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Hot!phase change and GPUs

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BaudolinoX
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2015/09/26 10:47:14 (permalink)
I`m looking at a tower integrated phase change device for my next pc upgrade.
 
I am however not content with merely cooling my CPU. I also want to cool my GPUs
 
Would it be possible to apply the phase change to my CPU, but also to a radiator in order to put the cooling liquid far below zero degrees? I`m thinking i could add alcohol to the cooling liquid in order to maintain a -40C freezing temp. Should that not provide enough cooling to increase the OC on the GPUs?
 
I`ve found that watercooling is really not worth it as far as OC goes. I need much lower temps in order to puch my GPUs any further..
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    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2015/09/26 15:43:37 (permalink)
    First of All, Welcome to the Wonderful World of Sub-Zero Cooling.
     
    And Yes, Getting the Temperatures on the GPU(s) to -40C would DEFINITELY be enough to increase the Overclocking capability of Graphics Cards, and Over the Years here on the EVGA Forums, I will say I have tried Everything from Chilled Air Cooling through Dry Ice Cooling on my CPU's/MB's/GPU's in my Quest for "Getting it Colder".
     
    Presently I have been using a Custom SS Phase Change (and occasionally Dry Ice) for CPU Cooling and a Custom A/C Conversion Water Chiller that is "Capable" of reaching sub-zero temperatures for the Four Titan X Hydro Coppers on my Benching Rig as shown in my Mods Rigs.
     
    While my 300W SS will reach -40C at the Evap Head, Under Benching Loads, The ASUS OC Panel will show that the 5960X running at 4.875 GHz will produce enough Heat to raise the actual CPU temp anywhere from -11C to +20C during the Benchmarking Run.
     
    The Four Graphics Cards use +15C to +10C (or Colder) Chilled Pure Anti-Freeze  for GPU Cooling maintained around +20C to +16C Temp measured by EVGA Precision X software and those temps can be adjusted Much Lower depending on other factors such as the Humidity/Temperature of the A/C Room they are running in, But I always adjust my Chiller to Just Above Freezing to prevent too much Condensation from forming.
     
    I will add that my Chiller uses a High-Flow submersible pump (actually Two) to help keep the Cooling Liquid Medium from Freezing-up (when running near sub-zero) inside the Hose Lines/Water Blocks due to Physical Flow restrictions in my 4-Way SLI Cooling System. 
     
    Using this Overclocking/Benchmarking Rig setup I have managed to get some Top Ten Futuremark HOF Scores while STILL being able to run this System 24/7 If I so desired.
     
    I have used sub-zero liquid Cooling setups in the Past, So If you are Planning to go sub-zero using a Water/Alcohol/Anti-Freeze medium, You will find that even if you Insulate EVERYTHING (Hose Lines, Graphic Card PCB's, etc...) to prevent Condensation from forming and Shorting out Components, There will Still be a point where Frost/Ice will be impossible to prevent, Not to mention the amount of Water produced when you turn the System Off and Everything Thaws Out!
     
    I have experimented with using a Modified-to-Fit SS Phase Change on a Single Titan X Graphics Card that did manage to maintain around -12C to -16C while under Benchmarking Tests with favorable results, But unlike the EVGA Full Coverage Water Blocks, this only Cooled the GPU and Not the Memory or VRM Chips and also would be impractical for more than Two Cards (Space Limitations between the Cards) including the requirement of an additional SS Phase Change Unit which means there would be THREE SS Phase Change Units in this particular Rig (One for the CPU, Two for the Graphics Cards).
     
    To my knowledge, The only other way to run your System at Near -40C and Lower sub-zero temps on the Graphics Cards is with the use of Dry Ice or LN2 using Pots attached to the GPU's, But this is not a "Turn on and Forget about it" method of Cooling that doesn't require CONSTANT Temperature Monitoring and Coolant Level maintenance.
     
    I'll just say that if you DO decide to go ahead and use Sub-Zero "Water" Cooling on your GPU's, It will be an Experience you will not soon Forget, But Then Again.......That's where the Fun Starts!

