godgxjs
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/22 23:22:05
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godgxjs
Ok, since I was the one who started this thread I'm going to share my current opinions with everyone. My gtx 970 ssc axc 2.0 is coming tomorrow, and I have decided to give Evga the benefit of the doubt. I have always trusted this brand and it has never disappointed me before, and after much reading and deliberation I have decided to trust them again. Putting all the unfair criticism aside (witch hunt), there are few factual points to consider. The evga 970 axc cards are a bit louder and run a bit hotter than the competition. Now I'm not saying that it is because there are defects on the manufacturing or the design of the card. People who say this are just angry that the card didn't turn out to be as good as they wanted it to be, when compared to other brands. This does not mean that the card won't perform as it should or that it will malfunction or break based solely on its design. If that was the case, then it wouldn't have passed Nvidia Greenlight tests. Products that compete with each other have always been different. That's what makes competition possible and good for consumers. If you want the card with the lowest temperatures and the lowest noise then it seems the EVGA 970 isn't for you this time around. But that does not give anyone the right to say that EVGA is bad now or that the card has manufacturing defects, because that is way out of line. The engineers at EVGA decided that the design was good enough and that is why they produced it that way. They aren't always trying to figure out exactly what other brands are going to come out with in order to beat them in every single aspect of the card, because that is not how it works. They design a product, they make it, then they test it extensively, then they send it to Nvidia and they test it as well. They have been doing this for quite a while now, and they must have been doing something right because last time I checked, EVGA is probably the most reliable manufacturer of aftermarket Nvidia GPUs. So if it happens that this time, other manufacturers produced 970s with lower temperatures and noise (by a small margin), then so be it. I congratulate their design team and engineers for achieving that. I, for one, don't blindly look for the card with the lowest temperatures and noise in order to buy it. I look for a good all around product that is backed up by a reliable brand and an excellent customer service. In this case, this happens to be the EVGA gtx 970 ssc acx 2.0. It's the highest end evga model of the 970 available on the market right now (before they ran out of stock). I will be testing the card once I receive it tomorrow afternoon.
And before people start calling me a crazy EVGA fanboy, I assure you I'm not. EVGA is just a brand that has earned my respect and preference over the years, and this time I did my best to analyze the situation as objectively as I could.
This is from a thread I created. I hope it helps.
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wmmills
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/22 23:56:12
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I would say if your that concerned about using all three pipes add a copper base plate to the sink yourself. In fact, I would even think EVGA might do that just to calm the waters,or refund you the cost of the plate if you don't want it. That should probably shut the people up that will say but I paid yada yada dollars for this thing. Now you have a option.
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sahafiec
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 00:11:55
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you seem to miss something, people don't talk about the heat pipes just because they don't have anything else to talk about. it's directly related to the heat dissipation and the noise you get from the fans. my official reply to EVGA'S official reply: if all that is true and the cooler is even oversized for this GPU and TDP. why the hell did you adjust such an aggressive fan curve in the bios causing 30dB noise in idle?  what's customers benefit from this double "oversizing"? 
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seahawkgfx
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 00:24:51
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This is a good question. The 970/980 is the first time I am currently not considering EVGA as the best choice. ASUS and MSI have come up with better cooling solutions, those turning off the fans in idle and remaining silent under load. I would gladly pay good money for a similar EVGA solution.
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Vlada011
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 00:29:05
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EVGA probably test very good temps of GTX970 and design proper cooler for overclocked models. GTX970 almost can work without fans on some reference speed. It's not recommended but I can bet some bigger heatsink can finish job without single fan. To be honest this topic is OK from warn side, but from side of reality words Defect and ACX are impossible to connect. Defect is when small magazine get DCII model and card hit 95C after 2min because heatsink not touch surface
post edited by Vlada011 - 2014/09/23 00:44:28
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sahafiec
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 00:44:13
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Vlada011, the card TPU reviewed is the EVGA GTX 970 SC ACX 4GB running at 1165MHz. so it's running 114MHz over the stock 970 model thus it's an overclocked model. but it uses the above mentioned cooler so I don't really believe there will be any other cooler for the GTX 970's. but you are right, words like "defect" are not correct at all - it's all about design and efficiency compared to the competition.
