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Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs

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larrysb
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2019/01/03 19:05:02 (permalink)
Well, I was gifted an x299 motherboard, MSI SLI plus. So did a quick system build with a i9-7940X and a H100i-v2 cooler. Was happy with the CPU results, under high load, jumps to about 52c, then drops right back down when load is reduced. So happy enough on that end. Until I felt around on the mobo at the VRM heat sink. 
 
Holy smokes, it hits over 63c, per the mobo's onboard sensor just sitting there idle. And the really bad part of it is they went through the trouble of making a honking big extrusion for the top side of the board, replete with RGB lighting badges to further inhibit airflow. However - the back side of the PCB contains the other half of the VRM mosfets and they are cooled by.... a flat metal plate. Literally, 100x15mm flat metal plate, no fins, nada. Just sandwiches to the aforementioned cosmetic sink on the other side with two screws. One side gets cool-looking big metal thing with lights, other side, with just as much cooling needed, gets a 2mm aluminum flat plate. 
 
I have to say, this is one of the dumbest things I've seen. 
 
It works, and the mosfet sensor reports that it never goes above 75c (so far). But that's just nuts. 
 
Otherwise, boards seems fine in most ways, just getting used to MSI's bios. 
 
Will be thinking over whether to keep it or move on to something else. 
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    bcavnaugh
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/03 19:22:34 (permalink)
    I have to say I really Love my X299 Dark Motherboards with the Supper Overkill VRM Active Cooling that is. 
     
    But 62°C is ok.
    Heavy plated heatsinks with RGB Mystic Light
     

     
    Yep another RGB Motherboard

    post edited by bcavnaugh - 2019/01/03 19:30:13

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    ty_ger07
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/03 19:53:49 (permalink)
    MOSFETs are designed to sink their heat into the PCB. With proper PCB design, large ground planes, adequate VIAs, and properly spaced thermal load, large heatsinks on MOSFETs are unnecessary. MOSFET heatsinks are inefficient in the first place. MOSFETs don't efficiently transfer heat through their insulating tops, plus the thermal pad or paste adds additional thermal resistance. Often MOSFET heatsinks serve more to just even MOSFET temperature between phases for proper MOSFET phase load sharing. Without even MOSFET temperatures, the hotter MOSFET would have decreased amperage output and the phase outputs would be uneven. MOSFETs are often rated for more than 110c, but it is good to keep their temperature below 105c in order to keep nearby capacitors soldered to the same PCB happy. If you are seeing MOSFET temperatures below 100c under load, there is no need to worry. I think products are generally engineered effectively, and generally there is no need to question why they are manufactured a certain way; a product with a warranty would lose the company money if designed inadequately. Game/crunch/produce/whatever without worry.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2019/01/03 20:01:57

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    Woomack
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/04 03:30:36 (permalink)
    I don't know what about MSI but I've never had problems with ASRock X299 motherboards and I actually reviewed nearly whole line of their motherboards with a i9-7900X CPU. Right now only the X299E-ITX/ac left which is in ITX format and still handles overclocked 7900X without issues (on ambient temps, results are similar to that on full ATX OC series boards). I wait on a new memory kit for this rig and I guess I will rebuild the rig and make some additional tests soon.
     
    Typical CPU power section has components that can work up to ~120°C+ so I wouldn't worry about it when there are no stability issues. It was already said so just adding my 5c.


     
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    larrysb
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/05 01:02:12 (permalink)
    No I understand how the mosfets are rated and how the heat tabs are soldered to the pcb.
     
    On the other hand - they didn't use the best FETs and the heatsinks are dissipating a lot of heat even if coupled to the epoxy side of the packages with a gel pad.  Honestly, something that's not really pulling that many watts at CPU idle, shouldn't be hovering at 65c in a cool ambient environment.
     
    The goofy part is half the fets are under the rather large heatsink you see on top with RGB lighting and everything. The other half are on the back side of the board, under a thin 100mmx15mm metal plate.  (on the left) on the image below. Yes, it gets really freaking hot.

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    ty_ger07
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/05 08:00:56 (permalink)
    It hits 63 c idle, 75 c peak according to your first post. That's not a problem. "Really freaking hot" according to our skin is 60 c. Since the back "heatsink" is small it will heat soak and idle and load temperature will both be "really freaking hot" according to touch. Since the back MOSFETs and front MOSFETs are thermally connected by the PCB, they are all cooled by the same methods together. I wouldn't be surprised if the front heatsink doesn't feel "really freaking hot" since it has poor thermal contact with the MOSFETs and any heat it does absorb is quickly dissipated by its large size. All that really matters is that 75c is no problem at all. Again, scoff the design all you want, but they are in the business to make money and the design clearly must work, otherwise they would lose money to the warranty. Game on in peace.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2019/01/05 08:35:10

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    HarryD
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/05 08:55:37 (permalink)
    Who needs cooling when you have RGB?!
     
