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Helpful Replypump pwm reading

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Krony
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2011/03/17 11:08:07 (permalink)
Hey, finally got my mpc355 wired up to my fan controler so i can slow it down a bit to save my ears :P
All works fine and everything except the reading i get from the cpu header which is connected to the pump, using any program or even in the bios if i slow it down to about 2/3 speed i get all sorts of readings from 1500rpm to 38000rpm lol and if i take it a bit lower it shows 0rpm, i know it's running at a fast enough speed and i was under the impression that if the cpu header read that the fan was not spinning the pc would shut down for safety, it won't boot past the bios if it's running at about 1/2 speed (maybe 2000rpm) but if i speed it up to boot and then slow it down the pc still runs even tho the cpu header thinks the fan has stopped, just wondered if anyone else had similar issues.


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ty_ger07
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/18 20:41:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Krony

Hey, finally got my mpc355 wired up to my fan controler so i can slow it down a bit to save my ears :P

 
Fan controller?  What fan controller?  Motherboard header? Fan controller?  Proper 4-pin PWM fan controller?

All works fine and everything except the reading i get from the cpu header which is connected to the pump, using any program or even in the bios if i slow it down to about 2/3 speed i get all sorts of readings from 1500rpm to 38000rpm lol and if i take it a bit lower it shows 0rpm, i know it's running at a fast enough speed and i was under the impression that if the cpu header read that the fan was not spinning the pc would shut down for safety, it won't boot past the bios if it's running at about 1/2 speed (maybe 2000rpm) but if i speed it up to boot and then slow it down the pc still runs even tho the cpu header thinks the fan has stopped, just wondered if anyone else had similar issues.

 
EDIT:  Look at next post first.  This post assumed that you have the MCP355 pump with both blue and green wire going to fan header.  If you have pump style with only green wire going to fan header, this post doesn't apply to you.

It sounds like either your fan controller is not the proper fan controller for your needs, or the pump's switching FET and tachometer circuitry is not working properly.   If you are using a motherboard fan header as a "fan controller", then I would say that the pump's tachometer and switching FET circuitry is badly designed.  You should not normally have a problem with this configuration.
 
If you are using an external fan controller to adjust the pump's speed, then I would say that is the cause of your problem.  It sounds like the fan controller you are using is providing PWM power to the +12vdc input to the pump which is causing your tachometer output signal to be corrupted.  A proper 4-pin PWM fan controller will provide stable power input into the +12vdc input of the pump and will control the pump speed via the PWM input (the reason why you need a 4-wire fan controller for proper operation).
 
If you are using a fan controller other than the motherboard to control the pump speed, I would recommend that you stop using the fan controller and instead start using only the motherboard for fan speed adjustment.  The pump has a 4-pin molex connector which is supposed to be connected directly to the power supply for stable voltage input.  Having an unstable voltage input (from your fan controller) is causing your problem.  The pump is meant to be controlled by the fan header connector (the connector with a blue and green wire).  You should plug the pump into a 4-pin molex plug for stable power to the pump and then control and monitor the pump's speed with the motherboard's fan header and BIOS.
 

 

post edited by ty_ger07 - 2011/03/18 21:38:55

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ty_ger07
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/18 21:09:03 (permalink)
Wait!  Hold on!
 
Which specific model of mcp355 do you have?  I see that there are a couple styles available.
 
The pump has a fan header wire.  Does that fan header wire only have one wire (blue) going to it or does it have two wires (blue and green) going to it?
 
If the pump's fan header only has one wire (blue) going to it, you are basically stuck.  The only way to control the pump speed is to adjust the +12vdc input to the pump in the way I recommended you not to.  Controlling the 12vdc input with a fan controller will destroy the tachometer signal as I said and as you are experiencing.  You will just have to live with that side effect if you are determined to slow the pump down.
 
If the pump's header has two wires (blue and green) going to it, control the pump speed with the header.  The blue wire is tachometer feedback and the green wire is PWM ouput to the pump.  The PWM output wire controls the pump's speed via a switching FET and circuitry in the pump.  This style pump can be slowed down without corrupting tachometer feedback because the power input to the pump can remain constant while still adjusting pump speed via PWM wire.

