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Helpful ReplyHot!3090 (Kingpin & others!) - Get that backside VRAM cool!

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_Gir_
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/13 23:40:24 (permalink)
Yup, I ended up using the 3mm Gelid on the back as well for the RAM and 2mm for the backside of the GPU die.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 02:57:28 (permalink)
_Gir_
Yup, I ended up using the 3mm Gelid on the back as well for the RAM and 2mm for the backside of the GPU die.



Is that especially squishy?  I don't know how the brand I'm getting in is, just got it because others said it's pretty good & the thermal conductivity was about the best I could find outside of the overpriced Fujipoly stuff.  Hoping the ones I'm getting are at least semi-rigid so I don't have to use 3mm on too much stuff... the bigger one I ordered was 2mm - I believe someone else said they did 1 or 1.5mm on the backside of the GPU die.  I'm basically going to place the pads at the sizes I think will work, push the backplate back in place, then remove it again & see if they're getting squished properly or not, then go up in thickness if necessary.  I don't want it to bow the backplate, but I want there to be at least some pressure so I know the pads will do their job well, transfer the heat the backplate, so the heatsinks on the other side can slurp the heat back out & get it the heck outta there. lol

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Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 03:15:05 (permalink)
Dabadger84
So the Thermal Pads shipped todae, looks like one set of them isn't slated to be here til Wednesday... the wait continues.  Looking forward to it though!
 
@Clovis since you merced your card already, how many screws were involved in removing the backplate, or do you remember?




I don't remember because I also removed the OLED, but total it looks like 13 to remove everything and the Oled 
I thought you went with the Fuji Poly! What do you have coming Wednesday?
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 05:23:34 (permalink)
Clovis559
Dabadger84
So the Thermal Pads shipped todae, looks like one set of them isn't slated to be here til Wednesday... the wait continues.  Looking forward to it though!
 
@Clovis since you merced your card already, how many screws were involved in removing the backplate, or do you remember?




I don't remember because I also removed the OLED, but total it looks like 13 to remove everything and the Oled 
I thought you went with the Fuji Poly! What do you have coming Wednesday?




Currently projected arrival date is Tuesday again, somehow - they waited & shipped all 4 things in one shipment looks like (all from the same company).  It's Ayunni or however it's spelt, few people mentioned them as a cheaper but still good alternative to Fuji.  I wasn't about to spend $40+ a sheet on Fujipoly when I got ALL of the 3 100x100 sheets of 1/1.5/3mm & 1 200x200 sheet of 2mm for $53 including tax.  6W/mK heat transfer should be fine - and it's better than nothin', which is what the backside of the VRMs & backside of the die have on them right now :-P lol

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#34
Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 07:18:03 (permalink)
So I fixed the problem I was having with Mem2 being way higher then the rest. I installed the original Fuji pads poorly, making them have mostly horrible contact with the plate. Now all the temperatures are in line with the front.
 
This makes me feel Fuji isn’t worth it, because it’s inline with Ziitek pads that are still installed on the front side. 🤔 I’d be curious to see how your new pads do, if you got all that for the price they charge for one Fuji pad 😢
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 10:53:24 (permalink)
Temps with watercooling and EKWB backplate.  using the thermal pads they sent with the block and backplate, nothing special.
 

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Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 13:14:52 (permalink)
Here are some temps from last night and the Hybrid Sandwich. That one mem is warm but no longer 48c. Sensors showing maximum on Port Royal.
 

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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 13:32:19 (permalink)
Dabadger84
_Gir_
Yup, I ended up using the 3mm Gelid on the back as well for the RAM and 2mm for the backside of the GPU die.



Is that especially squishy?  I don't know how the brand I'm getting in is, just got it because others said it's pretty good & the thermal conductivity was about the best I could find outside of the overpriced Fujipoly stuff.  




2.5mm would have been ideal but I can't find any that I'd like to use.  GELID is squishy but they're a tad firmer than the stock pads and their Ultimate model is softer than Extreme.  I have also received a couple packs that might have sat on the shelf for a while and were not as giving.  Fuji is overpriced especially for what we're doing here.
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MiztahSparklez
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 17:19:45 (permalink)
Dabadger84
_Gir_
Yup, I ended up using the 3mm Gelid on the back as well for the RAM and 2mm for the backside of the GPU die.