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/09/23 00:49:15
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Vlada011
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 01:03:01
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If cooler not touch only 1/4 of chip(graphic processors) of such class temps would be closer to 90C instantly 1min after start 3D test.
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MvdL79
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 01:12:21
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EVGA_JacobF
Official reply:
The way the EVGA GTX 970 ACX heat sink was designed is based on the GTX 970 wattage plus an additional 40% cooling headroom on top of it. There are 3 heat pipes on the heatsink – 2 x 8mm major heat pipes to distribute the majority of the heat from the GPU to the heatsink, and a 3rd 6mm heatpipe is used as a supplement to the design to reduce another 2-3 degrees Celsius. Also we would like to mention that the cooler passed NVIDIA Greenlight specifications.
Due to the GPU small die size, we intended for the GPU to contact two major heat pipes with direct touch to make the best heat dissipation without any other material in between.
We all know the Maxwell GPU is an extremely power efficient GPU, our SC cooler was overbuilt for it and allowed us to provide cards with boost clocks at over 1300MHz. EVGA also has an “FTW” version for those users who want even higher clocks.
Regarding fan noise, we understand that some have expressed concerns over the fan noise on the EVGA GTX 970 cards, this is not a fan noise issue but it is more of an aggressive fan curve set by the default BIOS. The fan curve can be easily adjusted in EVGA PrecisionX or any other overclocking software. Regardless, we have heard the concerns and will provide a BIOS update to reduce the fan noise during idle.
Thanks,
EVGA
Wow seems EVGA is getting "cheap" here... Not only did they save money on research for a 'perfect fit'-cooler (and also a noisy one apparently), but they also drop the free backplate for the GTX 9xx series. I am really starting to have my doubts about the 2x EVGA GTX 970 SC ACX cards I ordered. Maybe I should send them straight back. The only reason for me to order them, was because of the free backplate. As it seems now the 2x EVGA GTX 970 cards are a "step-down" compared to the 2x GTX 780 SC ACX which I had (instead of a 'step-up'). And for those who don't / didn't know about the free backplate offer for the GTX 9xx series, check it out here: http://forums.evga.com/FindPost/2220628I hope EVGA is going to make up for this. Other companies, as shown here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1514624/eteknix-possible-design-flaw-in-evga-gtx-970/40#post_22888385, have made excellent fitted coolers. I don't even have my 2x EVGA GTX 970 SC ACX cards, yet I am already kinda disappointed with them and with EVGA. I think EVGA made a big mistake this time... Oh well, lets see what happens from here in regards to the cooler-design, fan noise and the 'disappeared' free backplate.
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f0rtune
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 01:32:45
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Its just too funny reading such complaints about those coolers which seem to be all the same across multiple manufacturers regarding the heatpipes. A small GPU die just offers less space for contact to the material which spread the heat in to the rest of the cooler. (im not talking about noisy fans at all here) I really would like to see those people designing an aftermarket cooler for those cards. Are there any engineers among you? You want full contact to your cooling medium and OC for competition? Get an liquid cooled card, full copper contact to the die, the best cooling you can get. Too me it seems most of the guys here dont even know what it means to work in specifications and how hard they can be to achieve. Working myself as a productmanager for healthcare appliances. As posted earlier... first world problems....
post edited by f0rtune - 2014/09/23 01:36:48
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seahawkgfx
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 01:43:48
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Graphic card are a first world problem in general, but maybe for EVGA it is important to sell cards. MSI has fitted a baseplate to handle the small die, something EVGA did too with the 680/670 Sig2 coolers, which were outstanding btw. Considering the currently sold ACX1 version of the 970 and comparing it to that (Sig2 heatsink):  I feel EVGA got a little cheap lately. And for me noise is the main deciding factor when I am deciding between different brands. And so far all reviews I have seen seem to indicate that EVGA ACX is louder than MSI or ASUS designs (likely also louder than Ino and maybe Pallit).
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yapchagi
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 01:55:02
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that's it. I'm returning 2 GTX 970 ACX back to amazon and get 2x Asus Strix GTX 970. Asus Strix card is cooler and quieter. It's a no brainer.
