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Answered3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant

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eg1122
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/09 12:49:28 (permalink)
I'm on the same boat with my 3090 FTW3 Hybrid. No red light but a few days ago the card started to cut video signal to my monitor with any kind of load. Only way to recover was by rebooting the PC. Computer would turn back on but same thing would happen launching any game or trying to run port royal. Got an RMA approved. Also doing a cross ship since I don't have the original fans, but now the gpu started working again. I'm playing games, ran benchmarks and no issues so far. Thing is, I didn't do anything to it. When I started having issues I put in a friend's 2080ti and the issue was gone. I put the 3090 back in and the issues came back. This was about 4 days ago. Yesterday I turned it on and ran a port royal benchmark and stress test just fine. Played warzone and AC Valhalla with no issues. Today same thing. I'm at a loss why it's working now but feel like I got a ticking time bomb in my hands. I've had this card for almost a year. Part of me fears that I'll get something worse than what I have but this card already started having issues. This is my 4th RMA and will be my 5th 3090 FTW3 Hybrid. All others had the fan ramping up and black screen issues until this one came around.
post edited by eg1122 - 2022/01/09 12:55:22

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#31
Michapolys
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/09 13:39:45 (permalink)
Alright, here goes:

There are currently two issues affecting modern high power GPUs, one relatively minor and one relatively major:

1. The minor issue is that some PSUs have misconfigured controllers, resulting in voltage regulation going haywire under some circumstances. The protections kick in, resulting in black screen. Units like the Seasonic Prime and Silverstone Strider Titanium were known to be affected and they were reportedly fixed on newer batches. Nothing we can do about this, apart from asking for a replacement. What concerns us here is the second issue.

2. Modern PSUs operate at variable frequency. When they are lightly loaded they operate at just a few hundred hertz, while when they are heavily loaded this increases into a few dozen kilohertz. The problem lies in the transition from low to high frequency.
In order to sustain a reasonable transient response timeframe, the output filtering capacitors of the PSU, as well as the input filtering capacitors of the load (in this case the load is the GPU) also double as hold-up capacitors for the load, for when the operating frequency of the PSU switches from low to high.
Unfortunately the way GPU manufacturers and PSU manufacturers interpret the ATX specification when it comes to transient response requirements differs, so the combined capacitance on the GPU input filtering capacitors and PSU output filtering capacitors is usually not enough.
When that is the case and there is a major sudden load from the GPU, all the capacitors on the +12v circuit end up emptying, voltage drops significantly, current increases dramatically, and when you are lucky, the PSU protections kick in in time and save the day (black screen). When you are not lucky, the protections take too much time, do not kick-in in time, and the GPU is physically damaged. When that happens, if you are lucky, just fuses get fried, if you are less lucky, FETs on the VRM get fried too, and if you are really unlucky, the GPU die gets fried. The worse part is, that even though some PSUs do actually have enough output capacitance to handle the transition, this comes at a cost. The high capacitance capacitors on PSUs are usually the wet electrolytic ones, and those can take extremely variable frequencies and extremely variable current without problem, but they cannot handle both simultaneously without significant hit to their lifespan. When put at such harsh conditions, their expected life decreases tenfold! So a wet electrolytic expected to last 10-15 years, would only last 1 or 2 years under such conditions without going out of spec and damaging our load.
In order to mitigate this issue, you want to increase the hold-up capacitance on your circuit, and since doing that with every PSU out there is impossible, the only way to do it reliably is by increasing the input capacitance on the GPU itself. This will not only increase compatibility with the PSUs out there, but will also save the card from the physical damage the lack in capacitance would cause under the circumstances.
NVIDIA expects the PSUs out there to deliver their power about twice as fast as they actually do. So doubling the size of the 16v 270uf input capacitors to 16v 540uf or more (Apaq has 680uf parts that fit the bill) should fix the power delivery issues, assuming the card uses the standard power limit. For cards with higher power limit (whatever uses a third 8-pin PCIE connector, like the FTW3), this should be increased even further to accommodate the increased power limit, meaning triple the capacitor size at 16v 810uf (Apaq has 16v 820uf parts that meet this requirement) to be safe.

