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Helpful ReplyGTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%?

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Jackos
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 00:03:49 (permalink)
Heh, that's not optimal I'd say. Why can't the life be easy with 0-100% fan range? -_-

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 06:12:06 (permalink)
Ya, I think 1200rpm is the minimum. Thats unfortunate.
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 06:59:51 (permalink)
Jackos

Heh, that's not optimal I'd say. Why can't the life be easy with 0-100% fan range? -_-


0%? Lol. That's not possible. You guys are all attacking this from a software (BIOS) perspective and not thinking about the hardware perspective at all. There are physical limitations which impose restrictions software cannot overcome.

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 07:53:26 (permalink)
I where running my old EVGA GTX 460 1GB in idle passive mode :P Just a nice BIOS mod together with a well ventilated case and room air conditioning.
 
Since the GTX760 got even better temperatures I'm quite sure it would be possible too.
 
ty_ger07

Jackos

Heh, that's not optimal I'd say. Why can't the life be easy with 0-100% fan range? -_-


0%? Lol. That's not possible. You guys are all attacking this from a software (BIOS) perspective and not thinking about the hardware perspective at all. There are physical limitations which impose restrictions software cannot overcome.



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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 09:17:32 (permalink)
I don't think that 1200 rpm are the minimum of a current PWM fan.
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 11:26:36 (permalink)
I have this card and I can tolerate the sound, but I live in a noisy house. At night when I use netflix I hear the card sometimes. Anyway, I'm beginning to think maybe Nv told EVGA something like, hey, if you want to run those Gpu's on 'those' boards at 'those' high clocks, we want 'x' cooling, maybe there is some kind of technical agreement??
 
Or I'm just completely lost and way off the mark, seems reasonable though. Oh and my house is always 68*f and the card idles at 43%, 1230/1260rpm and 25-28*c. Never go's over 62*C and fans never spin up very much, it's aaaabsolutely worth it to me! Great cooler EVGA, just not for everyone I guess. Oh it runs in an open case, and still I barely hear it when I sleep 3m away from it.
 
EDIT: Also these aren't typical fans, they're double ball bearing, maybe there is a higher minimum speed because they will make noise and be annoying?
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 12:20:37 (permalink)
I cant help but I will say that my 770 Classy goes to 29% at 1200rpm but no lower. I have a Define r4 case so noise really isn't an issue anyway.
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 13:10:25 (permalink)
easy fix? put it on water.... boom noise gone 

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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 15:57:29 (permalink)
sQeep

I don't think that 1200 rpm are the minimum of a current PWM fan.


Right... As if there is only one design in existence and all are created to the same specifications.

Do you know how a PWM fan works compared to a fan which isn't PWM controlled? You might want to research the hardware before you blame the software.

There are multiple limitations:
1) We know: BIOS imposes a limit (what you are complaining about).
2) NVIDIA's Fan control system changed a lot when the 400 series released and no one seems to be an expert at explaining how it actually works any more on any of the 400 series or newer cards or why it doesn't behave as expected.
3) Most PWM fans have a minimum speed. You can test this by cutting or disconnecting the PWM wire to the fan and see what speed it runs at. You have to leave the power, ground, and tachometer wires connected and then watch it's RPM. The fan will receive no PWM input and automatically run at it's minimum speed.
4) The PWM control circuit feeding the fan header may have a built in hardware minimum meaning that it may be designed to always output a PWM signal output within a certain frequency range.

I would suggest the first thing you do is disconnect the PWM wire to the fans and see how fast they run. If 1200 RPM is their minimum, you guys are all barking up the wrong tree.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2013/09/06 18:24:38

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 23:17:13 (permalink)
ty_ger07
Do you know how a PWM fan works compared to a fan which isn't PWM controlled? You might want to research the hardware before you blame the software.
.....


I think you may be mixing up voltage control with PWM. The latter has a much lower spinup speed, and, also, I\m pretty sure if you disconnect the sensor wire, they run at max speed, not minimum.
 
