Bowenac
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 06:47:39
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shogon
I didn't know dogs are allowed in stores...I can sympathize for special needs individuals with dogs trained to help with daily activities, but a Police dog isn't the same as that.
And what does that have to do with anything... besides I think K9 officers should be treated the same as an assistant dog. Its a full blown officer, and they get treated as one so should not be looked at as just a dog. That officer should be able to bring the K9 officer with him anywhere they go.
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Bowenac
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 06:56:59
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Found this in another report... Different story but assume same rules apply. "Deputy Fortkamp had been in his office working on a report when Zak was left inside the patrol car. This is not regular protocol. When officers are at the sheriff’s office, dogs are to be inside the building alongside their handler or in the car with the air conditioner running. The initial investigation found that Zak was left inside the car, without it running. As a result, Zak passed away from heat related issues due to the extreme heat inside the car." Think what you want but the dog should have been with him. He didn't go into a store. He was in his office drinking coffee and munching on some donuts while doing some paper work.
post edited by Bowenac - 2012/09/05 06:59:10
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shogon
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 06:57:21
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If a dog isn't allowed in a store, then it isn't allowed, unless there is a special reason as to why the dog needs to accompany you. I think a Officer would have to abide by the rules stated by the store, if it says "No Dogs Allowed" then he has to follow it. Unless you'd think the officer would just not care and do as they wish, but then he would be breaking the laws he is trying to uphold would he not.
I will either find a way, or make one. ٩(๏̯͡๏)۶
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Kanti
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 07:04:52
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'no dogs allowed'
well, it's been nice knowing you sparky...
 Muh 'filiate code: 387JKEF57G
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Bowenac
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 07:14:22
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Has anyone heard anything more on this... I assume we won't will just get tossed away. But I find it odd that they have no idea how long the dog was left in the car, have no idea what the officer was actually doing.
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Bkatt
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 09:12:46
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I do not know about how the cars are set up in that area... but our K9 units down here are Subs with bypasses built into them, that way you can leave the vehicles AC running while out of the vehicle and lock it.
That was his partner of 7the years... there has to be more to this story then they are telling. I have a hard time thinking that he could have let that happen without some other factor involved.
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ki11joy92
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 09:19:45
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If this had happened to someone who wasn't a cop they would be in jail right now. This is unacceptable.
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srtie4k
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 09:38:21
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Some of you guys are a bit under-educated on laws regarding police service dogs. A police dog is not considered a law enforcement officer under the law. You cannot be charged with murder for killing a police dog, although it is a felony in particular states, and there is the possibility of jail time (although I find it unlikely if it happened to be a first attempt). And as was mentioned already, intent must be proven if a conviction is being sought. Here are some of the laws regarding K9 units: http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html
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Bowenac
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 10:27:41
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srtie4k
Some of you guys are a bit under-educated on laws regarding police service dogs. A police dog is not considered a law enforcement officer under the law. You cannot be charged with murder for killing a police dog, although it is a felony in particular states, and there is the possibility of jail time (although I find it unlikely if it happened to be a first attempt). And as was mentioned already, intent must be proven if a conviction is being sought.
Here are some of the laws regarding K9 units:
http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html
That has like 9 states listed and mentions nothing about a K9 not being considered an officer. Are you really trying to say K9 officers are not considered officers? Thats just silly talk... I know this is from wiki but here is a quote. "In most states, a police dog is considered a full-fledged police officer, sometimes even given a badge. As such, most laws find assaulting a police dog to be equal or very similar to assaulting a human officer, and as a result some agencies will deem it acceptable for officers to open fire on a person who is intentionally hurting a police dog, with apparent attempt to kill it. However, this is not a unanimous policy."
post edited by Bowenac - 2012/09/05 10:31:35
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Rudster816
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 11:52:12
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Bowenac
srtie4k
Some of you guys are a bit under-educated on laws regarding police service dogs. A police dog is not considered a law enforcement officer under the law. You cannot be charged with murder for killing a police dog, although it is a felony in particular states, and there is the possibility of jail time (although I find it unlikely if it happened to be a first attempt). And as was mentioned already, intent must be proven if a conviction is being sought.