    I stay away from anything with RGB.
    My X99 Classified runs perfectly and I won't be upgrading until EVGA releases another "Classified" board that I like.

    EVGA X99 Classified
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    #7
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/05 10:35:29 (permalink)
    HarryD
    Who needs cooling when you have RGB?!
     
    I stay away from anything with RGB.
    My X99 Classified runs perfectly and I won't be upgrading until EVGA releases another "Classified" board that I like.

    The presence of RGB is completely irrelevant. MSI chose to have a double-sided MOSFET load in order to fit 8 memory slots neatly. You could have a 20lb heatsink connected to the top row of MOSFETs and still they would perform the same. MOSFET heatsinks never are very efficient. The existing RGB heatsink is already struggling to absorb any more heat. A larger heatsink would be woefully unable to absorb heat due to the fact that MOSFETs aren't designed to be adequately cooled by heatsinks in the first place.

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    larrysb
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/06 21:28:24 (permalink)
    The RGB thingie actually blocks the airflow through the heatsink. I took it out - and dropped 7c at idle...
     
    Yes, I know about VRM's and that mosfets can handle substantial heat. The onboard sensor says it is 63c, idle, doing nothing. That's a little wacky. 
     
    There are competing boards (even from MSI), which don't double-side the VRM and have more effective heat dissipation. Not all fet modules dissipate heat through the bottom solder tab either, though these do. There are also better fets than those used (they used PK616 and PK632, 16 on top and 16 on bottom for pete's sake) that could all be placed topside and in contact with cooling. A better FET choice would have all fit on top and run substantially lower temperatures. 
     
    Also, over time, even though the fets themselves handle 100c or more, the board around them, including the solder joints and the substrate itself suffers. 
     
    They (MSI) offer this as a workstation (design station) board, not just a gamer board intended for intermittent use. Long hours, high CPU loads. 
     
    I think it fair to criticize it, speaking as an EE myself. 
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    larrysb
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/10 19:30:31 (permalink)
    I think I'm going to swap this puppy out for another X299 board.  The VRM reaches 99c with a 14 core i9-7940X, with only 92% CPU load and no overclock at all. CPU is nice and happy at only 53c after a couple of hours running a burn in. 
     
    Also having intermittent reboots, which could be either board or power supply. I have a Seasonic Prime 1000 and it isn't even warm. Trying different steps to see what is causing it. 
     
     
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    Cool GTX
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/15 15:43:45 (permalink)
    Point a case fan in the direction of the heatsink

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    JacobB
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/26 17:43:40 (permalink)
    HarryD
    Who needs cooling when you have RGB?!
     
    I stay away from anything with RGB.
    My X99 Classified runs perfectly and I won't be upgrading until EVGA releases another "Classified" board that I like.


    Our DARK boards a really good if you are looking for something like a Classified :) Take a look at them when you get the chance!
     
    -Jacob B.
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    larrysb
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/01/28 11:15:44 (permalink)
    So I am going to replace this board pretty soon. 
     
    In further testing, under moderate compute loads, the VRM sensor hit 98c in about 10 minutes, with the LED strip taken off of it. It was continuing to climb. That's with a i9 7940x running at 3.1ghz - no overclock at all.  With a 40mm fan strapped to the heat sink, the sensor reports 90c in about the same amount of time, but doesn't seem to stop climbing. Once I get the RTX cards running deep learning loads and the ambient case temp goes up, I don't think there's much margin left. 
     
    There are other reasons I'm not crazy about it. 
     
    In the running:  EVGA FTWk board, or an ASUS WS board. 
     
    I need to run a couple of RTX2080ti or RTXTitans in it. The WS board is x2 slot spacing. I can now buy a 2-slot NVLink bridge, but cooling is an issue. I'm going to need waterblocks, hybrid kits or blower cards. 
     
     
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    GGTV-Jon
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/02/03 00:06:17 (permalink)
    If you are going SLI just get the X299 Dark


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    larrysb
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    Re: Gifted a nonEVGA x299 mobo, holy bad VRM designs 2019/02/05 12:33:22 (permalink)
    Looking for a board that will fit in a Fractal Design R5 mid-tower. I think a slightly over sized ATX will fit, not sure about the Dark. Will be running 2080ti x2 for deep learning.
     
    It's a workstation rather than for gaming, so I'm also using a lot of memory. I think among the EVGA offerings, the FTW-K x299 is more likely. 
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