In any case, if it was a hardware limitation, EVGA has really dropped the ball on the communication. Ie: showing 43% as the minimum implies that it could be much lower but for whatever reason, they chose not to enable this. If the % is supposed to reference the max RPM, ie: a fan that where 43%=1300RPM, 100%=~3000RPM, then it looks like they've done a poor job of selecting an appropriate fan for the job if it never spins up beyond 56%~1620RPM@65°C at typical gaming load (looping the Tomb Raider benchmark a few times non-stop and checking max temp/speed in GPU-Z). They should have used a fan with a range of 800-2500 or 500-2000. The current fan might be ok for the top-of-the-line overclocked versions of the card, but mine's the 980 base clocked vanilla version with ACX. It should not be this loud at idle no matter how you slice it...
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/06 23:49:33 (permalink)
Im going to havw to agree, my card (GTX 780) currently spins at 1140 rpms at 29% (using the assisted dual bios feature of the card) and its still far too loud. It IS the noisest part of my system. Its incredibly frustrating when you spend a fortune to make your computer quiet, silent fans, CPU cooler and SSD's and then comes along this piece of technology and puts all your work to waste.
 
Its frustrating, and im trying to learn to live with the noise but I just dont know if I can. This is the first Evga product Ive owned to and I must say, this silence they claim is a lie.
 
I want it to spin about 600-800 RPM's and Im sure this is possible. I have no problem with the card fans spinning up when required, but cmon, at room temperature it is easily capable of spinning at those speeds.
 
 
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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/07 08:02:51 (permalink)
hybrid2d4x4

ty_ger07
Do you know how a PWM fan works compared to a fan which isn't PWM controlled? You might want to research the hardware before you blame the software.
.....


I think you may be mixing up voltage control with PWM. The latter has a much lower spinup speed, and, also, I\m pretty sure if you disconnect the sensor wire, they run at max speed, not minimum.


No. I didn't say to disconnect the sensor ("tachometer") wire. I said to disconnect the PWM wire and leave tachometer, ground, and power connnected. If you disconnect the tachometer wire, yes it will run at max speed because the fan controller will detect that the fan has stalled. But if you disconnect the PWM wire, the fan will run at minimum speed because the fan's FET will recieve no input and will run at the fan's designed minimum no-stall speed.


In any case, if it was a hardware limitation, EVGA has really dropped the ball on the communication. Ie: showing 43% as the minimum implies that it could be much lower but for whatever reason, they chose not to enable this. If the % is supposed to reference the max RPM, ie: a fan that where 43%=1300RPM, 100%=~3000RPM, then it looks like they've done a poor job of selecting an appropriate fan for the job if it never spins up beyond 56%~1620RPM@65°C at typical gaming load (looping the Tomb Raider benchmark a few times non-stop and checking max temp/speed in GPU-Z). They should have used a fan with a range of 800-2500 or 500-2000. The current fan might be ok for the top-of-the-line overclocked versions of the card, but mine's the 980 base clocked vanilla version with ACX. It should not be this loud at idle no matter how you slice it...


I'm not arguing whether or not EVGA chose the wrong fans or the wrong fan profile. That is only an opinion-based conclusion depending on what you want out of a cooler. All I am saying is that you guys need to do some more testing before you all blame the BIOS and claim that EVGA could easily fix the "problem" with a BIOS update but refuses to because EVGA doesn't care about you. I am just arguing that perhaps it is a hardware problem due to design decisions made prior to manufacture which EVGA cannot easily fix at this point.

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/07 09:15:26 (permalink)
No one said that the acx is a bad cooler, the question is just if it would be possible to lower fanspeed and noise.
Temps shouldn't be the problem. It would be okay if there is a limitation because of the used hardware, but in this case it would be just nice to know. ;)
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MasterMike
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/07 09:17:15 (permalink)
Well, I am guessing it may be a limitation in the fans, if it doesnt change anything going from 43% to 38%. 1200rpm for both when the latter should be around 1100.
 
They replied back to me with something that did not answer my question whatsoever.
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/07 09:20:16 (permalink)
An official statement from EVGA regarding the fans would be much appreciated.

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/07 09:42:10 (permalink)
I doubt any replies will come from EVGA. I doubt this is all new feedback to them and probably don't see the need to respond.
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/22 10:41:45 (permalink)
I have the 760 SC External Exhaust version and its idle fan speed is 40%. Sadly this gives off a very annoying audible resonance. It's actually 3db quieter at 42% because of this. I have been keeping tabs here to see if someone finds the magic bullet to solve our problem but sadly no luck i can see.

Our next best option thought might be the contact the right EVGA support staff member. As you can see below, EVGA might just have the right specialist for the task if enough of us email him. Just head the to EVGA support page. XD







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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/22 21:16:03 (permalink)
Based on the kind of support I have received through the trouble ticket system, I have very little confidence that anything will ever be done about this. The replies have shown that the support staff don't actually understand what the source of the issue is or simply do not know how to communicate it effectively. Based on all the posts in this thread and others like it, I'm fairly certain that they have chosen to use PWM fans with an operating range that runs the card loud but cool.
 