Here are some of the laws regarding K9 units:
http://www.policek9.com/html/statutes.html
That has like 9 states listed and mentions nothing about a K9 not being considered an officer. Are you really trying to say K9 officers are not considered officers? Thats just silly talk...
I know this is from wiki but here is a quote.
"In most states, a police dog is considered a full-fledged police officer, sometimes even given a badge. As such, most laws find assaulting a police dog to be equal or very similar to assaulting a human officer, and as a result some agencies will deem it acceptable for officers to open fire on a person who is intentionally hurting a police dog, with apparent attempt to kill it. However, this is not a unanimous policy."
Policy\ceremony is irrelevant, it's the law that matters. Even if a State had a law on the books that treated police dogs as legal persons for the sake of criminal law, any sentence imposed by them under such a doctrine would face a very serious 8th amendment challenge. If you actually wan't to claim that a police dog is treated the as a human officer for the purpose of assault\murder\etc, then find the relevant law. You can't just make stuff up expect people accept it at face value.
post edited by Rudster816 - 2012/09/05 11:54:11
[22:00:32] NordicJedi: the only way i can read this chatroom is if i imagine you're all dead  
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ipwnnoobsirl
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 13:34:34
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Bowenac
When the officer shut the door of the cop car his intent was to leave the damn dog in the car... are you illiterate? Some of you people who think he should just get off free are insane. This guy is the biggest POS IMO.
How do you just forget about your partner of 7 years. Would you forget about your 7 year old child and say ahhh he will be ok no need to check on him, its only like 130 degrees in my car thats not bad. People get tickets for leaving there kids in the car for a minute. They go to prison if the child dies 99% of the time.
I am far from illiterate. I am trying to help you understand the LEGAL concept of intent... And it is pretty clear that you do not. I am not using the word "intent" unless I mean it in a legal context. The officer put the dog in the car at some point, right? This is not disputed. Why do you generally shut the door on cars with things inside? So that they don't fall out. Do you want to kill everything that you shut into your car? I hope not! So while at some point he very clearly meant to put his dog in his car, there is probably no intent to kill the dog. I doubt the officer specifically used the back of his car as a death chamber to kill his dog, while he is at work. The short, legal version is... Mens rea must be accompanied by actus reus for someone to be criminally liable ("guilty mind" + "guilty act" = criminal liability). In this case, you would be hard pressed to find either. There will probably be no criminal charges. Of course, you never know what some random prosecutor will do, so there is hope for you if you want to crucify him. This is how the system works, and while you may not understand it, you should be glad that the system works this way. I don't know how he forgot. I wasn't there, and neither were you. It's very easy to point fingers after the fact and think that there's no way that you would have forgotten about the dog... but you don't know. And to answer your question, if you forgot about your 7 year old child, you wouldn't be thinking, "ahhh he will be ok no need to check on him, its only like 130 degrees in my car thats not bad." Do you know why? Because you forgot about him. "They go to prison if the child dies 99% of the time." Where did you get this from? There are many documented cases in which people are not criminally charged for the deaths of their children. I'm assuming this is a made up statistic. Let the cop-hate resume! I just hope that no one here finds themselves in a similar situation, and suddenly realizes that they are not perfect either. And remember.... Bowenac
He was in his office drinking coffee and munching on some donuts while doing some paper work.
Stay classy.
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Bowenac
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 13:44:31
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HAHAHHA Now that I know your using it in LEGAL concept... Never new intent is only a legal concept and only used if it involves a murder. And yes he shut the door and left the dog in the car which he didn't need to do am I right? Or he could have left the windows down. He could have checked on him every once in a while. Don't you find it odd that they have not mentioned just how long the dog was in the car really. Sounds to me like it was a while and they don't want the public to know about it. I am pretty sure it wasn't just a quick run into the donut shop. "They go to prison if the child dies 99% of the time." Where did you get this from? There are many documented cases in which people are not criminally charged for the deaths of their children. I'm assuming this is a made up statistic. Show me your statistic then of more than 1% of people who get no charges... Wouldn't you agree more people get charged for this than not. And yet they arn't doing anything to this OFFICER because he is an OFFICER. And like many others have stated if this was a regular citizen he would have been arrested already.
post edited by Bowenac - 2012/09/05 13:49:14
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ipwnnoobsirl
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 14:21:02
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Bowenac
Show me your statistic then of more than 1% of people who get no charges... Wouldn't you agree more people get charged for this than not. And yet they arn't doing anything to this OFFICER because he is an OFFICER. And like many others have stated if this was a regular citizen he would have been arrested already.