     
         

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    #2
    JameshyB46
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 08:26:07 (permalink)
    After some searching I’ve came across this comment. I’m planning a build soon with 2 3090s (I’m waiting to see what rocket lake and zen 3 will be like before I commit to a cpu). I’ve known about phase change for a while and now I want to to it for my own build. My goal is to cool the cpu, the entire gpus, motherboard vrms and the chipset and maybe even the ram. How would I do this? I’ve only even seen people cool the cpus with a phase changer but I would be very shocked if no one else has ever wanted or tried to cool there whole PC with a phase changer.
    #3
    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 09:59:28 (permalink)
       Hi, JameshyB46, Welcome to the Forums.
     
    I had posted that reply 5 years ago to this very Day! Hard to believe it was that long ago.
     
    In answer to your question about the possibility of sub-zero cooling ALL the system components using multiple Phase Change units, I know back in 2006, the CPU and one or two Graphic Cards in the past have been sub-zero cooled using a HYDRA triple head phase change unit for the CPU and two GPU's. Originally Sold by FrozenCPU.com, That unit has been not available and out of production for quite a while.
    https://www.techpowerup.com/11804/cooler-express-hydra-sli-phase-change-triple-evaporator-now-available
     

    As far as sub-cooling the rest of the components (VRM, Chipset and ram memory), It would probably not be needed (plus would be very difficult to accomplish) and more than likely the sub-zero cooling effect of the two graphics cards and cpu would produce passive cooling to them. 
     
     
    post edited by hallowen - 2020/09/26 10:05:24

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    #4
    JameshyB46
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 14:22:26 (permalink)
    Thank you very much! Is there anything similar to the hydra? Or even some sort of adapter to go from the single tube on the unit to 3 pipes?
    #5
    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 14:52:51 (permalink)
    Unfortunately, The 2006 Hydra was the only dual GPU/single CPU phase change that I know of. 
    It was really just a large single stage phase change unit that had three separate evaporator Heads attached to the same evaporator line.
     

     
    You could build your own (or possibly have it built for you) by modifying/connecting two GPU evap Head lines and another single CPU evap head line to a fairly large single stage phase change to duplicate what the Hydra was like back in 2006.

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    JameshyB46
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 16:09:55 (permalink)
    Ok, now would a water chiller be able to achieve the same temps as something like the custom phase changer you showed above? I’m still pretty new to sub 0 cooling so I might be asking dumb questions
    post edited by JameshyB46 - 2020/09/26 17:01:10
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    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/26 16:28:29 (permalink)
    A water chiller can get to sub-zero temperatures, But at sub-zero temperatures you have the problem of Lots of condensation forming on the chiller lines.
    Since 2008 I have been using my A/C Conversion Chiller on my CPU and multiple GPU arrangements (2, 3 and 4-way SLI setups) with the ability to adjust/control the temperatures just to the point of not having condensation form on my chiller lines while only using the computer for web browsing and occasional gaming.
    Only when I am Overclocking/ Benchmarking do I go sub-zero.
     
     

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    JameshyB46
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 05:15:04 (permalink)
    How powerful would a chiller need to be to substantially cool dual 3090s and a top of the line next gen CPU, and how expensive would it be? Ideally I would also want to get pretty high over locks on the components. Also how much power would this pull from the wall?
    post edited by JameshyB46 - 2020/09/27 05:44:01
    #9
    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 06:06:40 (permalink)
    With my present new build I have an ASUS ROG Zenith II Extreme / AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3990X 64-core that is temporarily using two ASUS GTX 1080 Ti's in SLI until the release of the EVGA RTX 3090 Kingpin. 
    Even using outdated Graphics Cards, I have still managed to get to #8 in the 3DMark Time Spy Extreme CPU Score with my AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3990X on Chilled Water Cooling.
    https://www.3dmark.com/spy/14136437
     
