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Hot!ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip

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rjohnson11
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2018/10/12 10:01:02 (permalink)
https://www.techpowerup.c...l-x16-pcie-bridge-chip
 
This board appears to be using a PCI-Express 3.0 x48 bridge chip to convert 16 gen 3.0 lanes from the CPU to two x16 downstream slots, which are further split to four x8 slots, depending on how you populate the slots. Expect a price of around $350 for this board. Very interesting for a workstation motherboard in my opinion.
 


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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/12 18:30:40 (permalink)
    Is EVGA the only company that knows where to properly place the pci-e extra power plug?

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    TheMadDutchDude
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 09:30:56 (permalink)
    Seems to be that way... 

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    the_Scarlet_one
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 11:39:14 (permalink)
    kram36
    Is EVGA the only company that knows where to properly place the pci-e extra power plug?


    I literally had to search the board to find the plug! Good lord... the engineers just don’t care do they.
    #4
    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 12:02:19 (permalink)
    Look where MSI put it on this $600 motherboard.
     


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    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 12:56:43 (permalink)
    the_Scarlet_one
    kram36
    Is EVGA the only company that knows where to properly place the pci-e extra power plug?


    I literally had to search the board to find the plug! Good lord... the engineers just don’t care do they.

    To be fair, from an electrical design perspective, where they put the plug on this board makes a lot of sense. The shorter power and ground plane distance between the connector and the slot has a lot of benefits; such as less capacitive and inductive losses to the high frequency switching voltage regulators, cleaner power, less EMI, less heat, and less complexity. In fact, I think it makes more sense in every way other than cosmetic.

    Using a bridge chip, on the other hand, I don't think makes a lot of sense. But what can you do when trying to make a capable motherboard for a very restricted CPU? I think that buying a different CPU and chipset should be strongly considered if you need lots of PCI-E lanes.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/13 13:01:27
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    Sajin
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 12:58:39 (permalink)
    Gotta love that higher latency that the bridge chip adds.


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    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 13:04:11 (permalink)
    Sajin
    Gotta love that higher latency that the bridge chip adds.

    And lower bandwidth when you saturate the CPU's lanes for an extended period of time and the bridge chip queue fills up. The latency is a constant problem which only gets worse when you want it the least. And performance becomes a problem whenever you need it the most. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/13 13:07:17
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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 15:53:45 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    To be fair, from an electrical design perspective, where they put the plug on this board makes a lot of sense. The shorter power and ground plane distance between the connector and the slot has a lot of benefits; such as less capacitive and inductive losses to the high frequency switching voltage regulators, cleaner power, less EMI, less heat, and less complexity. In fact, I think it makes more sense in every way other than cosmetic.

    To be fair, it doesn't make any difference where the plug is placed for the job it's doing. It's a supplemental power delivery system that was at one time delivered through a PCI-e slot with EVGA's Power Boost and EVGA decided to build into their motherboards. I'm sure EVGA knows if there would be any issue with where they place the plug.

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    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 16:28:30 (permalink)
    kram36
    ty_ger07
    To be fair, from an electrical design perspective, where they put the plug on this board makes a lot of sense. The shorter power and ground plane distance between the connector and the slot has a lot of benefits; such as less capacitive and inductive losses to the high frequency switching voltage regulators, cleaner power, less EMI, less heat, and less complexity. In fact, I think it makes more sense in every way other than cosmetic.

    To be fair, it doesn't make any difference where the plug is placed for the job it's doing. It's a supplemental power delivery system that was at one time delivered through a PCI-e slot with EVGA's Power Boost and EVGA decided to build into their motherboards. I'm sure EVGA knows if there would be any issue with where they place the plug.

    Yes, it does make a difference. Maybe not in a noticeable way (that would have to be proven), but definitely the difference is measurable using precision equipment. From an electrical design standpoint, placing the connector next to the left side of the primary PCI-E slot is the best location. That's why they do it. If you don't know why, look at the pinout of the slot and do some reading about high load/high frequency switching circuits and power plane capacitance, inductance, and resistance.