... that is pretty much it.

If anyone fron the engineering department sees this, let me know if it ends up helping.
post edited by Michapolys - 2022/01/09 13:59:03
#32
ty_ger07
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/09 17:05:26 (permalink)
Michapolys
Alright, here goes:

There are currently two issues affecting modern high power GPUs, one relatively minor and one relatively major:

1. The minor issue is that some PSUs have misconfigured controllers, resulting in voltage regulation going haywire under some circumstances. The protections kick in, resulting in black screen. Units like the Seasonic Prime and Silverstone Strider Titanium were known to be affected and they were reportedly fixed on newer batches. Nothing we can do about this, apart from asking for a replacement. What concerns us here is the second issue.

2. Modern PSUs operate at variable frequency. When they are lightly loaded they operate at just a few hundred hertz, while when they are heavily loaded this increases into a few dozen kilohertz. The problem lies in the transition from low to high frequency.
In order to sustain a reasonable transient response timeframe, the output filtering capacitors of the PSU, as well as the input filtering capacitors of the load (in this case the load is the GPU) also double as hold-up capacitors for the load, for when the operating frequency of the PSU switches from low to high.
Unfortunately the way GPU manufacturers and PSU manufacturers interpret the ATX specification when it comes to transient response requirements differs, so the combined capacitance on the GPU input filtering capacitors and PSU output filtering capacitors is usually not enough.
When that is the case and there is a major sudden load from the GPU, all the capacitors on the +12v circuit end up emptying, voltage drops significantly, current increases dramatically, and when you are lucky, the PSU protections kick in in time and save the day (black screen). When you are not lucky, the protections take too much time, do not kick-in in time, and the GPU is physically damaged. When that happens, if you are lucky, just fuses get fried, if you are less lucky, FETs on the VRM get fried too, and if you are really unlucky, the GPU die gets fried. The worse part is, that even though some PSUs do actually have enough output capacitance to handle the transition, this comes at a cost. The high capacitance capacitors on PSUs are usually the wet electrolytic ones, and those can take extremely variable frequencies and extremely variable current without problem, but they cannot handle both simultaneously without significant hit to their lifespan. When put at such harsh conditions, their expected life decreases tenfold! So a wet electrolytic expected to last 10-15 years, would only last 1 or 2 years under such conditions without going out of spec and damaging our load.
In order to mitigate this issue, you want to increase the hold-up capacitance on your circuit, and since doing that with every PSU out there is impossible, the only way to do it reliably is by increasing the input capacitance on the GPU itself. This will not only increase compatibility with the PSUs out there, but will also save the card from the physical damage the lack in capacitance would cause under the circumstances.
NVIDIA expects the PSUs out there to deliver their power about twice as fast as they actually do. So doubling the size of the 16v 270uf input capacitors to 16v 540uf or more (Apaq has 680uf parts that fit the bill) should fix the power delivery issues, assuming the card uses the standard power limit. For cards with higher power limit (whatever uses a third 8-pin PCIE connector, like the FTW3), this should be increased even further to accommodate the increased power limit, meaning triple the capacitor size at 16v 810uf (Apaq has 16v 820uf parts that meet this requirement) to be safe.

... that is pretty much it.

If anyone fron the engineering department sees this, let me know if it ends up helping.

And then there are all the other failures (the majority) which have nothing to do with the PSU and are instead related to the fact that MVIDIA's power monitoring is averaging based, allows spikes which exceed the video card VRM's current capacity, and the VRM's hardware protection was purposely disabled.

That's pretty much it, and that's the real problem.

As you probably know, lots of capacitance is not desirable for all situations. Responsiveness with low capacitance can be much better. I don't know if I believe you that any power supply operates at just a couple hundred hertz at low load, but regardless, you could have one of these graphics cards hooked up to the most ideal battery and still have it pop and fail. See the problem is that a transition from low load to high load doesn't chop a current spike when you are only monitoring and limiting average power. In the most ideal world with the most perfect power supply, the underlying design problem can still cause the video card to fail.