Is that especially squishy?  I don't know how the brand I'm getting in is, just got it because others said it's pretty good & the thermal conductivity was about the best I could find outside of the overpriced Fujipoly stuff.  Hoping the ones I'm getting are at least semi-rigid so I don't have to use 3mm on too much stuff... the bigger one I ordered was 2mm - I believe someone else said they did 1 or 1.5mm on the backside of the GPU die.  I'm basically going to place the pads at the sizes I think will work, push the backplate back in place, then remove it again & see if they're getting squished properly or not, then go up in thickness if necessary.  I don't want it to bow the backplate, but I want there to be at least some pressure so I know the pads will do their job well, transfer the heat the backplate, so the heatsinks on the other side can slurp the heat back out & get it the heck outta there. lol





3mm Gelid ultra from amazon was similar to factory.  It's like playdough.  I would only suggest this if going from PCB board to the backplate. It had enough give for the smaller components on ftw3, but it's not as big as the rear components on your card.
2.5 would be good for vram, but gelid doesn't have an equivalent.  This is where I was able to reuse the front pads from my air cooled setup. 3mm for vram was too high for the backplate standoffs and caused it to bow and uneven contact.
I would assume around 2mm for the back of GPU die, depending on how high those board components are.. adjust accordingly.  you probably want a pad that has some give like the gelid stuff.
 
One thing ive noticed with these pads.. once you squish them, they don't rebound very well. so constant removal may affect performance.
 
I wonder if someone could machine out a pressure plate that draws in backplate around the gpu to help with the clamping force on the rear vram. 
 
Something similar in shape to the copper plate below, but would attach on the outside of the back plate.  Longer GPU cooler screws could be used to mount it to the card, so we can get even pressure on both sides of the vram/gpu.
 

 
#39
Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 19:17:58 (permalink)
Ah, I'm not doin' the face-side of the card at all, it runs well enough that I do not wanna mess with it and potentially screw something up, nor do I want to have to redo the putty on the VRMs if there is any.
 
I'll try to document the pad process I go through to figure out what's best for what on the backplate as much as I can.  
 
Apparently my pads are ahead of schedule & will be here tomorrow (Monday), if the UPS guy wants to come out here in this snow... I may go find him in the morning & save him the 1 1/2 mile trip down our road lol
 
Also waiting for EK to process my darn liquid loop order still - hopefully that ships tomorrow.  I don't like almost $800 of parts/money being in limbo for this long, I ordered it Thursday evening, they're probably closed on the weekend I imagine so hopefully it'll get moving tomorrow.  If not I'll have to contact them and make sure it wasn't flagged for some reason, my bank sent me an fraud alert wanting me to confirm the charge and I approved it, we shall see how it goes.  That won't be here until at least the 19th though, probably longer now that it's taken this long to ship.  Paid over $100 in shipping, which almost made me not wanna do the order, but comparing EK's shop prices with the mark ups all the scalpers are doing for EK parts on Amazon, and it was actually cheaper to just get the stuff from EK directly & pay the ridiculous shipping price.  The actual parts were around $670, got the Quantum P360 kit, extra fans, extra tubing (just in case) and extra fittings (for when I add another radiator & the GPU, if I do).  And it's LGA 1200 compatible so it'll work when I upgrade to Z590/11900k in a few months as well.

I gotta find an ARGB controller than can do 5V plugs to a motherboard USB for when I get the eVGA Z590 Dark, since it apparently has zero RGB plug ins of any kind on it.  That's an oversight imo - I can understand now having RGB on the board much/at all, but not even having the plugs seems a bit ridiculous.  Even the FTW version of the board has no 12V/5V plug ins that I can see.

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#40
Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 19:51:47 (permalink)
Dabadger84
Ah, I'm not doin' the face-side of the card at all, it runs well enough that I do not wanna mess with it and potentially screw something up, nor do I want to have to redo the putty on the VRMs if there is any.
 
I'll try to document the pad process I go through to figure out what's best for what on the backplate as much as I can.  
 