    The EVGA Power Boost is an unfortunate comparison for you to make. Unfortunate because it highlights another poor design decision by EVGA. The Power Boost was a bad brute-force hack which was not even ATX compliant. EVGA is fortunate that it didn't blow up in their face. It didn't have any protection built in and literally, in some circumstances, tied multi-railed PSUs into one rail using fragile connections only rated for 75 watts. Tie two 500 watt rails together, through a PCI-E slot with a 75 watt maximum rated bridge? Smart.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/13 16:37:46
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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 16:46:37 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    kram36
    ty_ger07
    To be fair, from an electrical design perspective, where they put the plug on this board makes a lot of sense. The shorter power and ground plane distance between the connector and the slot has a lot of benefits; such as less capacitive and inductive losses to the high frequency switching voltage regulators, cleaner power, less EMI, less heat, and less complexity. In fact, I think it makes more sense in every way other than cosmetic.

    To be fair, it doesn't make any difference where the plug is placed for the job it's doing. It's a supplemental power delivery system that was at one time delivered through a PCI-e slot with EVGA's Power Boost and EVGA decided to build into their motherboards. I'm sure EVGA knows if there would be any issue with where they place the plug.

    Yes, it does make a difference. Maybe not in a noticeable way (that would have to be proven), but definitely the difference is measurable using precision equipment. From an electrical design standpoint, placing the connector next to the left side of the primary PCI-E slot is the best location. That's why they do it. If you don't know why, look at the pinout of the slot and do some reading about high load/high frequency switching circuits and power plane capacitance, inductance, and resistance.

    The EVGA Power Boost is an unfortunate comparison for you to make. Unfortunate because it highlights another poor design decision by EVGA. The Power Boost was a bad brute-force hack which was not even ATX compliant. EVGA is fortunate that it didn't blow up in their face. It didn't have any protection built in and literally, in some circumstances, tied multi-railed PSUs into one rail using fragile connections only rated for 75 watts.

    It doesn't matter where the plug is placed for the job it's doing. It's not there just to provide supplemental power to the top PCI-e slot only, it's there to supply supplemental power to all the PCI-e slots. If you just have one graphics card in the motherboard you won't even need to use the PCI-e supplemental power plug. Start loading up the motherboard with graphics cards it won't matter if the supplemental power plug is next to the top PCI-e slot or at the bottom PCI-e slot.
     
    EVGA's Power Boost was a fix to keep people from burning up the 24-pin power connector when a motherboard was loaded up with power hungry graphics cards. If you only had one graphics card in the motherboard, there was no issue. The issue came when you loaded up several high power graphics cards. EVGA's Power Boost was a fix for every motherboard on the market at that time. EVGA stepped up to the plate to fix this issue for every manufacture.

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    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/13 18:18:39 (permalink)
    kram36
    It doesn't matter where the plug is placed for the job it's doing.

    It does matter.

    It's not there just to provide supplemental power to the top PCI-e slot only, it's there to supply supplemental power to all the PCI-e slots. If you just have one graphics card in the motherboard you won't even need to use the PCI-e supplemental power plug. Start loading up the motherboard with graphics cards it won't matter if the supplemental power plug is next to the top PCI-e slot or at the bottom PCI-e slot.

    Fair enough.
     

    EVGA's Power Boost was a fix to keep people from burning up the 24-pin power connector when a motherboard was loaded up with power hungry graphics cards. If you only had one graphics card in the motherboard, there was no issue. The issue came when you loaded up several high power graphics cards. EVGA's Power Boost was a fix for every motherboard on the market at that time. EVGA stepped up to the plate to fix this issue for every manufacture.

    Sure, you can thank EVGA for providing a solution, but it wasn't a good solution.  What EVGA should have done is include over-current protection.  A single shunt resistor, microcontroller, and transistor would have made the product fine.
     
