EVGA

The Pascal Problem

Author
Sajin
EVGA Forum Moderator
  • Total Posts : 49164
  • Reward points : 0
  • Joined: 2010/06/07 21:11:51
  • Location: Texas, USA.
  • Status: offline
  • Ribbons : 199
2017/05/30 10:41:53 (permalink)
Very interesting video. Thought I would share it with others.
 

 
 
#1

21 Replies Related Threads

    HeavyHemi
    Insert Custom Title Here
    • Total Posts : 15665
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2008/11/28 20:31:42
    • Location: Western Washington
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 135
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 10:53:27 (permalink)
    Could you give a synopsis of what the *problem* is since you did title your post as if there is a 'problem'. I tried to watch but too much er babbling throughout to make any sense of it.

    EVGA X99 FTWK / i7 6850K @ 4.5ghz / RTX 3080Ti FTW Ultra / 32GB Corsair LPX 3600mhz / Samsung 850Pro 256GB / Be Quiet BN516 Straight Power 12-1000w 80 Plus Platinum / Window 10 Pro
     
    #2
    HellxxxJumper
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 15
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2015/11/07 18:53:11
    • Location: Canada
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 11:29:01 (permalink)
    Great vid, I found his theories to be rather interesting, especially the one about Nvidia controlling the shader count (Lowering the count if it can to save on power). I don't know much about overclocking a GPU, but I was surprised that he got worse overclocking results when he applied more voltage.
    #3
    the_Scarlet_one
    formerly Scarlet-tech
    • Total Posts : 24581
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2013/11/13 02:48:57
    • Location: East Coast
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 79
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 11:33:54 (permalink)
    I typically get almost the same results no matter what I do. This is the worst overclocking scores I have ever seen.
    #4
    placeboblack
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 15
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2010/11/11 14:13:34
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 11:38:54 (permalink)
    HeavyHemi
    Could you give a synopsis of what the *problem* is since you did title your post as if there is a 'problem'. I tried to watch but too much er babbling throughout to make any sense of it.




    TL:DW
     
    He hypothesizes that there is an architecture design that regulates voltage behind the scenes and despite the cards being OC'd, there is better performance with lower clocks (or if you heavily mod your card for voltage control as he did, more voltage and lower clocks).
     
    TL:DR
     
    He says its a poor architecture to OC.
    #5
    Bobmitch
    Omnipotent Enthusiast
    • Total Posts : 8327
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2007/05/07 09:36:29
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 47
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 11:48:30 (permalink)
    When I play with overclocking my 1080 TI and even my 1080 SC, I noticed a very low ceiling on where the card would just max out and head south.  On my 1080 TI, it will go as far as 2050 whether overclocked +140/+150/+160, etc.  The harder I push it the lower the scores become.  I found the sweet spot at +145 and my card will max at 2066.  On my older 1080SC, I was seeing a roll off at 2088.  I always set the power limit and temp target to the max, even when not overclocking and find more stable fps, etc.   What would be interesting is if either EVGA or Unwinder could build in a core counter into the monitoring of the software.  That might answer a few questions.

    MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk;  Ryzen 9 5950X; Asus TUF RTX 4070 TI OC; Corsair H115i Pro; 32 GB  Crucial Ballistix Elite DDR4-3600; Western Digital Black 4 TB SN850X NVMe; Creative SoundBlaster Z; Corsair HX 850i;  Lian Li Lancool II;  EVGA Z15
    RGB Keyboard; and Razer Viper 8K Mouse
    Heatware:  http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=72402    Affiliate code: 1L2RV0BNQ6                                          
    Associate Code:  UD82LJP3Y1FIQPR
     


    #6
    redleader00
    SSC Member
    • Total Posts : 906
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2009/03/26 11:02:11
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 7
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 12:08:13 (permalink)
    Sajin
    Very interesting video. Thought I would share it with others.
     

     



    Interesting. Thanks!



     
     
    #7
    DukeCLR
    iCX Member
    • Total Posts : 254
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2007/01/07 06:04:28
    • Location: All over.
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 1
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 12:14:22 (permalink)
    Great video, the more I learn about overclocking this thing the it reminds me how the controls in the Airbus work as opposed to a Boeing, you move the stick and the computer moves the controls, sliding all the setting around this card yields similar results. 