That's the problem.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/01/09 19:04:20

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#33
schulmaster
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/09 17:59:00 (permalink)
ty_ger07

And then there are all the other failures (the majority) which have nothing to do with the PSU and are instead related to the fact that MVIDIA's power monitoring is averaging based, allows spikes which exceed the video card VRM's current capacity, and the VRM's hardware protection was purposely disabled.

That's pretty much it, and that's the real problem.


This is leaving all the Fan3 boys(and girls and others) out in the cold. Don't lose sight of the systemic failures that are foremost a result of EVGA's decisions alone.

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#34
Michapolys
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/09 22:04:43 (permalink)
ty_ger07
And then there are all the other failures (the majority) which have nothing to do with the PSU and are instead related to the fact that MVIDIA's power monitoring is averaging based, allows spikes which exceed the video card VRM's current capacity, and the VRM's hardware protection was purposely disabled.

That's pretty much it, and that's the real problem.


No.
#35
ty_ger07
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/10 04:42:24 (permalink)
Michapolys
ty_ger07
And then there are all the other failures (the majority) which have nothing to do with the PSU and are instead related to the fact that MVIDIA's power monitoring is averaging based, allows spikes which exceed the video card VRM's current capacity, and the VRM's hardware protection was purposely disabled.

That's pretty much it, and that's the real problem.


No.

Yes.

When you jump up from 100 watts to higher load, if your average power limit is 450 watts, what is your maximum power spike? Lots more. There is absolutely no monitoring or limit of spikes. If you exceed the VRM's current handling capability, eventually they fry. The VRM's hardware OCP was purposely set way too high because it would trigger too often. So, they are helpless against this problem. If you are lucky, the VRM's OCP will trigger and you will get a 100% fan black screen, but since the OCP was purposely set too high, often it is too late and damage has already been done.

https://youtu.be/rRp75YdLaq4
https://youtu.be/iTpKXJk8cAc
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/01/10 04:55:34

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#36
Michapolys
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/10 05:46:10 (permalink)
ty_ger07
When you jump up from 100 watts to higher load, if your average power limit is 450 watts, what is your maximum power spike? Lots more. There is absolutely no monitoring or limit of spikes. If you exceed the VRM's current handling capability, eventually they fry. The VRM's hardware OCP was purposely set way too high because it would trigger too often. So, they are helpless against this problem. If you are lucky, the VRM's OCP will trigger and you will get a 100% fan black screen, but since the OCP was purposely set too high, often it is too late and damage has already been done.

https://youtu.be/rRp75YdLaq4
https://youtu.be/iTpKXJk8cAc


No.
#37
ty_ger07
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/10 05:54:10 (permalink)
Michapolys
ty_ger07
When you jump up from 100 watts to higher load, if your average power limit is 450 watts, what is your maximum power spike? Lots more. There is absolutely no monitoring or limit of spikes. If you exceed the VRM's current handling capability, eventually they fry. The VRM's hardware OCP was purposely set way too high because it would trigger too often. So, they are helpless against this problem. If you are lucky, the VRM's OCP will trigger and you will get a 100% fan black screen, but since the OCP was purposely set too high, often it is too late and damage has already been done.

https://youtu.be/rRp75YdLaq4
https://youtu.be/iTpKXJk8cAc


No.

Yes.