    The fact is that it was a horrible hack, wasn't ATX compliant, and people risked ruining their motherboard by using it.  By using a non-ATX compliant accessory, if people ruined their motherboard in the process, their warranty would be void and they would only have themself and EVGA to blame.  I am really quite surprised that it didn't blow up in EVGA's face as a lawsuit.  It acted as an un-regulated 75-watt maximum capable bridge which connected hundreds of watts together in a multi-rail PSU.  Horrible stuff.  It would have very easily completely toasted the motherboard if one of the PSU rails went dead.  EVGA really dodged a bullet, somehow.
     
    I spoke out about its design multiple times soon after it was released.  I would't be caught dead using it.  Why EVGA decided to accept the risk by releasing such a rushed hack which wasn't ATX-compliant is beyond me.  They really stuck their neck out.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/13 22:32:16
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    Vlada011
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 03:08:24 (permalink)
    600$ motherboard, MSI. They are crazy.
    I don't care for them, but if they ask 600, ASUS ask 700$. 
    That's problem.
    But I'm not angry any more...
    Simply I can't follow, I change approach completely.
    Once in 5 years, 1500 euro for platform and once in 3 years used Graphic card worth 500 euro.
     
    ASUS always had nice WS series, compare to Strix or Deluxe.
    OK ex Deluxe X299 was great.
     
    And 300-350$ is OK price for WS Board.
     
    post edited by Vlada011 - 2018/10/14 03:11:12


     
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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 03:59:22 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    I spoke out about its design multiple times soon after it was released.  I would't be caught dead using it.  Why EVGA decided to accept the risk by releasing such a rushed hack which wasn't ATX-compliant is beyond me.  They really stuck their neck out.

    Never heard of anyone having ruined their motherboard for using one. I had one on my X58 setup. EVGA released an effective fix that can still be bought to this day.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-Power-Booster-Black-100-MB-PB01-BR/dp/B005OTXUYU
     
    If it was such a huge issue as you portray it to be, EVGA would have had to recall them by now because of all the ruined motherboards from their design defective part. However. it's just a supplemental power connection to relieve some stress off the 24-pin power connection.

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    #14
    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 08:08:29 (permalink)
    kram36
    ty_ger07
    I spoke out about its design multiple times soon after it was released.  I would't be caught dead using it.  Why EVGA decided to accept the risk by releasing such a rushed hack which wasn't ATX-compliant is beyond me.  They really stuck their neck out.

    Never heard of anyone having ruined their motherboard for using one. I had one on my X58 setup. EVGA released an effective fix that can still be bought to this day.
     
    https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-Power-Booster-Black-100-MB-PB01-BR/dp/B005OTXUYU
     
    If it was such a huge issue as you portray it to be, EVGA would have had to recall them by now because of all the ruined motherboards from their design defective part. However. it's just a supplemental power connection to relieve some stress off the 24-pin power connection.

    I don't think you read what I wrote. I said EVGA has been fortunate that no one has reported big issues with it. It is poorly designed, has no protection, and is not ATX compliant.
     
    It doesn't just supplement the 24-pin connector.  It would be nice if that was the case.  What it really does is connect the 24-pin connector input directly to whatever input you choose to connect the power boost to, through the PCI-E slot of your choosing.  That is a big no no.  All it needed was a current limiting circuit and reverse current protection, and then it would have been fine.
     
    It appears fine that this product directly connects two inputs together when both inputs are functioning correctly and at approximately the same voltage, but it directly flies in the face of ATX standards and electrical engineering standards, and is very much not fine when there is a power fault.  There is not a single other thing in your computer which does this, for good reason; not just because it is against ATX standards, but also because it is a bad thing to do.  Without reverse current and over current protection, it will barbecue your motherboard if given the opportunity.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/14 09:12:26
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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 10:06:01 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    kram36
    ty_ger07
    I spoke out about its design multiple times soon after it was released.  I would't be caught dead using it.  Why EVGA decided to accept the risk by releasing such a rushed hack which wasn't ATX-compliant is beyond me.  They really stuck their neck out.