    PhanTeks Enthoo Evolv TGE
    Intel Core i7 8700k @ 5.0
    EVGA Z390 FTW
    EVGA GTX 3080 FTW3
    GSkill Ripjaws 16Gb
    EVGA CLC280
    PSU EVGA 850 T2


     
    #8
    Nozler
    CLASSIFIED Member
    • Total Posts : 2043
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2009/10/28 10:51:49
    • Location: Ottertail county,Minnesota,USA
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 1
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 13:53:10 (permalink)
    TY for sharing. Altho he was rambling a bit,
    will have to try a new technique for my overclocks on Pascal
    I might just squeeze out a bit more

    heatware
     
    #9
    the_Scarlet_one
    formerly Scarlet-tech
    • Total Posts : 24581
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2013/11/13 02:48:57
    • Location: East Coast
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 79
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 14:37:16 (permalink)
    HeavyHemi
    Could you give a synopsis of what the *problem* is since you did title your post as if there is a 'problem'. I tried to watch but too much er babbling throughout to make any sense of it.


    The title of the video is "The Pasal Problem" and the title is a quote as such. Basically, Sajin didnt title the post, he shared the title of the video.
    #10
    HeavyHemi
    Insert Custom Title Here
    • Total Posts : 15665
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2008/11/28 20:31:42
    • Location: Western Washington
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 135
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 16:10:12 (permalink)
    Okay, the *problem* with this video is we don't know exactly what he's modified. He says he's using caps. But where (besides saying on the 'GPU core') and for what effect? He's not actually measuring the GPU vcore. Applying this to a stock Pascal seems a bit nebulous.  Beyond that,  I think we've become somewhat accustomed to the idiosyncrasies ... ie pretty much every 1080 Ti tops out at 2100 regardless of what you set the GPU core at. For example, running Superposition, when I set the core between +170 and +200, the clocks appear the same, topping out at 2100mhz and the score is nearly identical...if not just a few points lower at the higher offset. This is somewhat predictable as these cards hit the power limit fairly easily at these offsets. I've blasted up to +600 on the memory, but +500 seems to be the sweet spot for benching for me. Higher, results in more power draw from the memory and hitting the power limit more frequently reducing performance.

    EVGA X99 FTWK / i7 6850K @ 4.5ghz / RTX 3080Ti FTW Ultra / 32GB Corsair LPX 3600mhz / Samsung 850Pro 256GB / Be Quiet BN516 Straight Power 12-1000w 80 Plus Platinum / Window 10 Pro
     
    #11
    the_Scarlet_one
    formerly Scarlet-tech
    • Total Posts : 24581
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2013/11/13 02:48:57
    • Location: East Coast
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 79
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 16:30:54 (permalink)
    He states that he has modified it in the past and was testing it at the beginning of the video. My guess is, he has other videos that you can watch and see what he modifies, since he is one of the most referenced people in the videos from Gamer Nexus and such, as they talk about where to solder on caps and where the mods need to be placed to get control of the voltage.  I wouldn't want another hour of video attached to this one to explain what is available in other videos.  30 minutes is plenty, especially when he is running live benchmark on the card and trying to figure out what is causing the clock fluctuation.  
     
    I would think that this would require a custom bios to get around anything NVidia has done, and since the test is done with just the voltage modification, then the stock bios wouldn't allow users to do much after voiding their warranty.
     
    Also, removed the second post.  I found that the only time it double posts is when it doesn't register the first submission, and then you click it again and then it doubles. 
     
     
    PCB breakdown of the card he uses in "The Pascal Problem"  I don't think he modifies it in this video, just talks about the PCB.

    post edited by Scarlet-Tech - 2017/05/30 16:37:06
    #12
    bcavnaugh
    The Crunchinator
    • Total Posts : 38977
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/09/18 17:31:18
    • Location: USA Affiliate E5L3CTGE12 Associate 9E88QK5L7811G3H
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 282
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 16:36:40 (permalink)
    Also Time Spy 1 is no brainer and most runs complete but Time Spy 2 is where I see most of the crashes.

    Associate Code: 9E88QK5L7811G3H


     
    #13
    mike406
    SSC Member
    • Total Posts : 904
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2015/02/21 18:17:33
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 13
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 18:58:32 (permalink)
    His hair makes it hard for me to take him seriously.

           Associate Code: 6KIMUJ06W8WFDR5 (5-10% off your purchase)              




    #14
    rshwayder
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 90
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2003/07/27 17:28:03
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 19:58:29 (permalink)
    The Pascal Problem is that Nvidia is getting better at maxing out their video cards out of the box.

    Before Boost 3.0, we'd be going nuts about getting 500MHz extra on the core. The cards do most of the OCing for us now, so we complain when we only get a few more bins beyond stock.
    #15
    mike406
    SSC Member
    • Total Posts : 904
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2015/02/21 18:17:33
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 13
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 20:03:03 (permalink)
    Way too much rambling in his video...So if I'm getting this right, just don't undervolt the GPU and you should be fine? What's the problem then? Is it not apparent that dropping the voltage to 0.6V would obviously cause the card to pull some tricks behind the scenes to keep itself from crashing from lack of power? It seems completely obvious to me that the performance at 0.6V regardless of core clock would be worse than at stock or higher voltage...So I fail to see the issue he's pointing out.

