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Hot!X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE Slot speed misdetection - 4x Only

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oriddlero
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2021/08/18 18:55:38 (permalink)
It's been a while since I posted but I'm playing around with my trusty rig a bit, and I'm toying with the idea of adding an additional M.2 drive (or more in RAID0).
 
I run a X 58 3-way classified motherboard with a Xeon @ 4.4ghz, 24 gigs of RAM, 3090 founders edition, 24 gigs of RAM 950Pro M.2 for OS.  This MB has been though allot: 5 gens of GPU (1x970, 2x970SLI, 1080TI, 2080TI 3090FE), 3 CPUs, 2 power supplies, several water cooling loop revisions... It will be a sad day when I retire it.  I'll probably run it for another year or so.   
 
My primary boot drive is a 950 Pro M.2.  I'm looking to add another M.2 drive.  I have always run my 950 Pro on a China special PCIE card but I recently acquired a ASUS HYPER M.2 X16 V2 PCIe 3.0 Card HYPER M.2 X16 CARD (4x M.2) for free.  I haven't received my additional M.2 I ordered yet (Samsung 970 EVO Plus) but I suspect that this motherboard does not support bifurcation (anyone know of a hacked bios) and therefore wont be seeing anything other than the first drive on the card.
 
Anyhow, worst case scenario I can probably just use my other China special PCI e-card and install my second M.2 and a second slot, however, my real issue that I just realized is that even though my PC E M.2 cards are X16 they seem to only be running at X4 capping my band with two around 1500MBs.  My graphics card is installed in the first slot and I have tried the other 2X 16 slots (3 and 4) and still Samsung magician reports them as running in x4 mode (hence my BW cap of 1500)  
 
Am I doing something wrong here? Why are my x16 cards detected at X4?  The 3090FE runs @ X16 just fine.  I'm thinking of buying a Highpoint Technologies Ssd7101A-1 4X M.2 Pcie 3.0X16 Nvme Raid if i can find one used for around $200 and running 3x RAID0 M.2s (just for fun since it does not have the bifurcation limitation)  but if the mobo picks it up as x4 it defeats the purpose. 
 
Thanks for any ideas.
 

 

post edited by oriddlero - 2021/08/19 12:32:28
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    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/18 21:42:58 (permalink)
    Okay, after going down a rabbit hole since I posted this I've come to the following conclusions:
     
    • Even if I buy an expensive m.2 pcie raid card that does its own bifurcation, boots my 950pro, and lets me setup 3x raid0 I would still be screwed with X4X4X4X4 @ PCIE 2.0 speeds.  Since x4 PCIe 2.0 speed is capped around 1500MBs there would be no speed gains to be had, so raid 0 would be pointless.
    • I think ill just sell this Asus card I got for free and go with 2 separate x16 China Riser Cards, they are only $9 each, I have 2 free x16 slots, and they seem to have the same performance in this board as the more expensive cards I have tried - https://www.ebay.com/itm/274709694757
    The only think that is REALLY still bugging me is that the X16 SINGLE card riser is also detected as x4 in Samsun Magician... In every slot. I even tried moving the GPU from slot one to test the slot i know 100% is working @ x16.  Even if I could get these solo riser cards to work at 8x I would be happy.  
     
    Tested (in all slots):
     
    1. China Riser Card (16x) - Detected as 4x
    2. Supermicro AOC-SLG3-2M2 PCIe (8x)  - Detected as 4x
    3. ASUS HYPER M.2 X16 V2 PCIe 3.0 Card HYPER M.2 X16 CARDV2 (16x)  - Detected as 4x
     

     
    Any ideas?
    post edited by oriddlero - 2021/08/19 12:10:08
    #2
    KenMcC
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/19 14:36:59 (permalink)
    my m.2 samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB 
    says 3X4 
    the READ=3376 and WRITE=3172  IOPS=274658 & 216308 
     
    I assume that mean 3 lanes of 4 Something MB / GB ? 