    Never heard of anyone having ruined their motherboard for using one. I had one on my X58 setup. EVGA released an effective fix that can still be bought to this day.

    https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-Power-Booster-Black-100-MB-PB01-BR/dp/B005OTXUYU

    If it was such a huge issue as you portray it to be, EVGA would have had to recall them by now because of all the ruined motherboards from their design defective part. However. it's just a supplemental power connection to relieve some stress off the 24-pin power connection.

    I don't think you read what I wrote. I said EVGA has been fortunate that no one has reported big issues with it. It is poorly designed, has no protection, and is not ATX compliant.
     
    It doesn't just supplement the 24-pin connector.  It would be nice if that was the case.  What it really does is connect the 24-pin connector input directly to whatever input you choose to connect the power boost to, through the PCI-E slot of your choosing.  That is a big no no.  All it needed was a current limiting circuit and reverse current protection, and then it would have been fine.
     
    It appears fine that this product directly connects two inputs together when both inputs are functioning correctly and at approximately the same voltage, but it directly flies in the face of ATX standards and electrical engineering standards, and is very much not fine when there is a power fault.  There is not a single other thing in your computer which does this, for good reason; not just because it is against ATX standards, but also because it is a bad thing to do.  Without reverse current and over current protection, it will barbecue your motherboard if given the opportunity.


    What the heck are you talking about? You don't plug the 24-pin power connector into the EVGA Power Boost. You plug a 4-pin molex power connector into it. I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about on the ATX standards crud nor how the Power Boost works in relation to how the PCI-e socket utilize the power coming from it. You're just typing a bunch of words to sound like you know something. People have been using two 4-pin molex power connector splitter to a PCI-e power connector to power graphics cards.
     

     
    EVGA didn't dodge a bullet with the Power Boost. The reason you have never heard of an issue with it is because the is NO issue with it. I'll trust that EVGA did their homework on the Power Boost before they released it more then I'll trust your diatribe against EVGA.
    post edited by kram36 - 2018/10/14 10:26:01

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    #16
    Hoggle
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 10:17:03 (permalink)
    Sajin
    Gotta love that higher latency that the bridge chip adds.




    This is what I was thinking when reading the comments about the PCI-E power placement. Any benefit of having the power plug closer is taken away by using the bridge chip.
    #17
    NazcaC2
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 10:32:20 (permalink)
    Let's just ask an engineer(s) from one of these companies and get the actual answers. I'd want to hear it from the source instead of forum users. No offense.
    #18
    ty_ger07
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 12:32:43 (permalink)
    kram36What the heck are you talking about? You don't plug the 24-pin power connector into the EVGA Power Boost.

    Really?  Look at an electrical schematic.  You are directly connecting +12v and ground from the 24-pin connector to the 4-pin "molex" connector's +12v power and ground by way of the power boost adapter, through the PCI-E slot.  It is a direct connection with zero isolation or protection and is completely against ATX standards.  There is no other device, that I am aware of, which connects the motherboard to an expansion card in such a way.  All video cards utilize the inputs as separate busses which are isolated and independently regulated, for a reason.  For one, it is required for ATX certification and/or PCI Express certification.  For two, it is wise to do so.
    I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about on the ATX standards crud nor how the Power Boost works in relation to how the PCI-e socket utilize the power coming from it.

    Yes, I do.  I have spent 100's of hours, as a hobby, studying ATX specifications, studying wiring diagrams, studying datasheets, studying buck and boost converters, studying switching converters, studying electrical design in general, "hard modding" video cards and motherboards, subzero cooling, and setting overclock records.  It's been 7 years since I last participated, but I am still ranked #4 of 492 on EVGA's HWBOT and am ranked #192 of 102,923 in the United States on HWBOT.  Ranked in the top 200 overclockers in the United States, specifically because of my understanding of the hardware and because of my modding abilities?  I think that merits "having a clue what I am talking about".
    You're just typing a bunch of words to sound like you know something.