    The present CPU and both GPU's are on Chilled water using my 6000 btu A/C Conversion Chiller that has been operating since 2008.
    My previous build was an ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme Omega / Intel i9-9980XE / Two EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Kingpins that were also under my A/C Conversion Chiller and in July, 2019 I was near the top ten in 3DMark Time Spy Extreme, But since the release of the 30xx series, I have dropped to position#53.
     https://www.3dmark.com/spy/7827302
     
    My home-made Chiller (pictured in my previous post) originally cost me around $400 to build and is still much cheaper than the $2000+ units that are available today, But then that is just my preference.
    I am sure that the newer chiller units will reach lower sub-zero temps than mine and it all depends on How Much you want to spend to achieve your goals.
     

    AMD Test Rig: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3990X - ASUS ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha - EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra or EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin - 32GB Corsair DDR4 3600MHz Memory - Primary Intel RigIntel i7-5960X - ASUS Rampage V Extreme - 2X GTX 1080 Ti SLI - 16GB Corsair DDR4 3000MHz Memory - MSI Laptop: GT83VR-7RF-Titan /18.4" Display - Intel i7-7920HQ - 2X GeForce GTX 1080M SLI - 64GB DDR4 2400MHz Memory -  
     
    #10
    sparetimepc
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 06:06:49 (permalink)
    Other than the koolance exc-900 or exc-800 chiller those are the best chiller on the market other than that you will have to go phase change I would imagine. My exc-800 will pull about 450 watts cooling dual 2080ti kingpins in sli.




    #11
    JameshyB46
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 06:09:46 (permalink)
    Ok, now with the phase change I assume I wouldn’t be able to use a full coverage GPU block am I right?
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    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 06:31:52 (permalink)
    JameshyB46
    Ok, now with the phase change I assume I wouldn’t be able to use a full coverage GPU block am I right?

    Not unless you re-create the Hydra System and try to find (or reproduce) the original GPU Evaporator Heads.
    post edited by hallowen - 2020/09/27 06:46:04

    AMD Test Rig: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3990X - ASUS ROG Zenith II Extreme Alpha - EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra or EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Kingpin - 32GB Corsair DDR4 3600MHz Memory - Primary Intel RigIntel i7-5960X - ASUS Rampage V Extreme - 2X GTX 1080 Ti SLI - 16GB Corsair DDR4 3000MHz Memory - MSI Laptop: GT83VR-7RF-Titan /18.4" Display - Intel i7-7920HQ - 2X GeForce GTX 1080M SLI - 64GB DDR4 2400MHz Memory -  
     
    #13
    hallowen
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 08:54:01 (permalink)
    Here is some 2008 photos about a Hydra-Type build by Biohazard that shows how he adapted the two GPU's into the single CPU evaporator line.
     
    https://www.techpowerup.com/49582/biohazard-showcases-phase-change-cooled-system
     

    post edited by hallowen - 2020/09/27 08:59:22

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    #14
    spit051261
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/09/27 14:21:10 (permalink)

    Gaming Rig - Lian Li Dynamic XL, MSI Z490 Godlike, i9 10900k (SP 88)  delidded with Rockit IHS, G-Skill 4266 RAM 2X8 , MSI Z Trio 2080ti, Aorus RGB 360 AIO, EVO 2Tb 970 Plus Nvme,1600watt P2, Acer Predator X27 Monitor, K95 Platinum, G502,G560, ST100 RGB, Void RGB Elite.
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    Chamidorix
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/03 05:22:32 (permalink)
    Thanks guys for giving such great updates on the state of ss and chiller cooling. It seems so bizarre to me how 24/7 sub-ambient fell of the face of the earth so hard, what with TDPs rising so hard every gen recently. The community seems to have hard pivoted to only water-cooling or ln2 as considerations with chiller a niche, ss a super niche, and cascade the giga niche buried at the bottom. 
     
    Anyways, can anyone point to any DIY chiller and/or ss phase cooler guides besides the ones from our illustrious TiN? His are fantastic, of course, but more reference points is always helpful. 
     