Do you have any interest in having a constructive conversation based on facts? It seems that you have made up your mind ahead of time, have tried to justify your opinion based only on whatever evidence or claims that support your hypothesis, and are irrationally objecting all other information and evidence. There are multiple claims you made which I disagree with, or I think lack evidence, or I think the evidence doesn't make sense for the hypothesis, but I don't have interest in arguing that until we can at least first agree to use evidence in order to come to a conclusion versus trying to make a evidence conform to a hypothesis.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/01/10 12:29:24

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#38
bltran
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/10 07:25:11 (permalink)
Im facing another issue at the moment. Since my card is "denied" from the RMA process for not having the stock fans, it's being returned to me. Although the CSR was not able to give me a tracking number on the shipment...or even tell me if the package is insured. I have no idea where my 2000 USD brick is right now....I've been out of a card now for close to a month. EVGA went from "dude get EVGA they'll always get your back in case you need to RMA" to "I don't know about them...they denied me an RMA on a 2k GPU because i didnt send in 20 dollars worth of fans. Also i've had to spend over 300 dollars in shipping fees now on this flagship card of theirs."
 
 
#39
canhusrefoglu
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/20 00:29:42 (permalink)
So today I got my replacement card. Just installed it and works ok for now. Though gotta say, the initial momentary red light at the startup almost gave me a heart attack. Only issue is, despite my note, EVGA sent me another rev 0.1 card. So basically another ticking time bomb in my rig.
 
Starting on Monday I'll try my luck at Denver Micro Center. Wish me luck! 
 
And once again, I'd like to thank @rjohnson11 (not sure how to actually tag someone) for noticing my comments and keeping the ball rolling faster. 
post edited by canhusrefoglu - 2022/01/20 00:31:29
#40
onepumpchump10
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/23 20:27:40 (permalink)
canhusrefoglu
So today I got my replacement card. Just installed it and works ok for now. Though gotta say, the initial momentary red light at the startup almost gave me a heart attack. Only issue is, despite my note, EVGA sent me another rev 0.1 card. So basically another ticking time bomb in my rig.
 
Starting on Monday I'll try my luck at Denver Micro Center. Wish me luck! 
 
And once again, I'd like to thank @rjohnson11 (not sure how to actually tag someone) for noticing my comments and keeping the ball rolling faster. 




 
how do u check the rev on the card.  my card just crapped itself. was playing new world, head a weird pop, singla lost.  checked under my ekwb backplate and saw the red light.  will have to RMA it now, and hoping they are not shipping cards that were from damn 2 years ago.  this is so frustrating.  now i have to get in touch with my brother to get the receipt since he bought it, and try to locate and find the fans and back plate since i put full ekwb on it.  aside from being without a card so much work now to replace a horribly designed card as many ppl seem to have had/still having!!!!
post edited by Sajin - 2022/01/23 22:21:44
#41
rjbarker
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/23 20:41:25 (permalink)
^^^ Yep what mine did..."pop n poof" Red Light District....removed Water Block, re-install Air Cooler....RMA went smoothly..and quickly.
 
What kinda earks me is we pay around $2K CDN for a brand new Card...thing last 3 months...then I get a replacement "refurb" that I know nothing about...no history..what was the repair on this Card now in my $6k system....obviously EVGA's "warranty" includes replacing a defective product with a "repaired defective product"....would be a nice touch if there was some sort of "repair history card" included with the refurb they send us.
Refurb is working as it should...when I took the Air Cooler off to install the Vector Block I could tell the Card had never been taken apart before (based upon the hardness of the thermal putty n grease...like hardened ceramic), so who knows, maybe someone simply bricked the vbios on it....
 
The "pop" I heard was likely a pcb fuse within the power delivery....there was absolutely no visible damage on the pcb.....
 
post edited by rjbarker - 2022/01/23 20:47:33

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#42
onepumpchump10
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/01/23 20:48:04 (permalink)
rjbarker
^^^ Yep what mine did..."pop n poof" Red Light District....removed Water Block, re-install Air Cooler....RMA went smoothly..and quickly.
 
What kinda earks me is we pay around $2K CDN for a brand new Card...thing last 3 months...then I get a replacement "refurb" that I know nothing about...no history..what was the repair on this Card now in my $6k system....obviously EVGA's "warranty" includes replacing a defective product with a "repaired defective product"....would be a nice touch if there was some sort of "repair history card" included with the refurb they send us.
Refurb is working as it should...when I took the Air Cooler off to install the Vector Block I could tell the Card had never been taken apart before (based upon the hardness of the thermal putty n grease...like hardened ceramic), so who knows, maybe someone simply bricked the vbios on it....
 