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Vlada011
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 03:23:01
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Signature 2 cooler is nice, and look nice. I don't understand sometimes moves of manufacturers, I don't talk about EVGA only, same is with ASUS, GIGABYTE special, they sometimes completely ignore to give answer on request of people and cross border between bad support and cheating people. But when producer present something nice as Signature 2 example, people expect to repeat that or improve, not to give solution where amateur can see that previous option is better, all manufacturer, I notice such behavior everywhere... From other side maybe GTX670 - GTX680 produce more heat and need more power consumption. Complains about capacitors and coil whine and chokes on PCB of best graphic cards leave bad taste even if I didn't had such problems with two ACX cards I'm scare of such things. To be honest most of people complain on coil whine with SC or basic models with reference PCB and only ACX Cooler. To be honest I expect always to EVGA use best and most expensive part. Overkill to be specific. I use on that and I want that. If Galaxy can search and choose best available Tantalum capacitors for premium cards or when someone paint their aluminum caps on motherboards or I expect at least from EVGA to picked best and last after confirmed good performance during testing. This thing is little more overblown with this cooler on GTX970 ACX 2.0. I'm sure people will enjoy without problems, but why saving cost on little things and to leave loyal customers with not so nice option as before 2 years is not good. I understand everything, people get really nice card for 350$, for 620e you can beat R9-290X CF almost with 2xGTX970 Superclocked ACX 2.0 in Europe. That's everything OK, but you can't save cost on such way.
post edited by Vlada011 - 2014/09/23 03:30:11
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Stephenk291
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 04:35:39
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yapchagi
that's it. I'm returning 2 GTX 970 ACX back to amazon and get 2x Asus Strix GTX 970. Asus Strix card is cooler and quieter. It's a no brainer.
I don't get why everyone is jumping ship, like you're going to be able to tell the difference between lets say 25DBA and 35DBA. It's not like computers sound like jet engines. Why don't you wait until you actually get the cards to see if there is even anything wrong with the temps/noise? The witch hunt over this cooler is amazing. Again the word DEFECT was a massive over reach on the part of many people about this cooler. While it might seem like they cut some corners..if its not truly causing a problem why jump ship so easily?
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godgxjs
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 05:09:39
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Stephenk291
yapchagi
that's it. I'm returning 2 GTX 970 ACX back to amazon and get 2x Asus Strix GTX 970. Asus Strix card is cooler and quieter. It's a no brainer.
I don't get why everyone is jumping ship, like you're going to be able to tell the difference between lets say 25DBA and 35DBA. It's not like computers sound like jet engines. Why don't you wait until you actually get the cards to see if there is even anything wrong with the temps/noise? The witch hunt over this cooler is amazing. Again the word DEFECT was a massive over reach on the part of many people about this cooler. While it might seem like they cut some corners..if its not truly causing a problem why jump ship so easily?
I completely agree.
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Stephenk291
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 05:11:36
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Asus also has the worst tech support and warranty process that I've ever dealt with. After dealing with the same issue with two Maximus Gene VI/VII boards and being told to ''make a youtube video'' to explain my issue further, I've pretty much wrote ASUS off. For me I'll give EVGA the benefit of the doubt because I'd rather deal with a company that is state side, responsive, and very active in trying to deal with customer issues.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 05:12:26
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Marcin79
Vlada011
EVGA should make same as 780.
I always hate CPU Coolers without flat surface.
780 cost 650$ at launch. GTX 970 300 bucks.
Vlada's post was only talking about the cooler, not the pricing or the GPU itself. The 750ti even had a flat surface like this. I think EVGA should possibly have stuck with this idea. Seeing how most aftermarket ACX coolers were a cheap price ($39.99 USD), they should have looked at this option. ACX from the 780 Series  750Ti 
post edited by Scarlet-Tech - 2014/09/23 05:15:33
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sahafiec
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 05:14:48
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f0rtune
Its just too funny reading such complaints about those coolers which seem to be all the same across multiple manufacturers regarding the heatpipes. A small GPU die just offers less space for contact to the material which spread the heat in to the rest of the cooler. (im not talking about noisy fans at all here)
I really would like to see those people designing an aftermarket cooler for those cards. Are there any engineers among you?
You want full contact to your cooling medium and OC for competition? Get an liquid cooled card, full copper contact to the die, the best cooling you can get.