Apparently my pads are ahead of schedule & will be here tomorrow (Monday), if the UPS guy wants to come out here in this snow... I may go find him in the morning & save him the 1 1/2 mile trip down our road lol
 
Also waiting for EK to process my darn liquid loop order still - hopefully that ships tomorrow.  I don't like almost $800 of parts/money being in limbo for this long, I ordered it Thursday evening, they're probably closed on the weekend I imagine so hopefully it'll get moving tomorrow.  If not I'll have to contact them and make sure it wasn't flagged for some reason, my bank sent me an fraud alert wanting me to confirm the charge and I approved it, we shall see how it goes.  That won't be here until at least the 19th though, probably longer now that it's taken this long to ship.  Paid over $100 in shipping, which almost made me not wanna do the order, but comparing EK's shop prices with the mark ups all the scalpers are doing for EK parts on Amazon, and it was actually cheaper to just get the stuff from EK directly & pay the ridiculous shipping price.  The actual parts were around $670, got the Quantum P360 kit, extra fans, extra tubing (just in case) and extra fittings (for when I add another radiator & the GPU, if I do).  And it's LGA 1200 compatible so it'll work when I upgrade to Z590/11900k in a few months as well.

I gotta find an ARGB controller than can do 5V plugs to a motherboard USB for when I get the eVGA Z590 Dark, since it apparently has zero RGB plug ins of any kind on it.  That's an oversight imo - I can understand now having RGB on the board much/at all, but not even having the plugs seems a bit ridiculous.  Even the FTW version of the board has no 12V/5V plug ins that I can see.


 
I got my tool if you want me to measure anything on the backside that I can get to :D
 

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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/14 22:16:11 (permalink)
Clovis559
I got my tool if you want me to measure anything on the backside that I can get to :D

 
Mostly just trying to figure out the spacing between the backplate and the components which I think I can only do by trial and error once I get those thermal pads in.  Hoping I can get away with mostly the smaller stuff, but we'll see.

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#42
mikejefferson
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 03:12:46 (permalink)
Dabadger84
Ah, I'm not doin' the face-side of the card at all, it runs well enough that I do not wanna mess with it and potentially screw something up, nor do I want to have to redo the putty on the VRMs if there is any.
 
I'll try to document the pad process I go through to figure out what's best for what on the backplate as much as I can.  
 
Apparently my pads are ahead of schedule & will be here tomorrow (Monday), if the UPS guy wants to come out here in this snow... I may go find him in the morning & save him the 1 1/2 mile trip down our road lol
 
Also waiting for EK to process my darn liquid loop order still - hopefully that ships tomorrow.  I don't like almost $800 of parts/money being in limbo for this long, I ordered it Thursday evening, they're probably closed on the weekend I imagine so hopefully it'll get moving tomorrow.  If not I'll have to contact them and make sure it wasn't flagged for some reason, my bank sent me an fraud alert wanting me to confirm the charge and I approved it, we shall see how it goes.  That won't be here until at least the 19th though, probably longer now that it's taken this long to ship.  Paid over $100 in shipping, which almost made me not wanna do the order, but comparing EK's shop prices with the mark ups all the scalpers are doing for EK parts on Amazon, and it was actually cheaper to just get the stuff from EK directly & pay the ridiculous shipping price.  The actual parts were around $670, got the Quantum P360 kit, extra fans, extra tubing (just in case) and extra fittings (for when I add another radiator & the GPU, if I do).  And it's LGA 1200 compatible so it'll work when I upgrade to Z590/11900k in a few months as well.

I gotta find an ARGB controller than can do 5V plugs to a motherboard USB for when I get the eVGA Z590 Dark, since it apparently has zero RGB plug ins of any kind on it.  That's an oversight imo - I can understand now having RGB on the board much/at all, but not even having the plugs seems a bit ridiculous.  Even the FTW version of the board has no 12V/5V plug ins that I can see.




Just as a side note I got all of my custom loop gear from Performance PCs and Titan Rigs. Both shipped fast and since my order was over $75 for Performance PCs and $100 for Titan Rigs shipping was free. They also had stuff in stock that EK's website did not have and never seems to like the black soft tubing and some of the fittings.
#43
liweichen6
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 09:35:44 (permalink)
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.

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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 09:59:10 (permalink)
liweichen6
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.

 
Heatsink? Yes. lol nice - airflow over it will help further.
 
Hoping I can get my thermal pads in today but with the snow we've gotten the UPS guy may not try the road... and thanks to my hurting my back last night, I'm in no shape to go driving around looking for him.

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#45
MiztahSparklez
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 13:05:12 (permalink)
liweichen6
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.