     
     
     
    #16
    johnksss
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/04 16:32:41 (permalink)
    SS and Cascade...
    Well, that's because it's really hard to get them fixed when they break. Lots of back and forth was going on at the time as who was legit or who was taking peoples money. So forth and so on. 
    Shipping back and forth was not cheap and is generally up to the customer for back and for shipping. No such thing as warranty and more of a 1 time buy and hope it don't break situation. Not sure about today as I built my own a long long while ago. Bought all the tools to maintain and monitor it along with remove and refill it if need be.
     
    Water cooling is just far easier to work with, but using chillers brings in another factor. Condensation and mysterious parts failures. It only takes 1 drop of water to fall on something electrical and that's all she wrote(Also do not recommend using regular water in your loops either as it will just freeze inside the chiller and your components will start to over heat). And you might take a few minutes to a few hours to find out just what broke. And hope the manufacture will RMA it after user error. So one has to take more than the average care when dealing with sub-zero cooling and parts that can leak on to other parts.

    Quit jumping on examples as if they are topics. A favorite forum mistake.

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    UnusualAttitude
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/04 18:02:32 (permalink)
    This is pretty awesome. I'd love to try to build something with phase change at some point.

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    spit051261
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/08 02:59:38 (permalink)
    As far as chiller goes, I use an exc 800 and I can get temps at the block down to -5 ( maybe colder if I could get ambient lower) but as was said , condendation is bad .
    My phase change was ordered from Eastern Europe
    The phase change is much safer because of hardly any condensation .it just freezes everything. I still have to use vaseline and paper towel but its easier than chiller.
    Phase change gets much colder BTW.
    I can find link if you are interested.

    Gaming Rig - Lian Li Dynamic XL, MSI Z490 Godlike, i9 10900k (SP 88)  delidded with Rockit IHS, G-Skill 4266 RAM 2X8 , MSI Z Trio 2080ti, Aorus RGB 360 AIO, EVO 2Tb 970 Plus Nvme,1600watt P2, Acer Predator X27 Monitor, K95 Platinum, G502,G560, ST100 RGB, Void RGB Elite.
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    #19
    Doomed83
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/09 11:31:21 (permalink)
    If anyone is interested in getting a custom phase unit or chiller built in the USA there is an active custom builder that hangs out on Discord. He goes by the handle "mythical tech" and can be found on the Discord server linked below. The appropriate channel to discuss in is #subzero-overclocking. Feel free to message me if you would like me to make an introduction. My handle is Doomed83#9672
     
    Discord invite: https://discord.gg/sj3dpxJ




    #20
    johnksss
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/09 11:40:54 (permalink)
    Doomed83
    If anyone is interested in getting a custom phase unit or chiller built in the USA there is an active custom builder that hangs out on Discord. He goes by the handle "mythical tech" and can be found on the Discord server linked below. The appropriate channel to discuss in is #subzero-overclocking. Feel free to message me if you would like me to make an introduction. My handle is Doomed83#9672
     
    Discord invite: https://discord.gg/sj3dpxJ


    Where is he located at?

    Quit jumping on examples as if they are topics. A favorite forum mistake.

    #21
    Doomed83
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/09 11:43:49 (permalink)
    johnksss
    Doomed83
    If anyone is interested in getting a custom phase unit or chiller built in the USA there is an active custom builder that hangs out on Discord. He goes by the handle "mythical tech" and can be found on the Discord server linked below. The appropriate channel to discuss in is #subzero-overclocking. Feel free to message me if you would like me to make an introduction. My handle is Doomed83#9672
     
    Discord invite: https://discord.gg/sj3dpxJ


    Where is he located at?



    He is located in the Northeast unfortunately.




    #22
    johnksss
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/09 11:49:12 (permalink)
    Doomed83
    johnksss
    Doomed83
    If anyone is interested in getting a custom phase unit or chiller built in the USA there is an active custom builder that hangs out on Discord. He goes by the handle "mythical tech" and can be found on the Discord server linked below. The appropriate channel to discuss in is #subzero-overclocking. Feel free to message me if you would like me to make an introduction. My handle is Doomed83#9672
     
    Discord invite: https://discord.gg/sj3dpxJ


    Where is he located at?