Too me it seems most of the guys here dont even know what it means to work in specifications and how hard they can be to achieve. Working myself as a productmanager for healthcare appliances.
As posted earlier... first world problems....
well...if you as a product manager ignore customer concerns, no matter which industrial sector you work at, sorry I would never hire you to work for me. I'm looking back at many years of R&D on hardware as well as software, so yes I know very well what obeying contract and functional specifications means. besides I know as well what it means to ignore customer concerns, that's the best way to loose customer. right? here a very simple and already known solution as an idea, heat pipes touching each other. 
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/09/23 05:17:25
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Wreck3r
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 05:20:55
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I don't understand the sheep like behavior from people that supposedly know their hardware. Why not start by reading the entire topic to see that there aren't any physical solutions to cram in more heatpipes than the 2 large ones that already make contact with the IHS. Consider the 3rd one a bonus that help pull heat from the vicinity of the GPU. And if you don't like asymmetry just don't dismantle the cooler and enjoy the temps.
As for the fans, they are not the subject of this topic...
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MvdL79
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 06:28:03
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Sorry for my ignorance here, but would placing a copper shim between the GPU and the cooler help for dispersing the heat better?
So in this order: GPU > paste/tim > copper shim > paste/tim > cooler
Would it help for better connectivity? And what dimension should the copper shim be? I am guessing around 25x25mm right for a perfect fit (and ofcourse not to thick).
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feelsbadman
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 06:52:27
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 How do you explain that, there is even a bigger enlarged picture out there they took it shows that 3rd heat pipe clamped/bent off and even in the pic above you can see the the hole like it was clamped off with needle nose pliers or something. This is like Pee-Wee herman saying "I ment to do that" after falling off his bicycle.
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sahafiec
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 06:53:25
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it's all about the placement and thus the design of the cooler. here is the solution from Asus, now can someone tell me 1 single reason why EVGA shouldn't do it as well?! it's not the GPU being too small it's just the pipes placed not good enough to cover the whole GPU.  @feelsbadmanit's the same situation like on the current ACX cooler, here my GTX 760 SC 4GB ACX. that's really ... no words. 
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/09/23 07:18:34
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MvdL79
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 07:22:03
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Man, seeing those pics (above) makes my stomache turn around. Starts to look like the crap stuff you order from Alibaba (generally).
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Stephenk291
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 07:24:20
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If it was on your 760 SC did you have temp/noise/ any problems whatsoever related to the cooler?
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bcavnaugh
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 07:31:38
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MvdL79
Sorry for my ignorance here, but would placing a copper shim between the GPU and the cooler help for dispersing the heat better?
So in this order: GPU > paste/tim > copper shim > paste/tim > cooler
Would it help for better connectivity? And what dimension should the copper shim be? I am guessing around 25x25mm right for a perfect fit (and ofcourse not to thick).
I said the same in another Post. http://forums.evga.com/FindPost/2220500 I am waiting for the Thermal Engineers in this thread that are saying what is so wrong with this setup, but then none of the posters are Thermal Engineers! This is great tool that you can use for a Thermal Engineer Thermal Desktop - C&R Technologies this what we use plus Thermal Simulation Using FloTHERM CFD Software a Mentor Graphics product.
post edited by bcavnaugh - 2014/09/23 07:50:23
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clo007
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 07:52:37
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Stephenk291
yapchagi
that's it. I'm returning 2 GTX 970 ACX back to amazon and get 2x Asus Strix GTX 970. Asus Strix card is cooler and quieter. It's a no brainer.
I don't get why everyone is jumping ship, like you're going to be able to tell the difference between lets say 25DBA and 35DBA. It's not like computers sound like jet engines. Why don't you wait until you actually get the cards to see if there is even anything wrong with the temps/noise? The witch hunt over this cooler is amazing. Again the word DEFECT was a massive over reach on the part of many people about this cooler. While it might seem like they cut some corners..if its not truly causing a problem why jump ship so easily?