That is not how logic (or our legal system) works. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion (your statistical claim), and it is dishonest to make a claim and then ask others to prove your made up statistic. If your claim really WAS "more people get charged for this than not," then I would believe that is more realistic. You would still need proof, but it's more believable. Bowenac
And yet they arn't doing anything to this OFFICER because he is an OFFICER. And like many others have stated if this was a regular citizen he would have been arrested already.
Officers are charged with crimes (and arrested) too. I will make it really easy... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=officer+charged I think it is very clear that you do not like the police... Which is fine. Just try to be honest and understand that the things you are saying are probably out of anger and may not necessarily be true. EDIT: Typo.
post edited by ipwnnoobsirl - 2012/09/05 14:23:20
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Rudster816
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 14:31:38
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Bowenac
HAHAHHA Now that I know your using it in LEGAL concept... Never new intent is only a legal concept and only used if it involves a murder.
And yes he shut the door and left the dog in the car which he didn't need to do am I right? Or he could have left the windows down. He could have checked on him every once in a while. Don't you find it odd that they have not mentioned just how long the dog was in the car really. Sounds to me like it was a while and they don't want the public to know about it. I am pretty sure it wasn't just a quick run into the donut shop.
"They go to prison if the child dies 99% of the time." Where did you get this from? There are many documented cases in which people are not criminally charged for the deaths of their children. I'm assuming this is a made up statistic. Show me your statistic then of more than 1% of people who get no charges... Wouldn't you agree more people get charged for this than not. And yet they arn't doing anything to this OFFICER because he is an OFFICER. And like many others have stated if this was a regular citizen he would have been arrested already.
For most purposes, we know nothing. You're filling in so many blanks that your entire argument is based upon a fiction construed to favor your own feelings about the situation. You fail to to use any kind of objective viewpoint of what you actually you know, and what the most reasonable scenario is. The most logical reason the article doesn't mention how long the dog was in the car is because they don't know. The reason the police department won't (nor should they) release facts early on in an investigation is that they have a significant chance of being false\inaccurate. - We don't know that the windows were not rolled down. Easy to assume, but nonetheless you can't. - We don't know how long the dog was in the car without supervision. - We don't know what the officer was doing while the dog was in the car. - We don't know what the dog died from. Again very easy to assume but with how little we know, it's quite possible that hyperthermia\dehydration were not the actual reasons the dog died. - There is certainly no evidence that the officer in question is receiving preferential treatment just because he is a cop. Conclusion: You know nothing but you draw conclusions like you know everything. Opinions based on nothing but personal fictions are useless and most definitely shouldn't be used to attack a person's character.
[22:00:32] NordicJedi: the only way i can read this chatroom is if i imagine you're all dead
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 14:34:49
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dbe425
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 14:39:23
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Wow not a single hot dog joke. You guys surprise me sometimes.
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Rudster816
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 14:47:11
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ipwnnoobsirl
The short, legal version is... Mens rea must be accompanied by actus reus for someone to be criminally liable ("guilty mind" + "guilty act" = criminal liability). In this case, you would be hard pressed to find either. There will probably be no criminal charges.
You're taking mens rea out of it's original context\meaning. Mens rea has to do with criminal insanity, not negligence. A person who kills someone but at the time legitimately thought that there was absolutely nothing wrong or illegal about it, they could attempt an insanity defense. E.g. A person who kills someone because they (in some delusion) think that the victim was a zombie who was trying to kill them is not criminally liable because they did not have the capacity to see that what they were doing was wrong. A person who backs out of a parking spot and hits someone on accident isn't necessarily guilty. If they failed to check their mirrors or look behind them then they are guilty (assault, etc) because their actions were negligent. However if they did check their mirrors\look but failed to see the person (e.g. because it was a small child) then they're not. In both cases there was never any intent to do anything illegal, but you can still be held liable for an 'accident' if you're negligent.