    He is located in the Northeast unfortunately.


    Unfortunately northeast means nothing to me at the moment, sorry. How about a state maybe?

    Quit jumping on examples as if they are topics. A favorite forum mistake.

    #23
    Doomed83
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/09 12:16:57 (permalink)
    johnksss
    Doomed83
    johnksss
    Doomed83
    If anyone is interested in getting a custom phase unit or chiller built in the USA there is an active custom builder that hangs out on Discord. He goes by the handle "mythical tech" and can be found on the Discord server linked below. The appropriate channel to discuss in is #subzero-overclocking. Feel free to message me if you would like me to make an introduction. My handle is Doomed83#9672
     
    Discord invite: https://discord.gg/sj3dpxJ


    Where is he located at?



    He is located in the Northeast unfortunately.


    Unfortunately northeast means nothing to me at the moment, sorry. How about a state maybe?


    Last I knew he was in Vermont, but I think he might have moved to Virginia.




    #24
    meoxley
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/17 02:46:36 (permalink)
    So unless you want to cover your mobo with spray foam and fill the case with dry erasers, I recommend not going subzero. Yes for maximum overclock that or nitrogen work best, but for daily high overclock, I'd try to stay just above dew point. Aquarium/industrial chillers are great for this. For every 1000btu you can reject around 300w. Also if this is a daily driver be aware you want to 1. Vastly oversize the system, 2. build a multi tank system, or 3 use a 2 chiller system or you will burn out the compressor in short order.

    I like a 3 tank system using pumps and float valves. You run your hot water into an aluminum storage tank with a float switch and if you are really savvy adding a fan based radiator and pump (or several). When the warm water tank gets to a certain height it pumps it into the chiller tank. When the chiller tank hits a set temp, you pump it into an insulated cold storage tank. I'd also add flot sensors to trip the ups to shutdown if the chiller or cold storage tank get too low. This keeps the duty cycle on the compressor low and ensures you never run the system dry.

    Alternatively you can also oversize the compressor and set the threshold for a wide range but this has its won issues.

    Lastly you can use two chillers by linking the tanks and using freeze stats or power timers to alternate the load between the compressors. I'd still recommend a low tank cut off set to trip the ups to shutdown.

    Phase change is awesome, but also can be tricky in certain jurisdictions. I am in the US and have a Universal EPA 608 license so can legally buy and build refrigeration systems but in my experience, running a liquid based chiller to be cheaper and less risky if set above dewpoint.

    If you are worried about water leaks with a chiller there are alternative non conductive fluids that can be used. Just be aware these can have an affect on heat transfer, liquid stability requiring replacement, evaporation or the pump life (like running baby oil).

    I'm not trying to say dont go phase change if you are set on it...it is far superior in subzero cooling and has a smaller footprint...but comes with a lot of board prep that often doent look as cool.

    I tried going subzero to hit 6hz on an i7-8086k. I used plastidip and later liquid electrical tape on the board. I also mounted it upside down so condensation dripped away from the board, but in time it failed

    Since then I stay above dew point for daily operations.

    You need to choose are you trying for a single core at 8ghz to make records, or a daily driver that looks pretty but sits happy at 5.5+. That's the decision only you can make.

    PS I had good experience with lildevil phase change but shipping took forever.

    Now there was one alternative theorized about but never tried
    If I got a hermetically sealed container to run the PC in and only plumb the lines out, it might be possible to run a vaccum in the box to eliminate condensation....or nitrogen purge the system to eliminate water vapor. Again I havnt tried this but I've thought about the "why" condensation occurs a lot and these methods may lead somewhere.
    post edited by meoxley - 2020/10/17 03:01:00
    #25
    Zeddivile
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    Re: phase change and GPUs 2020/10/20 12:52:54 (permalink)
    nice thread and nice pics. 

    "This stuff breaks my tiny often dehydrated and carb deprived hamster brain"
     

     

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