Actually, psychologically, the human ear interprets a 10dBA increase as double the noise, even though it really is not double. i personally don't care about noise with my PC. I have 4 252cfm fans running in it now. Let's just say, it is not quiet!
post edited by clo007 - 2014/09/23 07:56:29
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sahafiec
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 07:52:37
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Stephenk291
If it was on your 760 SC did you have temp/noise/ any problems whatsoever related to the cooler?
the cooler is still on my GTX 760 and after I reapplied the TIM running as good as it can, the card is 6 month old. I love the card and I'm happy with it but with a better heat pipe alignment it could run even cooler and make even less noise. so why the hell not? @MvdL79 & bcavnaughyou don't have to be a thermal engineer to find out why not "GPU > paste/tim > copper shim > paste/tim > cooler". the tim is just used to minimize air between the metal surfaces, which are almost never perfectly flat. tim conducts better than air but much worse than the metal itself, you need the shortest way from metal to metal. so why more additional tim surfaces in between, it would make no sense?!
post edited by sahafiec - 2014/09/23 08:19:52
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bcavnaugh
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 08:08:45
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sahafiec
@MvdL79 & bcavnaugh
you don't have to be a thermal engineer to find out why "GPU > paste/tim > copper shim > paste/tim > cooler".
the tim is just used to minimize air between the metal surfaces, which are almost never perfectly flat.
tim conducts better than air but much worse than the metal itself, you need the shortest way from metal to metal.
so why more additional tim surfaces in between, it would make no sense?!
Copper Shims believe it or not but a lot of Laptops use them as do other devices. Even liquid metal and even kits like from Enerdyne Solutions or Indigo XS™ I am not an Thermal Engineer but I do work with them.
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Stephenk291
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 08:08:57
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sahafiec
Stephenk291
If it was on your 760 SC did you have temp/noise/ any problems whatsoever related to the cooler?
the cooler is still on my GTX 760 and after I reapplied the TIM running as good as it can, the card is 6 month old.
I love the card and I'm happy with it but with a better heat pipe alignment it could run even cooler and make even less noise.
so why the hell not?
@MvdL79 & bcavnaugh
you don't have to be a thermal engineer to find out why "GPU > paste/tim > copper shim > paste/tim > cooler".
the tim is just used to minimize air between the metal surfaces, which are almost never perfectly flat.
tim conducts better than air but much worse than the metal itself, you need the shortest way from metal to metal.
so why more additional tim surfaces in between, it would make no sense?!
[font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; background-color: #f7f7f7"]
oh I agree, if the design can be improved then they should certainly do so. My issue is that people are throwing around the word defect and jumping to conclusions. Not being optimized to its full potential is different than being defective.
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haris525
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 08:13:04
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Hmm, lol. Honestly this is what I think. If you have a problem with EVGA design buy a different card, I have done so in the past, I like EVGA but it something doesn't work for you, replace it with something you like.
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subyman
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Re: evga acx cooler defect? eteknix.com thinks so.
2014/09/23 09:07:37
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I'm not quite understanding why people are defending EVGA. It boils down to EVGA having the poorest card this time around for a number of reasons. People that say its only 3-5C difference or its only a few dB or you need to be a thermal engineer to have an opinion are totally missing the point. Temp and noise are very important metrics and if they are noticeably worse than the competition then why buy the EVGA card? Personally, I bought the EVGA card because I bought on launch and have always had a good experience with EVGA. I thought they were the no-brainer to get, but the amount of issues piling up is getting quite high. I'll recap: - EVGA swapped out Nvidia reference VRMs with cheaper alternatives while other companies upgraded them
- It wasn't communicated well that the first batch of coolers would be ACX 1.0 on Amazon
- EVGA has stepped away from the backplate offer even though they ran an advertisement on the website and review sites said an EVGA rep told them a backplate would be included.
- The small, third heat pipe seems to not be functional (as in it is not capped)
- The noise, especially at idle, is noticeably higher than the competition
- The temperatures are the highest tested
- The cooler was not specifically designed, from the ground up, for the card unlike the other manufacturers that made custom coolers.
It isn't just one or two things. Its the cumulative effect of these issues. I was fine with the VRMs at first, but after piling up the other issues, its hard not to return it and wait for a Gigabyte or MSI to come in stock. For those that say "its fine" or "its enough to cool the 970", sure it maybe "enough", but I don't expect EVGA to only make passable cards. Why buy a passable card for the same price as a well engineered card?
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