This is what I was thinking.  The bigger you can go with enough airflow should be pretty awesome.
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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 13:16:13 (permalink)
Got the thermal pads in, they're pretty heavy - and the 200x200 was bigger than I was expecting.  I can almost cover the entire back of the card twice between the 4 sheets I got of various sizes.
 
I will try to work on it today, but with not being able to lean over stuff, might not happen today or tomorrow.  If anything the back pain is getting worse not better lol

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#47
DZelmer
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 18:41:37 (permalink)
So i have a idea i have some 1/4 inch copper buss bars and access to a cnc mill if i get a nice copper back plate machined out would any one else be interested in one after getting all the kinks worked out like making sure the holes are in the exact right spots! I'm curious if this is going to be a one and done or if i should plan on making at least a few? My card just came today
#48
Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/15 18:46:26 (permalink)
I work at a college and one of the guys in the tech department said we have an instructor in the machine shops who can make water blocks. I need to be introduced to this person. You’re telling me, Homeboy can make me a custom water cooled back plate? Where do I sign up?
 
I wonder if he’s on campus. Most of our classes are off campus, but how can you teach a hands on class... online?
 
Dabadger84
Clovis559
I got my tool if you want me to measure anything on the backside that I can get to :D

 
Mostly just trying to figure out the spacing between the backplate and the components which I think I can only do by trial and error once I get those thermal pads in.  Hoping I can get away with mostly the smaller stuff, but we'll see.


 
I can get you the spacing for anything you want between the item and the back plate. Possibly just not the memory cause I don't want to take it apart :P
post edited by Clovis559 - 2021/02/15 18:50:04
#49
menko2
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 00:26:30 (permalink)
I got similar aluminum heatsinks to put on top of the backplate with a Noctua fan blowing up. I got temps reduced of around 4-5°C.

I put the heatsinks directly on top of the backplate without any thermal pad.

Do I need high conductivity 0.5 Thermal Pads between the heatsinks and the backplate? Or is it just fine placing them directly on top?
#50
liweichen6
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 04:33:50 (permalink)
Dabadger84
liweichen6
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.

 
Heatsink? Yes. lol nice - airflow over it will help further.
 
Hoping I can get my thermal pads in today but with the snow we've gotten the UPS guy may not try the road... and thanks to my hurting my back last night, I'm in no shape to go driving around looking for him.




The back fan is actually an intake so there's some airflow over it.
I ran out of thermal pads so only ended up covering 1/3 of the space lol, but the heatsink still gets quite hot.
I could also try to replace the backplate with the heatsink and see if there's any improvement.
 
Hopefully there will be a block for this card soon. Optimus originally said prototypes in Jan and sales in Feb, but it's already halfway into Feb.
#51
Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 05:19:55 (permalink)
Clovis559
I work at a college and one of the guys in the tech department said we have an instructor in the machine shops who can make water blocks. I need to be introduced to this person. You’re telling me, Homeboy can make me a custom water cooled back plate? Where do I sign up?
 
I wonder if he’s on campus. Most of our classes are off campus, but how can you teach a hands on class... online?
 
Dabadger84
Clovis559
I got my tool if you want me to measure anything on the backside that I can get to :D

 
Mostly just trying to figure out the spacing between the backplate and the components which I think I can only do by trial and error once I get those thermal pads in.  Hoping I can get away with mostly the smaller stuff, but we'll see.


 
I can get you the spacing for anything you want between the item and the back plate. Possibly just not the memory cause I don't want to take it apart :P



I basically just need to know what the distance between the backplate's start & the PCB's end is, so I have an ideal of how much thermal pad I'm going to need at the most.  I'll be measuring the stock memory thermal pads... I assume the chiplets themselves are what, .5mm?  So if the VRAM has 1mm pads on them, that would mean the whole thickness needed for the area is 1.5, that doesn't sound right compared to previous answers tech support has given other people.
 
liweichen6
Dabadger84
liweichen6
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.

 
Heatsink? Yes. lol nice - airflow over it will help further.
 
Hoping I can get my thermal pads in today but with the snow we've gotten the UPS guy may not try the road... and thanks to my hurting my back last night, I'm in no shape to go driving around looking for him.




The back fan is actually an intake so there's some airflow over it.
I ran out of thermal pads so only ended up covering 1/3 of the space lol, but the heatsink still gets quite hot.
I could also try to replace the backplate with the heatsink and see if there's any improvement.
 