[22:00:32] NordicJedi: the only way i can read this chatroom is if i imagine you're all dead
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ipwnnoobsirl
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 15:14:44
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Rudster816
ipwnnoobsirl
The short, legal version is... Mens rea must be accompanied by actus reus for someone to be criminally liable ("guilty mind" + "guilty act" = criminal liability). In this case, you would be hard pressed to find either. There will probably be no criminal charges.
You're taking mens rea out of it's original context\meaning. Mens rea has to do with criminal insanity, not negligence. A person who kills someone but at the time legitimately thought that there was absolutely nothing wrong or illegal about it, they could attempt an insanity defense.
E.g.
A person who kills someone because they (in some delusion) think that the victim was a zombie who was trying to kill them is not criminally liable because they did not have the capacity to see that what they were doing was wrong.
A person who backs out of a parking spot and hits someone on accident isn't necessarily guilty. If they failed to check their mirrors or look behind them then they are guilty (assault, etc) because their actions were negligent. However if they did check their mirrors\look but failed to see the person (e.g. because it was a small child) then they're not. In both cases there was never any intent to do anything illegal, but you can still be held liable for an 'accident' if you're negligent.
Mens rea has everything to do with criminal negligence. In fact, criminal negligence is a specific classification of mens rea. So no, I am not taking it out of context.  Criminal Negligence would be their best bet of trying to stick any charges on the officer, but they would have to show that a reasonable person under similar cirumstances would have taken precautions and prevented the act from occurring. That would be easy for people on a forum to say in hindsight, but difficult to prove in court. An insanity defense tries to excuse mens rea by saying that he could not have a "guilty mind" because his mind was defective, and he believed what he did was correct (killing the zombie). The insanity defense could not negate actus reus, due to the fact that the action occurred (killing the zombie). However, this defense rarely works because regardless of whether he believed that the person was a zombie trying to kill him, the killer may still be aware of the character of the action (murder), and be charged criminally. I think your example of the child in the parking lot is similar to my previous example of the child running between two parked cars and in front of a lawfully moving vehicle (Several posts up). I do not disagree with you at all there.
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Afterburner
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 16:31:43
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No excuse, unacceptable behavior from a community servant. I agree with an earlier poster, this officer killed another officer and should be held accountable to it like anyone else...
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donald trump
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 17:09:35
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I don't see how they can consider it a full on officer, and I even want to be a cop. A dog is not a human, and should not be treated that way in a court. No doubt he dun' goofed on a major level, but I can't see this being on purpose.
inb4madpeoplerageatme
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Afterburner
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 17:13:25
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donald trump
I don't see how they can consider it a full on officer, and I even want to be a cop. A dog is not a human, and should not be treated that way in a court. No doubt he dun' goofed on a major level, but I can't see this being on purpose.
inb4madpeoplerageatme
It is a two way street. If a pedestrian killed a Police Dog, they consider the Police Dog to be like an Officer in the eyes of many States. And a Pedestrian would be charged as such. All a few of us are suggesting, is that the Officer be held to that same standard. This is not a debate on if a Police Dog is an Officer or not. Hope that makes sense...
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donald trump
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/05 17:14:48
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Afterburner
donald trump
I don't see how they can consider it a full on officer, and I even want to be a cop. A dog is not a human, and should not be treated that way in a court. No doubt he dun' goofed on a major level, but I can't see this being on purpose.
inb4madpeoplerageatme
It is a two way street. If a pedestrian killed a Police Dog, they consider the Police Dog to be like an Officer in the eyes of many States. And a Pedestrian would be charged as such. All a few of us are suggesting, is that the Officer be held to that same standard.
This is not a debate on if a Police Dog is an Officer or not. Hope that makes sense...
Okay then. At most the guy should be charged with animal cruelty, and anything else that can be considered killing an ANIMAL on accident. Also why you no reply to mah pm :(
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boomerman18
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/09 02:45:19
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Kanti
If anyone else kills a police dog he gets tried for killing an officer. This guy deserves nothing less. There is no excuse for leaving a living being trapped inside a roasting hot vehicle.
Yep i totally agree...but because hes a man OF LAW, they will slap him on the wrist and thats it. Working for the man or strutting around with a badge doenst make you above the law it just gives you the right to keep it in order with basic reasoning.
