. If those hold, that would be almost 4C lower on Mem2 than with the backplate, about the same on Mem1, and 1C or so lower on Mem3. Unfortunately junction temp is still hitting 72C occasionally, so I think I still have a pressure issue somewhere. But when you consider those Temps compared to stock configuration are almost 12C cooler on Mem1, 12C cooler on Mem2, and 3C cooler on Mem3 (that one has to be face side & is only being effected by less PCB heatsoak from other components running cooler) - I would say it's definitely working pretty great. I just wish I had a way to put more pressure on the heatsinks without using something stupid like rubber bands.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 19:06:41
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Welp, unfortunately it looks like that did a little good, but not much:  I'm gonna go back to using the backplate, too much concern for too little improvement going from backplate to direct contact pads & heatsinks.
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 19:43:48
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Dabadger84
Welp, unfortunately it looks like that did a little good, but not much:
I'm gonna go back to using the backplate, too much concern for too little improvement going from backplate to direct contact pads & heatsinks.
I think the temps would be cooler with larger sinks i can't wait to see what a big chunk of copper on the back dose maybe even with a water loop on it.  i want to try to get my bigger ones on it yet just to see.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 20:30:02
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Switched the heatsinks on the backplate to all thermal tape, retesting is lmoar done. So far Temps are pretty much identical to having the thermal pads in between the backplate and the heatsinks. Interesting. This means I can vertically mount again once my liquid loop situation is sorted.
So far I've seen 50.5C on Mem1, 58C on Mem2 & 48C on Mem3. So slightly higher than with the pad, but not enough to really make a difference in OCing.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 20:45:29
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 Tape vs pads, no much difference, when it comes to on top of the Backplate. Tape vs Pads GPU: Same GPU2: 0.2C higher Mem1: 1.1C higher Mem2: 0.7C higher Mem3: 0.3C higher Junction: 2C higher but this is probably a face side measurement so it's pretty irrelevant except for PCB heatsoak PWR1: Same PWR2: 0.2C higher PWR3: 0.3C lower O_o PWR4: 0.1C higher PWR5: Same So if you're wondering whether to go pads vs tape on the backplate to attach heatsinks - go tape, unless you want to waste money on more thermal pads for no real benefit. Edit: All of this experimenting has really made me want to take the card's face side apart & redo the paste/pads, I'll have to look in to what side of pads are needed on that side of the card & watch some videos on how to clean the puddy/paste off while being careful not to damage any SMDs on the GPU die area.
post edited by Dabadger84 - 2021/02/26 20:56:52
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 21:08:40
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I took all the .5mm pads off the tall heat sinks and used the 2mm that was on the shorter 100x100 heatsink numbers are looking real real good mem 2 must be on the top side because it sure isn't changing much and on this set up for the most part is has a hole 100x69x36 heat sink to its self. Screen shot with temp coming but so far 15 20 min in they are 41,53,46 mem 1000+ gpu 126+ power and temp all the way up. edit ambient 69-70 f fan on heat sink 2500 rpm ish
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 21:29:48
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I can't get the pictures to play nice on here well any way here are the results form port royal stress test higher temps are the shorter heat sink and the lower are the 2 taller heat sinks Hopefully they will upload. edit max j temp 68
post edited by DZelmer - 2021/02/26 21:32:17
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/26 21:36:16
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Looks like we are at the limit of the thermal pads....have to do some tinkering and try to get the back plate machined to it takes all 1mm or less if that even possible. this is going to take some time to get nice make a flat one and see how it dose out of alu as a prototype and see what happens. edit screen shot with heat sinks held down straight ghetto rigged zip ties and Velcro straps the fancy ones for cable management max j temp 82c side note not sure where mem2 is but the back heat sink closest to the pci2 connector dropped mem2 3 deg when i put pressure on it...yes i was messing with it under load while the benchmark was running finding the sweet spot on how tight to make the hold downs to much pressure makes the temps go up i can squeeze the heat sink with my hands and the temps go up it seems to be a real fine balance between squish and pressure. The heat sink on the out side of the card by the sli connector not sure there is even a temp sensor on that set to vram chips. It didn't matter what i did to that one non of the temps changed only the one closest to the pcie connector.
post edited by DZelmer - 2021/02/27 00:33:28
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 00:34:23
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image wouldn't load on last post.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 01:42:12
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Did you redo the pads on the face side of the card as well? Your temps are really low. Lower than mine, which for a non-full coverage block card, is impressive.