           Associate Code: 6KIMUJ06W8WFDR5 (5-10% off your purchase)              




    #16
    atanri01
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 97
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2017/05/30 17:18:24
    • Location: Canada
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 20:16:55 (permalink)
    is this across all models
    #17
    the_Scarlet_one
    formerly Scarlet-tech
    • Total Posts : 24581
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2013/11/13 02:48:57
    • Location: East Coast
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 79
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 20:18:53 (permalink)
    mike406
    Way too much rambling in his video...So if I'm getting this right, just don't undervolt the GPU and you should be fine? What's the problem then? Is it not apparent that dropping the voltage to 0.6V would obviously cause the card to pull some tricks behind the scenes to keep itself from crashing from lack of power? It seems completely obvious to me that the performance at 0.6V regardless of core clock would be worse than at stock or higher voltage...So I fail to see the issue he's pointing out.


    The point was, with overvolting, it is just as bad. The overclock drops down and the scores dont improve.
    #18
    808sting
    iCX Member
    • Total Posts : 462
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/04/13 15:04:51
    • Location: US
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 6
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/30 21:22:36 (permalink)
    rshwayder
    The Pascal Problem is that Nvidia is getting better at maxing out their video cards out of the box.

    Before Boost 3.0, we'd be going nuts about getting 500MHz extra on the core. The cards do most of the OCing for us now, so we complain when we only get a few more bins beyond stock.



    I think this is the root concern.  nVidia has made it easier for the masses to get optimal performance without DIY mods.  The enthusiast and extreme guys are getting deminishing returns for effort and invested $$$.  Between FE to Kingpin, the decision will be more on cost due to deminishing returns of FPS gains.  Or it's all about the bling.  I gave up on higher end cards with fancy air coolers and temp sensors.  Depending on Volta and monitor upgrades, I may go with single card on my next refresh.
     
    I just hope Team Red puts up a good fight to drive card prices down.

    i9 13900KS, Asus ROG Hero Z690 MB, 32GB G.Skill DDR5-6400
    Gigabyte 4090 Gaming OC
    External open-loop w/Velocity2 WB
    Corsair 900D Case
    Firecuda SSD 1TB & 2TB, EVO 970P 1TB, Black 8TB
    Asus & LG BD-RE
    Corsair AX1600i PS
    LG 38GL950B-G
    #19
    powermix24
    Superclocked Member
    • Total Posts : 119
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2016/12/09 12:45:00
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/31 00:51:05 (permalink)
    mike406
    His hair makes it hard for me to take him seriously.


    yea i know :) lol

    Intel 9900K 5GHZ|Windows 10 AE|Gigabyte Z390 Pro Wifi|Corsair H150i ELITE CAPELLIX|16GB GSkill RGB DDR4 3200Mz|EVGA RTX 3080 FTW Ultra|EVGA G3 1000 Watt|EVGA DG-87 Case|Alienware 34'' Curved Gaming Monitor: AW3418DW
    #20
    cloiselle1
    iCX Member
    • Total Posts : 334
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2012/11/17 18:57:54
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 0
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/31 02:58:51 (permalink)
    It's sample dependent. Each different chip has its own leakage characteristics.

    Some will not scale at all with voltage. Some will slightly.

    The smaller nanometer process resulted in higher clock rates. Not targeting tweaking by nvidia.

    It also completely changed how voltage influences these cards and their susceptibility to temperature influence.

    The exact thing we learned with maxwell and now pascal is what guys are experiencing with the 7700k yet they can't figure it out, let alone ACCEPT the reality of process node die shrinks and what that means for behavior and characteristics of a chip.
    post edited by cloiselle1 - 2017/05/31 03:01:45
    #21
    ipkha
    CLASSIFIED Member
    • Total Posts : 2308
    • Reward points : 0
    • Joined: 2015/02/10 21:01:40
    • Location: Indiana
    • Status: offline
    • Ribbons : 6
    Re: The Pascal Problem 2017/05/31 04:27:59 (permalink)
    I'm not sure what kind of problem this really is. It's probably a sanity check of some sort. If the chips gets too many bad calculations from cores it probably disabled them. Same problem with under volting, the chip doesn't get enough power for the cores to complete the calculations so the chip shuts them down or doesn't use them. Either way it lowers the score.
    His argument makes no sense in technical terms. Even if a sensor in the chip could tell the incoming voltage, there's no good to reduce it. I'd say it resembles Intel's system for monitoring the state of the chip. Intel can selectively shut down parts of the chip or selectively send more power to them if that's needed.


    #22
    Jump to:
  • Back to Mobile