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dual radiator push-pull question

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sethleigh
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2016/07/14 03:42:00 (permalink)
Hi all. I'm designing and building my own wood computer case in which I plan to have two 2x120 radiators positioned side by side, with a 2 or 3 inch gap between them. A fan will push air from outside the case into one radiator, the air flows into the sealed space between them, and then is pulled out through the second radiator and exhausted outside the case. 
 
With humble apologies for an ASCII illustration of this, rather than some CAD rendering, it will look thus:
 
              -> | fan|rad  ->  rad|fan | ->
 
This will therefor be a push/pull configuration where the air is flowing through two radiators rather than just one. I acknowledge that the air coming out of the first radiator will be somewhat warmed, and therefore will cool the second radiator less than it cooled the first, but I believe that with sufficient airflow through them both the overall performance will still be quite good.
 
I considered using a single 4x120 radiator instead of this doubled-up 2x120 configuration, but the 2x2x120 configuration will allow the computer case to be more compact, which is one of my priorities.
 
Question: has anyone used a setup like this before? How was the cooling performance compared with a single 2x120, or compared to a single 4x120?
 
More on the planned build: My machine currently has one 6-core Xeon 5680 and one EVGA 1080 SC. I plan to upgrade the cpu to a new 6-core i7 6850 in the near future, and leave the door open to adding a second 1080 SC in SLI. I plan to have water blocks on the cpu, the gpu, and the motherboard chipset. I have lately been overclocking the cpu and gpu, but only moderately. I refuse to add voltage and drive up power consumption very much, so this will not likely ever be pushed to very aggressive overclocks.
 
The configuration I envision will dump the heat from the most heat-producing components of the machine directly to the outside of the case without it ever entering the space where the motherboard is, so I believe that moderate case airflow (1x140mm intake, 1x140mm exhaust) will be sufficient to keep the main interior of the case near ambient. The power supply will be positioned at the bottom of the case where it will draw fresh air in through a port in the bottom of the case and exhaust it out the back of the case, likewise not exposing the main case interior to hot air.
 
 
I'm definitely interested in anyone's comments or experience regarding this setup.

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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/14 09:31:12 (permalink)
    I have run a setup like that, granted not in a long time, but I have run one.  Mine was cooling an 930, VRM, full cover mb block, and 2 580's.  There are 2 things to making this work well.
    1)  Run the rads in SERIES ***NOT*** in parallel.  I tried both ways, and series cooled substantially better.
    2)  Make sure you have a fan between the rads as well, it helps to maintain good static pressure, in fact I ran my setup with ONLY fans between the rads.
     
    Is the room it's in air conditioned, preferably near the vent?  If so, tubing for the rads can make an overall difference in temps (tested by me some years back).  If cold air is blowing on it, then tube the rad that is pulling air through the sealed portion first, then the water is already cooled, the it hits the radiator with the cold air blowing on it, and it is brought down to much cooler.  However if this room isn't overly cool, or not AC'd at all, it really does not matter which way you tube it.  Tested the same system in my instance in 2 rooms, where it permanently resided at, and the work bench.  I was experimenting :) I didn't know anyone else with this config, so I wanted to see what would happen.  With the AC blowing on it, tubing it so the rad under the AC was last dropped my temps about 5c.  In the non AC room, no change at all.
    In my setup I was using MCR320 stackables, originally with Ultra Kaze 38mm fans between them, then after some failures I went to San Ace 38mm fans in the middle and never looked back.  This was all on a D5 pump.  For the record, the 930 was at 4.2, CPU was averaging about 37c under gaming loads for CPU bound games,and 44 under stress testing, and my 580s topped out at 44 and 47 when benching, a barely stable OC and tons of voltage, mostly in gaming, they were high 30's.
    The sandwich rads are not most peoples favorites, but they CAN work well when you are limited on space.  It is always better to have all rads have their own access to outside air though, for ideal cooling.
    #2
    owcraftsman
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/14 09:45:02 (permalink)
    Way to much to consider here to make answering your question a qualified answer. Use paint and give us a general lay out of things like top, side, & front view followed by a list of components then I could give you a bit more than general idea. For example is the 1080SC have blower fan? Is the orientation of the rads front to back side to side? etc. If you are building it yourself then I'd consider a layout that doesn't dump hot air into the other Rad? Fin count of the rads or model would also be helpful. Get the drift?
     

     
     

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    #3
    sethleigh
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/14 17:42:24 (permalink)
    Ok, I pulled out Paint and knocked up this quick sketch. Naturally it's not to scale, and I haven't firmed up exact placement of things. This really just shows the overall concept. I don't know yet what model of radiators I will go with, fin count, etc. My experience so far with watercooling (in recent years) is limited to running my current cpu off a Swiftech H220X.

    I am naively going on the assumption that two 2x120 or perhaps two 3x120 radiators if the design fits them will be more than enough cooling capacity for my machine. I haven't attempted to analyze heat loads or anything else like that. I'm basing this assumption on rigs I've seen others post online, factoring in that almost all of them also overclock their machines much more aggressively than I do. I don't bother adding tons of voltage, raising the power like crazy, trying to find the absolute possible maximum and then backing off a tad until I achieve the illusion of stability. I overclock moderately in order to capture much of what's available before the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
     
    This drawing still shows my original idea to have the air flow in one side through the first radiator and out the other side through the second radiator. I like the idea you posted having an intake port on the front of the case and vent both radiators out of their respective sides, so they both see fresh air. While guaranteeing ambient air to both radiators sounds like a no brainer, I'm not sure that it necessarily makes much difference. With sufficient airflow through the radiators the air coming out of the first radiator might not be that much warmer than ambient.
     