 ^^^^ Charlie sheen if he was a robot
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Halfdead14
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/09 06:57:55
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Chrome-M-Dragon
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/09 09:38:23
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So look. This guy was partners with this dog for 7 years. How is it that you let 7 years of habit just fly out the window one day. Intentional killing or not, his actions resulted in the dogs death directly. If your working with an animal or anyone (even kids) for 7 years you begin to form habits. Leave the car? AC is running check (or when it comes to kids either don't bring them in the car with you, or get the kid out of the car you lazy moron). I don't care about the sidetracked with phone calls bull, he had a responsibility to check on the dog, period. To see if the car stalled, or if the dog was still ok. Also let someone steal your police car with a vicious dog in it, I think that would be funny stuff. So intentional or not, he directly caused the death of his dog and should (at max) be removed from his job, and never allowed to own another animal again. Murder is too far, unless like was said before, he physically directly and intentionally killed the dog. I do not think that after all those years he slammed the door and said roast you bastard. THOUGH if he did, hang him.
People are, well, only Human. We know that. The rule of law is borne out in identifying, condemning, and punishing those who violate the standards on which we all agree. This is exactly what we do in america. -James Inhofe Use any of the codes below for a free hug and a high five! Much love to all you wonderful nerds! Associate: 5L1LJB5JQ94H892 Affiliate Code: QRXQKO8ZJS
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dreeder
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/10 08:55:22
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I asked two different policemen about this at the downtown farmers' market last saturday morning (des moines). Let's just say if looks could kill, I'd have been left in a hot car.
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Kanti
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/10 09:06:20
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Muh 'filiate code: 387JKEF57G
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Chrome-M-Dragon
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/09/10 17:09:03
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ipwnnoobsirl
That is not how logic (or our legal system) works. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion (your statistical claim), and it is dishonest to make a claim and then ask others to prove your made up statistic. If your claim really WAS "more people get charged for this than not," then I would believe that is more realistic. You would still need proof, but it's more believable.
I think it is very clear that you do not like the police... Which is fine. Just try to be honest and understand that the things you are saying are probably out of anger and may not necessarily be true.
EDIT: Typo.
To the remaining things. "That is not how logic (or our legal system) works." Which is why our legal system is highly illogical. Laws with loopholes get murderers off scott free, or (insert illegal act here) go with with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Our legal system is such a joke, and I do have experience with it, I've seen it first hand. I know enough to have a very educated opinion (still only an opinion, but it's better than most peoples random ramblings). Number 2 things is that I don't think it has anything to do with hating police. I hate ignorant people trying to find an excuse, I hate people who torture/kill animals (whether purposefully, or buy absent minded ignorance). I don't hate him because he's a cop. I hate that he was stupid enough to allow this to happen by being careless and absent minded. Would love to see him forget to load his gun in a gun fight :)
People are, well, only Human. We know that. The rule of law is borne out in identifying, condemning, and punishing those who violate the standards on which we all agree. This is exactly what we do in america. -James Inhofe Use any of the codes below for a free hug and a high five! Much love to all you wonderful nerds! Associate: 5L1LJB5JQ94H892 Affiliate Code: QRXQKO8ZJS
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dreeder
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/10/09 16:47:26
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*Update* The fuzz brought the hammer down so hard this time... "A Des Moines police spokesman says Officer Brian Mathis has been suspended for three days without pay and also won’t be considered for another K-9." Dude got a three day weekend as punishment. Oh, and now we (Des Moines taxpayers) get to pay for new thermometers in the cars, $1,900 ones. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49350058/ns/local_news-des_moines_ia/
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kougar
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Re:Police Dog Dies When Left in Hot Patrol Car
2012/10/10 11:06:24
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This unfortunately is not new. We had a local case JUST 3 months ago where a dedicated police officer to the K9 unit "forgot" about two dogs in a vehicle and both died from heat exposure. http://www.woai.com/news/...OSeiUSuCrWydudt8Q.cspx What was even worse about it is the police department had heat sensors especially made for K9 unit vehicles laying around a storeroom unused for a few years. These sensors will trigger the car to start and turn on the AC system while sending out an alert when a K9 is present in the vehicle. Only after this incident is the Bexar police department going to use them.
post edited by kougar - 2012/10/10 11:09:05
 Have water, will cool.
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