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 03:11:35
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How are you guys getting HWiNFO to show mem junction temp? All I see is this in the Sensor section for my KingPin:  My KingPin also just shows up as a generic EVGA 3090. Elsewhere HWiNFO does pick up that it is a KingPin:  I'm on the latest driver and HWiNFO version. Thanks!
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ShadowMAN280x
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 06:56:43
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Thanks for all your support. I like you tested all backplate thermal combinations and are allowing the community to decide what fits their preference. All this said, in reality, low 70's to upper 70's in load Memory Junction temp is extremely good and is ALL YOU NEED. No real performance gain dropping it further. My 3090 FE while gaming was 90C+ Memory Junction so this Kingpin is remarkable.
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 07:32:14
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No never touched the face side yet. One of the hold down straps is around the water hoses from the aio that could possibly put a little pressure on bad pads on the other side. Just moving the rad pits more pressure on the lines than that hold down though.
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 07:36:44
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pclausen
How are you guys getting HWiNFO to show mem junction temp?
All I see is this in the Sensor section for my KingPin:
My KingPin also just shows up as a generic EVGA 3090. Elsewhere HWiNFO does pick up that it is a KingPin:
I'm on the latest driver and HWiNFO version.
Thanks!
Make sure its the latest version of hwinfo64 and j temp is in the block of sensors just above the ones your looking at second sensor down. I will get a screen shot later when im by the computer again.
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 07:54:29
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pclausen
How are you guys getting HWiNFO to show mem junction temp?
All I see is this in the Sensor section for my KingPin:
My KingPin also just shows up as a generic EVGA 3090. Elsewhere HWiNFO does pick up that it is a KingPin:
I'm on the latest driver and HWiNFO version.
Thanks!
Your actually using a newer version than i am bata build? that is the j temp after running excavator daggerhashimoto for 6 hours+ 1400+ mem -100 gpu tdp 70%
post edited by DZelmer - 2021/02/27 07:57:07
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 07:59:00
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running excavator daggerhashimoto for 6 hours+ 1400+ mem -100 gpu tdp 70% ambient still 69-70F
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 08:04:19
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Thanks found it. Looks like I need to up my game for cooling the backside:   This is clearly insufficient: 
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 08:11:48
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pclausen
Thanks found it. Looks like I need to up my game for cooling the backside:
How the heck is your PWR5 that high lol what. That's crazy. Even stock, I don't think mine ever got over 40C or so. Did you do any pad changes or additions under the backplate, or just the heatsinks on top of it? I'm guessing the GPU hot spot is new for that version of HWinfo? I don't use the Betas, I wait lol
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 08:20:50
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DZelmer
Your actually using a newer version than i am bata build?
Yes, latest pre-release version.
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 08:27:17
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Dabadger84
How the heck is your PWR5 that high lol what. That's crazy. Even stock, I don't think mine ever got over 40C or so.
Did you do any pad changes or additions under the backplate, or just the heatsinks on top of it?
I'm guessing the GPU hot spot is new for that version of HWinfo? I don't use the Betas, I wait lol
I just cranked the fan sitting on top of the backplate heat sinks from 1,500 to 2,000 rpm. That helped some and got PWR5 down to 54C. MEM Junction dropped from 92C to 90C, which is still way up there. For now I just did the heatsinks on top (with 0.5mm pads). I have not removed the backplate or otherwise messed with the card other than adding the heatsinks. I'm waiting for a water block solution (hopefully both front and back), but since nothing has materialized yet, I might have to follow you guys lead in the interim and pop off the backplate. Btw, above temps are while mining ETH using Phoenix Miner with core -150 MHz, mem + 1200 and power 70% (results in 298 watts power draw @ 122 MH/s).
post edited by pclausen - 2021/02/27 08:37:39
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 10:05:30
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Even so, those temps are way higher than they should be... maybe stuff has bad contact, hopefully when you get the block and get it all taken apart you can correct that.