    KenMcC
    Z170 Classy K; i7-6700 CPU,
    Corsair CMK16GX4M2A2400C14
    Seasonic SSR-360GP 360W;
    Samsung 950 Pro M.2 256 GB 
    Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB SATA
    Samsung 850 Evo 256 GB SATA
    Samsung SSD 840 Series 250 GB SATA
     
    Samsung 860 EVO 1 TB SATA
    Windows 10 x64 Prof.  
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    DEJ915
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/19 15:09:56 (permalink)
    No matter what you do each drive will only run at pcie 2.0 x4 speeds even if you get a card with a pcie switch on it since it'll run at pcie 2.0 and each drive will only run at its speed it doesn't magically get upgraded to more lanes.  Only way around it would be to get an nvme raid card which you'd be better just buying a new board and cpu with how much those cost.
     
    Also yeah those boards don't support bifurcation, the slots are all through the nvidia chips.
    post edited by DEJ915 - 2021/08/19 15:12:39
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    rjohnson11
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/20 06:45:27 (permalink)
    KenMcC
    my m.2 samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB 
    says 3X4 
    the READ=3376 and WRITE=3172  IOPS=274658 & 216308 
     
    I assume that mean 3 lanes of 4 Something MB / GB ? 


    For that old X58 motherboard that is actually an excellent read/write speed. 

    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X,  Corsair Mp600 Pro M.2 2TB, 128GB DDR4  Crosshair VIII Hero, Asus RX 6900 XT Associate Code: H5U80QBH6BH0AXF

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    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/20 06:48:28 (permalink)
    DEJ915
    Only way around it would be to get an nvme raid card which you'd be better just buying a new board and cpu with how much those cost.
     Also yeah those boards don't support bifurcation, the slots are all through the nvidia chips.



    I'm Strongly considering buying one of these (NVME RAID) - https://highpoint-tech.com/USA_new/series-ssd7101a-1-overview.htm  to test. I'll just return it if the results are the same.  If it works, I'm willing to pay around $200 for a used one (I'll just sell it when i upgrade my rig). 
     
    Do you think it will work @ x8 or x16?
     
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    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/20 06:51:39 (permalink)
    KenMcC
    my m.2 samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB 
    says 3X4 
    the READ=3376 and WRITE=3172  IOPS=274658 & 216308 
    I assume that mean 3 lanes of 4 Something MB / GB ? 



    That's all I want... My read speeds are stuck @ ~1500, even on my 970 EVO Plus 500GB.  What motherboard/slot/config/riser card?  Did you do anything special?  My Samsung Magician says "2x4" I thought "2" meant PCIe2.0.  Are you on a MB with Pcie3?
     
     
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    DEJ915
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/20 13:02:56 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    DEJ915
    Only way around it would be to get an nvme raid card which you'd be better just buying a new board and cpu with how much those cost.
     Also yeah those boards don't support bifurcation, the slots are all through the nvidia chips.



    I'm Strongly considering buying one of these (NVME RAID) - https://highpoint-tech.com/USA_new/series-ssd7101a-1-overview.htm  to test. I'll just return it if the results are the same.  If it works, I'm willing to pay around $200 for a used one (I'll just sell it when i upgrade my rig). 
     
    Do you think it will work @ x8 or x16?
     


    You would have to ask them how it would perform on a pcie 2.0 system as it only mentions pcie 3.0
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    SuperConker
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/21 18:42:11 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    Okay, after going down a rabbit hole since I posted this I've come to the following conclusions:
     
    • Even if I buy an expensive m.2 pcie raid card that does its own bifurcation, boots my 950pro, and lets me setup 3x raid0 I would still be screwed with X4X4X4X4 @ PCIE 2.0 speeds.  Since x4 PCIe 2.0 speed is capped around 1500MBs there would be no speed gains to be had, so raid 0 would be pointless.
    • I think ill just sell this Asus card I got for free and go with 2 separate x16 China Riser Cards, they are only $9 each, I have 2 free x16 slots, and they seem to have the same performance in this board as the more expensive cards I have tried - https://www.ebay.com/itm/274709694757
    The only think that is REALLY still bugging me is that the X16 SINGLE card riser is also detected as x4 in Samsun Magician... In every slot. I even tried moving the GPU from slot one to test the slot i know 100% is working @ x16.  Even if I could get these solo riser cards to work at 8x I would be happy.  
     