At the moment I work long hours but when that dies down, and also when Scythe re-launches their North American distribution, I'll be looking into replacing the stock fans with two of their 92mm fans (or maybe the slim 100mm) that run at more appropriate speeds, and wiring them to run off the vid card fan header. I've briefly looked but couldn't find a pinout for the fan connector. If anyone has looked into this or has experience from other cards, please let me know.
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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/22 21:38:53 (permalink)
hybrid2d4x4
Based on the kind of support I have received through the trouble ticket system, I have very little confidence that anything will ever be done about this. The replies have shown that the support staff don't actually understand what the source of the issue is or simply do not know how to communicate it effectively. Based on all the posts in this thread and others like it, I'm fairly certain that they have chosen to use PWM fans with an operating range that runs the card loud but cool.
 
At the moment I work long hours but when that dies down, and also when Scythe re-launches their North American distribution, I'll be looking into replacing the stock fans with two of their 92mm fans (or maybe the slim 100mm) that run at more appropriate speeds, and wiring them to run off the vid card fan header. I've briefly looked but couldn't find a pinout for the fan connector. If anyone has looked into this or has experience from other cards, please let me know.




Hope this helps:
 

 
Photo taken from a 9500GT I have laying around.
 
Many video cards have fan wires which aren't colored, but the layout left-to-right (viewed from the back side) should be the same.

Attached Image(s)


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hybrid2d4x4
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/22 21:59:31 (permalink)
Thanks, but the connector on the ACX cards is not a standard PWM plug since it powers two fans on one header, so it has either one or two extra wires (don't remember which). I'm pretty sure the ground and 12V are shared (both fans splice into the same wire on the connector), and maybe the signal and/or tach wires are unique to each fan?
 
The next question is: if I connect a pair of fans rated for 500-2000 RPM, will the vBIOS actually let me run them at 43% duty cycle or will it notice that the RPMs at that level are less than 1300 and have a panic attack and ramp em up to 1300 anyway (defeating the whole purpose of the fanswap)?
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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/22 22:31:36 (permalink)
hybrid2d4x4
Thanks, but the connector on the ACX cards is not a standard PWM plug since it powers two fans on one header, so it has either one or two extra wires (don't remember which). I'm pretty sure the ground and 12V are shared (both fans splice into the same wire on the connector), and maybe the signal and/or tach wires are unique to each fan?

 
The fan header is still standard.
 
High quality picture via Techpowerup:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/GTX_780_SC_ACX_Cooler/images/front_full.jpg
 
The white arrow next to the header connector should be the PWM pin.  Looking at it in the orientation of the picture linked above, left to right, it should be ground, power, tachometer, PWM.
 
How do you wire two into one?  The +12v, ground, and PWM wires split off to both fans.  The tachometer feedback wire comes back from only one fan and the tachometer feedback wire from the other fan goes to nothing.
 

The next question is: if I connect a pair of fans rated for 500-2000 RPM, will the vBIOS actually let me run them at 43% duty cycle or will it notice that the RPMs at that level are less than 1300 and have a panic attack and ramp em up to 1300 anyway (defeating the whole purpose of the fanswap)?



Good question.  
You might have to experiment with custom BIOS at that point if you didn't get the results you were expecting.
 
 
Let me make this perfectly clear:
I have not tested the ACX fans and don't know for certain if it is in fact a minimum fan speed issue.  I don't own the card and welcome someone to do the experiment as I described and find out for certain.
Here's the experiment:
Disconnect the PWM wires to the fans and see how fast the fans spin.  With the PWM wires disconnected, the fans will run at their minimum speed.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2013/09/22 22:35:04

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/23 12:00:05 (permalink)
Thanks for the continued stream of good input. I'll do the min fan speed test in the next few days and report back.
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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/27 22:46:22 (permalink)
Any luck?

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/28 21:55:44 (permalink)
Haven't had a day off yet so I haven't had time to mess around with it. I quickly tried taking off the shroud but it looks like it can't be done without removing the entire cooler, re-pasting the chip and putting the cooler sans shroud back on. EVGA sure made this thing a major pain to work on.
 