Fairly certain at this point Mem2 on the iCX temps is backside VRAM, so that temp will go down significantly once you improve the cooling on the backplate side itself - the pads that eVGA used seemed to do a pretty decent job, it's just everything else around them creating heat that has nowhere to go causing PCB heatsoak that really raises the VRAM temps, because the chiplets are stacked on both sides of the PCB.
I really want to disassemble mine & redo the face-side pads & such, but cleaning up that puddy & cleaning the paste off to re-apply is scary to me, I don't want to damage anything & RIP my GPU.
I have a sneaky suspicion at this point that my Memory Junction Temp is actually from a face-side memory module that's not getting proper contact, based on the fact that when I did the "no backplate" testing, equal pressure with no un-levelness made a huge difference in temps (dropped one reading by 5C when I got a heatsink off of a power phase/VRM box on the backside area near the memory chips so it was sitting flat on the chips).
I'm going to seriously consider doing thermal paste between the heatsinks & the backplate. Might do just the ones over the VRAM areas first, then see how easy/hard it is to remove & clean up the stuff, and go from there... but right now all I have is Thermal Grizzly & I don't really want to "waste" that on an experiment. lol
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 10:58:34
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I think I found out what part the issue is. The fan on the card barely spins. When I set it to manual in PX1, it only spins up to 2,500 for a few seconds, then goes down to between 0 and 800 or so:  When I just watch it, it alternates between not spinning at all, or spinning just a little bit before stopping again. When I attempt to control the fan speed from Afterburner, I get the exact same behavior. It will spin to 100% briefly, then go back down to a very low rpm. I'm running 6x Noctuas in push/pull on the rad. I wonder if that is somehow messing up the single on-board fan?
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vulcZ
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:16:20
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pclausen
I think I found out what part the issue is. The fan on the card barely spins. When I set it to manual in PX1, it only spins up to 2,500 for a few seconds, then goes down to between 0 and 800 or so:
When I just watch it, it alternates between not spinning at all, or spinning just a little bit before stopping again.
When I attempt to control the fan speed from Afterburner, I get the exact same behavior. It will spin to 100% briefly, then go back down to a very low rpm.
I'm running 6x Noctuas in push/pull on the rad. I wonder if that is somehow messing up the single on-board fan?
Are you running Phoenix Miner by chance?
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:18:50
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I created a 60% flat fan curve (after running at 100% for a few minutes):  The first part of the curve below shows the fan speed at 100% manual where it barely moved. The 2nd part, is when I did a re-apply which woke up the fan for a brief period. The 3rd portion is when I set the curve to 100% and then 60%:  I'll let it run for a while at 60% to see where the temps settle.
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pclausen
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:24:39
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vulcZ
Are you running Phoenix Miner by chance?
Yes I am. I also run Awesome Miner on another machine (VM actually) that controls all my rigs, including my gaming rig. I think I see where you're going with this. I suppose it is possible that is what is causing my erratic fan behavior. Per my follow up post above, I seem to have found a way around it by setting up a flat curve in PX1.
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vulcZ
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:33:05
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pclausen
vulcZ
Are you running Phoenix Miner by chance?
Yes I am. I also run Awesome Miner on another machine (VM actually) that controls all my rigs, including my gaming rig. I think I see where you're going with this. I suppose it is possible that is what is causing my erratic fan behavior. Per my follow up post above, I seem to have found a way around it by setting up a flat curve in PX1.
Well the workaround might be misleading, and here's why. Well assuming I'm right, which is rare LOL. Anyway, in the latest version of Phoenix Miner (wasn't there last version IIRC) there is a parameter that will control GPU fan speeds based on temp. I believe it's -tt. I was seeing similar erratic behavior so I read online and learned about that parameter. Anyway setting it to 0 fixed the issue for me. Basically disables control of the GPU fans by Phoenix Miner, and thus stopped affecting PX1. Worth a shot I think.
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DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:44:50
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pclausen
vulcZ
Are you running Phoenix Miner by chance?
Yes I am. I also run Awesome Miner on another machine (VM actually) that controls all my rigs, including my gaming rig. I think I see where you're going with this. I suppose it is possible that is what is causing my erratic fan behavior. Per my follow up post above, I seem to have found a way around it by setting up a flat curve in PX1.