    Tested (in all slots):
     
    1. China Riser Card (16x) - Detected as 4x
    2. Supermicro AOC-SLG3-2M2 PCIe (8x)  - Detected as 4x
    3. ASUS HYPER M.2 X16 V2 PCIe 3.0 Card HYPER M.2 X16 CARDV2 (16x)  - Detected as 4x
     

     
    Any ideas?




    It's not really the Cards or the Riser-card themselves that is detected as 4x, 
    It's the Samsung 950 PRO that is limited to 4x (by design).
     
    No matter what motherboard you put it in, it will only run at 4x speed,
    all NVMe SSD's are designed this way.
     
    Even PCIe NVMe drives (like Intel's Optane drives) are limited to 4x speed.
    post edited by SuperConker - 2021/08/21 20:31:10


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    DEJ915
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/21 18:53:35 (permalink)
    Those cards are designed for bifurcation so they don't work as an x16 or x8 card, it's 4 x4 or 2 x4 cards in 1.  I have the asus one and have used it on and off with my X299 and C621 rigs where it works fine with bifurcation enabled (4x4).  Also like SuperConker said, the drives themselves will never run faster than x4 speed, x4 is always x4 no matter if 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0, a 4.0 x4 card can't run at 3.0 x8 which is the same speed, it's missing the required wiring for x8.
    post edited by DEJ915 - 2021/08/21 18:55:52
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    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/23 12:03:20 (permalink)
    So what you guys are saying is ALL m.2 drives are 4x and it's the PCIe V2 on my X58 that is my bottleneck? "KenMcC" above who says he is getting 3300 R/W must be on a MB with PCI V3? 
     
    My 970 EVO plus is also capped @ 4x ~1500 R/W (so it's not just the 950 pro)
     
    post edited by oriddlero - 2021/08/23 12:06:05
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    rjohnson11
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/23 12:11:11 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    So what you guys are saying is ALL m.2 drives are 4x and it's the PCIe V2 on my X58 that is my bottleneck? "KenMcC" above who says he is getting 3300 R/W must be on a MB with PCI V3? 
     
    My 970 EVO plus is also capped @ 4x ~1500 R/W (so it's not just the 950 pro)
     


    His forum signature says he has a Z170 motherboard. You are on an older platform. 

    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X,  Corsair Mp600 Pro M.2 2TB, 128GB DDR4  Crosshair VIII Hero, Asus RX 6900 XT Associate Code: H5U80QBH6BH0AXF

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    SuperConker
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/23 20:00:16 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    So what you guys are saying is ALL m.2 drives are 4x and it's the PCIe V2 on my X58 that is my bottleneck? "KenMcC" above who says he is getting 3300 R/W must be on a MB with PCI V3? 
     
    My 970 EVO plus is also capped @ 4x ~1500 R/W (so it's not just the 950 pro)


    Yes, it is the X58 Motherboard that is the bottleneck here.
     
    1500 MB/s Read and Write is pretty much the maximum for PCIe 2.0 (at 4x) on a X58 Motherboard.
     
     
    KenMcC appears to have a Z170 Motherboard (which has PCIe 3.0).
    So that is why he gets 3300 MB/s on the Read and Write.
    post edited by SuperConker - 2021/08/23 20:01:20


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    ZoranC
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/24 10:10:07 (permalink)
    If you care that much about performance figures to be spending that much time and money your goal would be much better served by you stepping up to completely new motherboard with PCIe 4.0.
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    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/25 10:07:44 (permalink)
    ZoranC
    If you care that much about performance figures to be spending that much time and money your goal would be much better served by you stepping up to completely new motherboard with PCIe 4.0.



    I plan on it.  I just love my X58, and considering when paired with the 3090FE and Xeon @ 4.4 w/ GSYNC on my LG77OLED it runs any game I throw at it to my satisfaction (currently playing doom @ 4k/120/Max Settings).  Video editing in Adobe Premier and graphics work is all smooth.  I enjoy spending money on hardware pushing the x58 to its limits to keep it alive.
     
    Paying for a new system is not my problem, I have been waiting for the right platform to pull the trigger.  When i build a new system I want it to keep me happy for 5 years: Intel, PCIe4, and none of the big core/little core (Atom) BS with (Alder Lake).  I have been tempted over the last year to build a Core i9-11900K / Maximus XIII Hero Rig (W/ Intel PCIe4), but I get the feeling Ill want to rebuild again in ~2 years.  Unless some software or game I want to play comes out that I can't run well on my x58, waiting for the 7nm Meteor Lake CPU might be the ticket for me.
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    ZoranC
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/25 12:05:42 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    ,I just love my X58, ...