    Nope.  If you really care about this subject and aren't here just to argue, I encourage you to do some research for yourself and prove me wrong.  I have done a lot of research.  Your turn.
    People have been using two 4-pin molex power connector splitter to a PCI-e power connector to power graphics cards.

    That's not the same thing, is it?  First of all, every enthusiast should know that those adapters are bandaids and that if your PSU doesn't natively have the correct connections, it isn't really up for the task, and therefore should not be used in the first place.  Second, 4-pin Molex connectors are usually on the same rail, so it isn't as likely to be a problem.  Thirdly, even if there is a fault while using that PEG adapter, it isn't directly connecting through your PCI-E slot and through the motherboard.  I haven't used those bandaid PEG adapters, and I haven't studdied those bandaid PEG adapters, but I would suspect that they may also not be ATX compliant.  But, at least if they were used during a fault, the damage would be minimal in comparison; limited to a burnt wire or burnt pin versus a burnt motherboard.
     
    NazcaC2Let's just ask an engineer(s) from one of these companies and get the actual answers. I'd want to hear it from the source instead of forum users. No offense

    Like I said, when the product was released, I became very vocal about its poor design.  EVGA never responded.  As far as I know, no one has ever provided any data to prove that the EVGA Power Boost Adapter is ATX and/or PCI-E certified, and in my numerous discussions about this power boost adapter over the last 8 years, no one has proven me wrong about my strong warning about why the adapter is potentially dangerous.  I think it is also important to note that EVGA states, on the front of the product's packaging, "Boost PCI-E Power on your EVGA Motherboard".  Why not directly advertise that it could also be used for other brands of motherboard?  Well, for one, EVGA can't guarantee that using the adapter wouldn't instantly void your motherboard's warranty.  It isn't certified, after all.  Additionally, on EVGA's product video, it shows the adapter potentially causing the motherboard to burst into flames.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9SLjiR7Q4s&t=0m58s  That would be a lot less likely to happen if the adapter had proper protection and isolation, right?  Yes.
     
     
     
    Anyway....
     
    We have gone WAY off subject.  What I said is that the example provided is an example of an EVGA product with bad (almost none) electrical design.  And I have provided plenty of reasons why.  If you don't agree, I encourage you to research for yourself.
     
     
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/10/15 15:31:58
    #19
    Brad_Hawthorne
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 13:31:58 (permalink)
    Rather stupid game with needing chips like that. Just get a Threadripper and get all the PCIe bandwidth you'll need.
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    kram36
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 13:36:10 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    kram36You're just typing a bunch of words to sound like you know something.

    Nope.

    Yep.

    EVGA X99 Classified | Intel i7-5930K | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti | WD Black PCIe NVMe 500GB | EVGA 32GB 2800MHz Memory
    #21
    NazcaC2
    EGC Admin
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/14 13:41:30 (permalink)
    It's not off subject because it's about the functionality of the OP.
    #22
    Sajin
    EVGA Forum Moderator
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/15 13:59:24 (permalink)
    Thread has been cleaned up. Please stay on topic everyone. Thanks.


    #23
    Vlada011
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    Re: ASUS Intros WS Z390 Pro Motherboard with Dual x16 PCIe Bridge Chip 2018/10/16 05:51:47 (permalink)
    I think a lot and my conclusion is. 
    i9-9820X is more interesting than i9-9900K.
     
    10 cores 4.2 or 4.5GHz, OC to 4.8-5.0GHz.
    I'm so excited looking refresh of X299, and so angry because didn't bought Apex for 200 euro.
     
     
     
     


     
    i7-5820K 4.5GHz/RVE10-EK Monoblock/Dominator Platinum 2666/ASUS GTX1080Ti Poseidon/SBZxR /Samsung 850 EVO 1TB /EVGA 1200P2/Lian Li PC-O11WXC/EK XRES D5 Revo 100 Glass/Coolstream PE360-Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM x3
    #24
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