Hopefully there will be a block for this card soon. Optimus originally said prototypes in Jan and sales in Feb, but it's already halfway into Feb.



I wouldn't recommend going bare in terms of just pads & heatsink, for the simple fact that you might short something out if it pokes through the pads & touches the heatsink.  That's why I'm not doing that.

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#52
Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 12:41:58 (permalink)
Here be useful information on just why those rear VRAMs run so hot & all that jazz:
 


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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 23:15:29 (permalink)
Got the pads in.  Here's prayin' I did the right sizes so they're squished just a bit & not too much.
 
Seems to be fine based on idle temps, but ya never know.
 
I did a LOT, whole back of the GPU die, redid the stuff on the top vRAM, and the VRM areas.  Everything on the VRM looked to be 2mm, the stuff on the back of the GPU die appeared to be thinner indeed, but I kinda spaced it & went the same size there, hoping that isn't a big issue - the Ayunni stuff seemed very squishable so I think it'll be great.
 
I'll upload some pictures & designate what I did where once I'm sure it's good to go... hoping I don't have to redo it because those backplate screws are a pain in the butt finding the right screw driver for them took a while.

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Dabadger84
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 23:35:30 (permalink)
So forgive the ambient variance... and the before test was with slightly higher voltage but... HELLO?!? These temps! lol
 


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Clovis559
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 23:38:52 (permalink)
I know 4 of the screws that hold the hybrid cooler are m2.5
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/16 23:41:19 (permalink)
Clovis559
I know 4 of the screws that hold the hybrid cooler are m2.5



I ain't touchin' those or anything else til I'm done testing it as is.  I think I did go too thick on behind the GPU die, but it seems to actually be... helping? O_o  I'm gonna go do some Cyberpunk for like half an hour at least & see what temps get up to.
 
I'm expecting Memory Junction Temp to be the same, because I think the module that's in is on the face-side of the card (meaning it'll only reduce from heatsoak of the PCB, nothing else).  But MAN are some of my other temps WAAAAAAY lower AGAIN.  Holy crapoli.

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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/17 01:56:13 (permalink)
Getting some odd readings, some temps are lower, some temps are the same, I checked by removing the backplate again and everything has good contact - redid 1 of the memory areas because it didn't have complete coverage, but the memory chips are all making slightly indents in to the pads, so there's definitely great contact.  I'm extremely tired so I'll continue testing tomorrow.
 
So far seems like Junction temp is up slightly compared to pre-thermal pad replacement.  VRM temps are slightly lower across the board, and memory temps are about the same... 
 
Do thermal pads require break in time?  Should I have done a better job removing the previous pads before putting new ones (I ended up replacing ALL of them on the backside btw)? There was some residue and little particles left over, but I got like 95% of them off pretty cleanly...
 
I really didn't have a choice about redoing some of the memory at least, one of them tore as I was taking the backplate off... 
 
Ah well, I'll mess with it more tomorrow & see what's what.

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#58
Lord Winchester
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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/17 14:01:18 (permalink)
liweichen6
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liweichen6
Temporary solution. Still need to test the thermals.

 
Heatsink? Yes. lol nice - airflow over it will help further.
 
Hoping I can get my thermal pads in today but with the snow we've gotten the UPS guy may not try the road... and thanks to my hurting my back last night, I'm in no shape to go driving around looking for him.




The back fan is actually an intake so there's some airflow over it.
I ran out of thermal pads so only ended up covering 1/3 of the space lol, but the heatsink still gets quite hot.
I could also try to replace the backplate with the heatsink and see if there's any improvement.
 
Hopefully there will be a block for this card soon. Optimus originally said prototypes in Jan and sales in Feb, but it's already halfway into Feb.




 
 
Mp5works in the UK does a Backplate Waterblock:
 
https://mp5works.com/store/
 
 
Don't know (yet) about the quality. 
 
I just don't know any reason why it shouldn't work🤷🏼‍♂️


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Re: 3090 (Kingpin) - Get that backside VRAM cool! Also: Thermal Pad size (backplate side)? 2021/02/17 17:25:17 (permalink)
I ordered these 3mm thermal pads, do they suck? Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp..._s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
I also ordered the exact same black heatsinks and intend on doing this exact same thing to my card. It looks like I need different size thermal pads, based on what I read here. I'm curious though, why couldn't I just use 3mm pads everywhere and have them be more squished in certain areas? Is the material that tough?

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#60
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