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Krony
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 02:32:05 (permalink)
I use the Laptron fc2 to control the pump, the fan header wire has 1 blue wire and it's just to give a reading not to control it, i control it using the Lamptron, the fan controller uses 3 pin pwm and the pump as u know uses a 4 pin molex but only 2 pins are used so only 2 pins on the 3 pin pwm are used too and thats the 12v and the ground, as i said it works fine it's just the reading that is fked but i guess thats all i am stuck with atm, i only slow the pump down for basic web browsing and forum trolling :P as it can be a bit annoying, soon as i put my Sennheiser PC350's on for gaming i hear nothing else :)


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ty_ger07
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 04:44:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
This is part of another post I just wrote last night:
 

The issue is caused by a design limitation.  The only way to control the speed of a 3-wire fan is to adjust the power input (or ground input) to the fan.  Power input adjustment is utilized by means of varying voltage potential [PWM].  ...  The tachometer feedback circuitry inside the fan is created by means of an inductance controlled circuit which makes and breaks connection between power input and tachometer ouput as a magnet passes by the tachometer sensor device.  If the power input is of varying potential, it causes the tachometer output to be corrupted...
  
Let me illustrate:


 
So, that is basically the problem you are seeing.  Your fan controller is providing a pulsating DC power input to the pump's +12vdc input (yellow wire) to decrease the pump's speed.  The pulsating DC signal is superimposed on top of the tachometer ouput signal which corrupts it and causes the tachometer ouput signal (blue wire) to be misinterpreted by the motherboard.
 
There is another way to slow the pump down to a steady speed without using a fan controller and without corrupting the tachometer signal.  This other method requires switching pins in the pump's molex power connector so that it receives its power from a source other than 12vdc.  If you move the pins around in the connector, you can provide either 5 volts or 7 volts to the pump instead of 12 volts.
 

 
There is another method of controlling the pump using PWM input to the pump via a fan controller which will not necessarily destroy the tachometer output signal, but it will require that you have (basic) electronics knowledge and soldering skills.  Basically, you can incorporate a circuit between the fan controller output and the pump power input which will swap the PWM input to the pump over to the ground side instead of the positive side and may cause the tachometer output signal to be more usable.
 
You would use this design as a reference:
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115752
 
This is how you would use that circuit:

 
You would have to make sure that the irl530n MOSFET used in his diagram is capable of outputing the amount of current your pump requires.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2011/03/19 05:14:34

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Krony
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 05:15:26 (permalink)
That is a pain tho every time i wanna change it :P
Thx for ur help anyway, i'll maybe get some sort of flow sensor for peace of mind.


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ty_ger07
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 05:29:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Krony

That is a pain tho every time i wanna change it :P


You could incorporate a selector switch accessible from the outside of your case to select full pump speed (12v) or decreased pump speed (5v).
 

 
I'm just showing you some options.

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Krony
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 05:42:08 (permalink)
Yea i always thought fan controllers used a variable resister that just dropped the voltage not a pulsating input, i'll definatly look into what ur talking about as i only need a 2 setting switch, 1 for 12v max for gaming benching and another for maybe 7v for general pc use.


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ty_ger07
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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 05:55:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Krony

Yea i always thought fan controllers used a variable resister that just dropped the voltage not a pulsating input ...


No, almost all fan / motor controllers use PWM (pulsating DC of some form) to control speed.  You could control the speed straight through a variable resistor (potentiometer), but the potentiometer would have to be designed to handle high amperage and would have to be designed for very low resistance and very low sensitivity (low amount of resistance change from max to min setting).
 
The primary reasons why a simple potentiometer are not directly used to control speed is that they provide a less efficient method of speed adjustment, will get hot, and won't provide a linear speed adjustment.  Basically, if you use only a potentiometer to adjust resistance in the circuit, as you decrease the speed setting (increase resistance), the speed will decrease almost exponentially.  This will make the speed control close to max not very sensitive; and the speed control close to min exceedingly sensitive/touchy.  Also, the pump / fan / motor being controlled by PWM can run at a lower RPM without stalling than the same device could if it were controlled by resistance adjustment only.
 
Primary advantages of PWM versus just using a potentiometer:
More efficient
Observed speed more closely relates to expected results (more linear)
Slightly less power is required and slightly less heat produced
A lower RPM can be obtained without motor stalling
Does not place high amperage load through potentiometer (potentiometers usually burn out easier than transistors)
 
Krony 

i only need a 2 setting switch, 1 for 12v max for gaming benching and another for maybe 7v for general pc use.


Yes, you could make the switch control 12v or 7v (instead of 12v or 5v), but the solution is a little messier since it involves having both ground and a power source going to the same switch (generally not recommended).  It is fine to do, but if the switch fails internally and the two connections bridge at the same time, it will create a short.  But I guess the other design would short 5v to 12v which is equally bad.  Either way, a short should cause the PSU to shut off and should do no damage to your computer.
 
Selector to control between 12v and 7v.

 
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2011/03/19 06:13:23

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Re:pump pwm reading 2011/03/19 06:44:05 (permalink)
@ty_ger07 - I recommended a BR for you.
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