     
    I understand. All I'm trying to say is that if bandwidth is your goal X58 is your bottleneck.
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    rjohnson11
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/25 12:20:48 (permalink)
    ZoranC
    oriddlero
    ,I just love my X58, ...

     
    I understand. All I'm trying to say is that if bandwidth is your goal X58 is your bottleneck.


    +1

    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X,  Corsair Mp600 Pro M.2 2TB, 128GB DDR4  Crosshair VIII Hero, Asus RX 6900 XT Associate Code: H5U80QBH6BH0AXF

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    SuperConker
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/25 19:01:18 (permalink)
    But having around ~1500 MB/s Read/Write speeds on a X58 system is by no means bad.
     
    Normally you'd be using SATA-drives on it, and those would be limited to SATA-II (3Gb/s) speeds
    (which tops out at around ~285 MB/s Read and Write).
     
    So you pretty much got the best of the best right now, as for a X58 system goes
    (6-core Xeon at 4.4 Ghz / 24GB Ram / 512 GB NVMe SSD / RTX 3090).
     
    post edited by SuperConker - 2021/08/25 19:04:51


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    Robbanswe
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/30 12:33:58 (permalink)
    Better peformance with 6-8 ssd in raid 0 with a old 8x raidcontroller than a nvme in a 2.0 system.

    2x EVGA SR-2 with X5690, 48/96GB RAM.
    1x intel Platinum 48core system with 9GPUS, 192GB ram all cpus\gpus watercooled 
    2x minor Threadripper builds with 48GB ram,nvme raid.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    #19
    oriddlero
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/30 21:08:24 (permalink)
    SuperConker
    So you pretty much got the best of the best right now, as for a X58 system goes
    (6-core Xeon at 4.4 Ghz / 24GB Ram / 512 GB NVMe SSD / RTX 3090).
     


    Yeah... I gave up trying to get anything more than 4x lol. 
     
    To expand Storage I just got another 500GB m.2 and a second $8 riser for it... 2 risers, 2 500GB m.2 drives = 1TB of m.2. @ ~1500/1500   Hmm that just gave me an idea actually:
     
    What if i got two, 500GB 950 Pros, could they be setup as a bootable RAID0 in the BIOS or does that only work with SATA drives on this board?  If the raid 0 worked I could maybe get ~3000/3000 since each drive would have its own 4x slot/set of pipes.
     
     
    #20
    ZoranC
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/30 21:22:23 (permalink)
    oriddlero
    What if i got two, 500GB 950 Pros, could they be setup as a bootable RAID0 in the BIOS or does that only work with SATA drives on this board?  If the raid 0 worked I could maybe get ~3000/3000 since each drive would have its own 4x slot/set of pipes.

     
    Even if you managed to RAID them RAID doesn't scale like that (there are plenty of articles/posts around that will show you what I mean by that). Also, by RAIDing them you would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, handling of RAID operations would be inducing overhead on your CPU.
     
    I'm afraid you have reached a point of no further returns, no matter how much effort and money you spend X58 will be your limitation.
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    SuperConker
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/08/31 19:21:42 (permalink)
    Any M.2 drive should work fine for storage (NVMe drives that are newer than the "Samsung 950 PRO" will not be bootable).
     
    This means you could install something like a 2TB "Samsung 970 EVO Plus" (as a storage-drive)
    and still have speeds that are much faster than any SATA SSD.


    #22
    rjohnson11
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    Re: X58 - Multiple M.2 and PCIE speed misdetection 2021/09/01 05:33:38 (permalink)
    Of course for speed then the suggestion from the other forums members about upgrading is the best way. You need to decide if you want to go with AMD or Intel. Or wait for Intel's next gen release at the end of this year or AMD's next gen next year. 

    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X,  Corsair Mp600 Pro M.2 2TB, 128GB DDR4  Crosshair VIII Hero, Asus RX 6900 XT Associate Code: H5U80QBH6BH0AXF

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