I always set custom curves right off the bad i found fan 1 is the rad fans and 50 to 60c and fan2 the one on the card 40 to 45 c seems a good spot i leave the low at the stock spot and del the two points in the middle and have it max out around those temps. Px1 is still quirky and after a restart or of it crashes even if it loads a profile it dosen't apply it i have to reload it with the miner running or a benchmark then start the benchmark over again the miners see to be ok with adjustments on the fly. And the little box by the fan curves has to be checked for auto fan control to work the little fan button next to the manual controls dosen't seem to do any thing...buggy px1 still!
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vulcZ
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 11:59:31
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DZelmer
pclausen
vulcZ
Are you running Phoenix Miner by chance?
Yes I am. I also run Awesome Miner on another machine (VM actually) that controls all my rigs, including my gaming rig. I think I see where you're going with this. I suppose it is possible that is what is causing my erratic fan behavior. Per my follow up post above, I seem to have found a way around it by setting up a flat curve in PX1.
I always set custom curves right off the bad i found fan 1 is the rad fans and 50 to 60c and fan2 the one on the card 40 to 45 c seems a good spot i leave the low at the stock spot and del the two points in the middle and have it max out around those temps. Px1 is still quirky and after a restart or of it crashes even if it loads a profile it dosen't apply it i have to reload it with the miner running or a benchmark then start the benchmark over again the miners see to be ok with adjustments on the fly. And the little box by the fan curves has to be checked for auto fan control to work the little fan button next to the manual controls dosen't seem to do any thing...buggy px1 still!
Oh yeah definitely. To be clear I definitely recommend setting custom fan curves, especially if you do something other than gaming (like mining). For example I have found that when mining you want to go sorta high on the card's secondary fan, but can keep the radiator fans super low because the GPU isnt taxed very hard at all. But because of how buggy PX1 can be, and because I have fan curves set on my other fans, I run my radiator fans through my Corsair Commander Pro. What I love most about the CCP is that I can turn the radiator fans off completely. I set a fan curve so that the radiator fans only come up if the GPU exceeds 50C, which is never does idle, and only sometimes does during mining. I dont do it for the noise but rather so that dust doesnt accumulate as quickly as it normally would. My case fans curves are set such that case fans dont come on unless the CPU reaches a certain temperature. Which again, during basic tasks, means case fans almost never run. I love my CCP.
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rangerscott
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 18:38:07
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"Edit"
post edited by rangerscott - 2021/02/27 18:56:53
12900k Z690 Dark Evga 3090 Hybrid 32gb Trident z5 @ 6000 Corsair RM1000X psu
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!
2021/02/27 22:08:01
(permalink)
pclausen
I think I found out what part the issue is. The fan on the card barely spins. When I set it to manual in PX1, it only spins up to 2,500 for a few seconds, then goes down to between 0 and 800 or so:
When I just watch it, it alternates between not spinning at all, or spinning just a little bit before stopping again.
When I attempt to control the fan speed from Afterburner, I get the exact same behavior. It will spin to 100% briefly, then go back down to a very low rpm.
I'm running 6x Noctuas in push/pull on the rad. I wonder if that is somehow messing up the single on-board fan?
What drivers are you using? Are you powering the fans off the GPU plug ins? I would highly recommend you get some of the splitters I use: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-cable-splitter-4-fan-pwm-extended You can use those to power the fans directly off your PSU via 4-pin Molex, and still use PWM control via the GPU's radiator plugs, but no longer have to worry about the fan-draw effecting your power limit or causing other issues. I run mine off of my motherboard because the Z390 AORUS Master comes with thermocouples - I have those running to the radiator exhaust air on both the CPU & GPU radiators then the fan speed is adjusted based on that air temperature, so when the GPU or CPU are under load that causes the temperature of the radiator's exhaust air to increase, the fans speed up. This is especially nice because under lesser loads/bursty workloads, the fans don't spin up at all, because it's not enough heat generation to soak the radiator & increase the exhaust air temp.
ModRigs: https://www.modsrigs.com/detail.aspx?BuildID=42891 Specs:5950x @ 4.7GHz 1.3V - Asus Crosshair VIII Hero - eVGA 1200W P2 - 4x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Royal Silver @ 3800 CL14Gigabyte RTX 4090 Gaming OC w/ Core: 2850MHz @ 1000mV, Mem: +1500MHz - Samsung Odyssey G9 49" Super-Ultrawide 240Hz Monitor
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