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    zophar
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/14 19:29:11 (permalink)
    I ran a stacked setup for a while on my build. And while it performed just fine, I decided to change it this last go around with loop maintenance. I removed the stack and placed 1 of the 2 rads outside the case off of the back. And with all the same components I dropped about 3 or 4 degrees on my GPU's while folding. Here is my thread when I posed this question so you can see the answers http://forums.evga.com/m/tm.aspx?m=1835855

    Hope this helps.


    #5
    ty_ger07
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 14:02:45 (permalink)
    If at all possible, do:
    -> Fan | Rad | -> Fan | Rad | ->

    If you can avoid it, don't do:
    -> Fan | Rad | -> | Rad | Fan ->

    The second radiator will cool pess efficiently if yiu have a fan pulling air through it than if you have a fan pushing air through it. Higher static pressure equals denser air equals better cooling. Sucking air through the radiator makes the fan louder and creates a low pressure zone inside the radiator fins which causes less heat transfer.
    #6
    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 14:23:36 (permalink)
    ^^ More good info for you
     
    Now I did have a thought.  Since you are building this from scratch, I would consider doing it this way instead.
     
    As I do not have a diagram written as this was a random brain storm, here is my thought.  Your current setup, for descriptions sake, will be a sealed chamber flowing air east to west, in through the eat rad through the chamber and out through the western rad.
    Now this will function similar, but need one extra hole.  I would make a spot on the north wall, for 4 120mm fans as the input, and have bot the east and west rad being exhausts.  You get the dual rad benefit, but without the issue of recycled warm air.
     
    Of course this is subjected to several factors like logistically will it fit, and how wide is the chamber etc, but I think this is a possible fix that gives you all the advantages you were wanting and none of the potential challenges.
    #7
    sethleigh
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 14:42:09 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    If at all possible, do:
    -> Fan | Rad | -> Fan | Rad | ->

    If you can avoid it, don't do:
    -> Fan | Rad | -> | Rad | Fan ->

    The second radiator will cool pess efficiently if yiu have a fan pulling air through it than if you have a fan pushing air through it. Higher static pressure equals denser air equals better cooling. Sucking air through the radiator makes the fan louder and creates a low pressure zone inside the radiator fins which causes less heat transfer.

    Yeah that's an interesting thought. Based on the drawing owcraftsman posted, DaveB described in text, and another user sent me privately in an PM, I'm thinking now of having a large opening in the front of the case to let air into the chamber, and having the fans on both radiators on the inside pushing air out through their respective radiators. The user who PMed me has radiators set up like this, with the addition that both of his radiators are also push-pull setups, which for my purposes it way overkill. 
     
    I've been looking at my current rig which has a 2x120 Swiftech H220X cooling just the cpu, and looking at dimensions of things like the motherboard, power supply, the current radiator, etc. and I think I will be able to design my wooden case to be fairly close in dimension to my current case, though with major changes in placement and orientation. It looks like I'll also have enough room to make it two 3x120s instead of two 2x120s.
     
    If two 3x120 radiators ends up being way overkill, that will be a good thing, because it means I'll be able to keep the fans running at very low speed, and that will mean the system is quiet. A quiet system, even under full gaming load, is pretty high on my priorities list.

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    sethleigh
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 15:48:52 (permalink)
    For anyone interested in the actual construction concept for this wood case, I've done some experimentation already to test out the idea I had for the physical case construction, and it's looking really good so far. I wanted to bend, flex, and otherwise try out whether the construction I had in mind would be sufficiently strong, and it appears to be just fine.
     
    The primary "skin" of the case will be 1/4" baltic birch plywood. This skin will be attached to a framework made from narrow strips of 3/8" baltic birch plywood. The strips will have rabbets cut onto their edge so they can be joined with a simple overlap. One of the pics below shows this. I use a miter saw to cut 45 degree angles onto the ends of each "beam" in such a way that three of these beam ends can fit together to make a corner for the case. The 1/4" baltic birch skin is glued onto this, cleaned up at the joints with a router, and then the edges rounded over with a 1/2" radius roundover bit.

    The case will have removable side panels made from the 1/4" ply that will overlap slightly onto the 3/8" edge beams and be fastened with screws. Any holes or ports cut into case will have their edges rounded over using a 1/4" roundover bit.

    I'm planning on covering this red tolex, and using corner-strengthening metal caps. It will look very similar to an electric guitar amp cabinet I made before.


     

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    TECH_DaveB
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 15:49:50 (permalink)
    In my opinion, there is no such thing as overkill, it's just more overhead, and planning for future models and upgrades.
     
    I think that will look good, work good, and be pretty quiet.  Also from my own experience with thin rads, and I have used a few, the MCRs tend top work very well and also tend to be very quiet, less whistling in the fins or other turbulence noises than some of the others of that form factor.
    #10
    sethleigh
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    Re: dual radiator push-pull question 2016/07/15 15:59:30 (permalink)
    Quick shot of the electric guitar amp cabinet whose look I am duplicating for this computer case, with obvious adjustments for functionality. It shows a removable panel held on by screws, the black metal corner reinforcement hardware, the rounded edges, the red tolex covering, etc. I will also have carrying handles built into the side, but they'll be smaller and go in less deep into the sides of the case than the ones I used for this amp.


     

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