I did get a PWM y-splitter (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX31957) and found a PWM connector that looks like the kind that the 760 uses (from the stock AMD 4870 blower; smaller in size than the standard 4 pin case fan connector) and will solder the wires to this mini PWM-connector and test with a 1200rpm 120mm PWM fan just to see how it reacts... Just need a day off or at least a shorter day at work so I have an hour or 2 free in the evening to do all this.
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ty_ger07
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/28 22:48:14 (permalink)
Cool

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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/29 18:26:37 (permalink)
Ok, I've done the test and the outcome isn't really what you predicted, ty_ger07: the fans spun up to max speed and actually pushed themselves (along with the shroud) off the heatsink without the PWM signal wire attached.

 
I read up on this a bit in the PWM specifications (http://formfactors.org/developer/specs/4_Wire_PWM_Spec.pdf) and it says in sec 3.3 that this is normal behaviour... The other interesting thing in those specs is this:
 
3.2 Minimum Fan Speed Requirements
The vendor shall specify the minimum RPM and the corresponding PWM duty cycle. Thisspecified minimum RPM shall be 30% of maximum RPM or less. The fan shall be able to start
and run at this RPM.
 
In essence this says that either the 3000RPM fans used in the ACX must be able to run at 900RPM or less (= .3 * 3000) if they are compliant with the PWM specifications, and that EVGA actually is artificially enforcing the 43% minimum OR they are using fans that don't comply with specs.
 
Moving on, I also tried using a 3rd party 120mm PWM fan on the EVGA's header and the results were promising, at least partly. I used an old Arctic Cooling 1500RPM fan, and while it incorrectly read the RPMs (in GPU-z) at 100% as 3000, it was possible to lower the fan speed down to what is probably 43% of 1500 (645RPM) and the annoying howl of the stock fans was gone. With the case lid off, and one 120mm fan at 645RPM, the card ran at 21 deg C.

 
 
Long story short, either way you look at it it looks like EVGA dropped the ball on this issue. Either they're arbitrarily forcing us to run at higher revs than needed or they sourced their fans from a manufacturer that doesn't comply with PWM standards. I'll keep checking back and looking around for a BIOS that lowers this absurd 43% minimum.
post edited by hybrid2d4x4 - 2013/09/29 18:31:25
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/09/30 05:26:55 (permalink)
Huh. Why would 0% duty cycle be 100%? It must be a safety measure in the event of bad input that the fan goes to 100%. Good stuff even though you proved me wrong.

I guess that must be why they show that box below 30% as undetermined. As you go lower and lower below 30%, the fan would just continue to run at 30% until apparently some point close to 0%, it jumps to 100%.

Instead of leaving the PWM wires to the fan disconnected floating as an open circuit, does it make a difference if you ground them to drive it down to logic low instead of floating open?
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2013/09/30 06:24:23

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MasterMike
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/10/01 05:54:05 (permalink)
So... I installed my Accelero Xtreme III on my GTX760 last night, I have been playing games and stuff... What a difference it makes! So quiet compared to the ACX cooler. No rattle at all either... Much cooler. Max 70C at full load.
 
Unfortunately, the rpm keeps jumping from 1500 to 1800, but still very quiet so... I don't really care then. It doesn't change much that I change the fan %, unless I am nearly at 100%, then it will be stable.
post edited by MasterMike - 2013/10/01 06:56:30
#58
aednichols
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/10/02 18:57:46 (permalink)
I don't have any new knowledge to contribute but I would like to register my sentiments: EVGA should really acknowledge this problem and send out a BIOS update.
 
Even if it is impossible to run the fans at, say, 10% due to hardware limitations, it should be possible to turn them off when at idle, assuming adequate ambient cooling. My PSU does this, my case fans do this, why not the GPU? Indeed, the MSI GTX 760 Gaming has this behavior, see page 7 of the review on guru3d.
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dhmhtrhs79
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Re:GTX760 ACX - lowering fan speed below the minimum 43%? 2013/10/09 10:20:47 (permalink)
Hello there!
 
This is my first post!
 
Look what I found:
 
http: // news.softpedia.com /news/Download-EVGA-s-Dual-BIOS-Release-for-Its-GTX-760-and-770-Graphics-Cards-389314.shtml
 (delete spaces)
 
I installed it on my GTX760 SC ACX Dual Bios and finally Precision X lets the fan speed at a minimum of 31%!
 
Although 31% should make the fan speed to about 900 RPM (provided that 43% was 1260 RPM earlier) the actual fan speed goes to 1080-1110 RPM.
 
But at least that's an improvement.
post edited by dhmhtrhs79 - 2013/10/09 10:22:53
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