The "pop" I heard was likely a pcb fuse within the power delivery....there was absolutely no visible damage on the pcb.....
 


  so they are basically not sending cards with new revisions to fix the problem that it had??
#43
firerain
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/02/08 11:29:11 (permalink)
Michapolys
Alright, here goes:

There are currently two issues affecting modern high power GPUs, one relatively minor and one relatively major:

1. The minor issue is that some PSUs have misconfigured controllers, resulting in voltage regulation going haywire under some circumstances. The protections kick in, resulting in black screen. Units like the Seasonic Prime and Silverstone Strider Titanium were known to be affected and they were reportedly fixed on newer batches. Nothing we can do about this, apart from asking for a replacement. What concerns us here is the second issue.

2. Modern PSUs operate at variable frequency. When they are lightly loaded they operate at just a few hundred hertz, while when they are heavily loaded this increases into a few dozen kilohertz. The problem lies in the transition from low to high frequency.
In order to sustain a reasonable transient response timeframe, the output filtering capacitors of the PSU, as well as the input filtering capacitors of the load (in this case the load is the GPU) also double as hold-up capacitors for the load, for when the operating frequency of the PSU switches from low to high.
Unfortunately the way GPU manufacturers and PSU manufacturers interpret the ATX specification when it comes to transient response requirements differs, so the combined capacitance on the GPU input filtering capacitors and PSU output filtering capacitors is usually not enough.
When that is the case and there is a major sudden load from the GPU, all the capacitors on the +12v circuit end up emptying, voltage drops significantly, current increases dramatically, and when you are lucky, the PSU protections kick in in time and save the day (black screen). When you are not lucky, the protections take too much time, do not kick-in in time, and the GPU is physically damaged. When that happens, if you are lucky, just fuses get fried, if you are less lucky, FETs on the VRM get fried too, and if you are really unlucky, the GPU die gets fried. The worse part is, that even though some PSUs do actually have enough output capacitance to handle the transition, this comes at a cost. The high capacitance capacitors on PSUs are usually the wet electrolytic ones, and those can take extremely variable frequencies and extremely variable current without problem, but they cannot handle both simultaneously without significant hit to their lifespan. When put at such harsh conditions, their expected life decreases tenfold! So a wet electrolytic expected to last 10-15 years, would only last 1 or 2 years under such conditions without going out of spec and damaging our load.
In order to mitigate this issue, you want to increase the hold-up capacitance on your circuit, and since doing that with every PSU out there is impossible, the only way to do it reliably is by increasing the input capacitance on the GPU itself. This will not only increase compatibility with the PSUs out there, but will also save the card from the physical damage the lack in capacitance would cause under the circumstances.
NVIDIA expects the PSUs out there to deliver their power about twice as fast as they actually do. So doubling the size of the 16v 270uf input capacitors to 16v 540uf or more (Apaq has 680uf parts that fit the bill) should fix the power delivery issues, assuming the card uses the standard power limit. For cards with higher power limit (whatever uses a third 8-pin PCIE connector, like the FTW3), this should be increased even further to accommodate the increased power limit, meaning triple the capacitor size at 16v 810uf (Apaq has 16v 820uf parts that meet this requirement) to be safe.

... that is pretty much it.

If anyone fron the engineering department sees this, let me know if it ends up helping.

There is one more miner one and that's there is something wrong with some of the fans. A bad batch or bad installation. But certain fans just go bad and some work great.
 
also x1 is plagued with problems.

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#44
RogueMaster
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/02/08 13:27:32 (permalink)
Bah... double post due to fat fingers syndrome... LOL
post edited by RogueMaster - 2022/02/08 13:34:38


#45
RogueMaster
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Re: 3090 Hybrid Red Light of Death and my rant 2022/02/08 13:33:17 (permalink)
Boy those Rev .01 cards sure do get around. :/


#46
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