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Hot!Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues

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NobleHonor7
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2022/07/25 07:25:32 (permalink)
I have as of yesterday had a 3090 FTW3 Gaming Ultra pop and die on me while opening the settings menu of Halo Reach MCC. The fans sped up to 100% usage, dropped way down, then sped up again. The graphics card made a loud pop sound, then the computer restarted and the GPU was fully dead. I’m currently RMA’ing the card, but am nervous these issues haven’t been fixed since the original revision, (Card was purchased via microcenter during one of the first restocks.) and am hoping that the issues have been resolved, otherwise I would prefer to take my business elsewhere if I can expect to have to look up if a game is safe to play, or if it will blow up my GPU.

Specs:
12700k
Rtx 3090 gaming ultra ftw3
Asus tuf gaming plus wifi d4 z690
32gb ddr4 3200mhz cl16 crucial ballistix
Fractal torrent case
2tb inland pcie gen 4 m.2
1tb Samsung 980 pcie gen 3 m.2
1000w Evga g5 supernova psu.
Noctua nh-d15 chromax black cpu cooler
Windows 10
All drivers and windows up to date
#1

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    arestavo
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 07:59:31 (permalink)
    Hmm, well - that was addressed quite some time ago (faulty component (capacitor? I forget now)). A search should have brought that up for Halo.
     
    You had an original run with the problem, it was addressed and fixed. You might get an RMA'd card that still has the issue (but I doubt it, as EVGA should have been able to identify the batches and fix them) - if it happens again just ask nicely for EVGA to cover the shipping costs. They've done so for me and others with repeat problems in the past.
    #2
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 08:16:43 (permalink)
    Make sure that you specifically request a Rev 1.0 version from EVGA. Don't let EVGA send you a Rev 0.1 that someone sent in for Step-up or returned.
    EVGA has been cheap and continues to send out the Rev 0.1 problematic cards that someone else didn't want.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/07/25 08:18:27
    #3
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 08:22:21 (permalink)
    I saw that the original issue with a weak solder joint on a mosfet was taken care of, but I’ve also seen issues with 3080ti having this issue with halo mcc, and I’ve seen 3090s drawing 135% power limit, or the cards pulling 75 - 85% GPU power while the limit is set to 50%. It’s just a terrifying thought. I had seen where other brands gpus stayed much closer to the power limit.

    I hope the issues have been fixed because I would prefer to stick with EVGA. I have a 2080, 3080 ti and 3090 from EVGA. I just don’t want to deal with continuous RMA issues, and the constant fear/possibility of a failure dealing permanent damage to other components.
    #4
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 08:32:20 (permalink)
    Thank you for that info. That’s a pretty messed up thing for them to do. Hopefully I don’t run into that issue, and will definitely be requesting a new rev with that issue fixed!
    #5
    rjohnson11
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 10:02:18 (permalink)
    Go ahead and make an RMA and start this process. 

    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X,  Corsair Mp600 Pro M.2, 128GB DDR4  Crosshair VIII Hero, RTX 3090ti FTW Ultra Associate Code: H5U80QBH6BH0AXF. I am NOT an employee of EVGA

    #6
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 10:30:49 (permalink)
    I have a support ticket in. It’s under a different account. Provided proof of purchase on it and waiting for an RMA approval.

    rjohnson11, could you go into any of the information regarding the asymmetrical power design of this card? Buildzoid stated that it is the reason the cards seem to be blowing up, and that the only model you all make of the 3090 with symmetrical power design is the kingpin variant. Am k going to have a similar issue again even with the new Rev due to this issue?

    If it has been fixed, that would be wonderful, but I am definitely terrified of this situation occurring again.
    #7
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 12:10:14 (permalink)
    I don't think it has ever been fixed. The Rev 1.0 just balances a little better and is less likely to die, in my opinion.

    I never for a second believed the "bad soldering" excuse and supposed bad mystery batch which EVGA never would provide any more specifics about. If it were actually a bad batch, why is EVGA not telling us the batch number, why are customers with affected batch numbers not notified, and why is EVGA still sending out Rev 0.1 cards via RMA which fail the same way? If a bad batch of soldering was the cause, EVGA should have been able to mitigate it long ago.

    Be careful about the "different account" thing. That is against the terms of service of this website. You should work with EVGA to get your accounts consolidated to only one.

    Edit:
    BTW, do you have a link to that Buildzoid video about power balancing exacerbating the issue? I started to be convinced that was the case, but haven't heard anyone else say it. I am convinced that NVIDIA's choice to use average power is at the heart of it, NVIDIA's choice to have no instantaneous power limit of any kind is at the heart of it, transient loads kill the cards, cards with higher power limits with reference VRM are more likely to die, cards with poor power balancing are more likely to die since more of a transient spike will be provided by one bus instead of being better distributed among the 4 buses, and Rev 0.1 cards have poorer power balancing due to their inferior analog voltage controller chip.

    Also, just for a matter of ranting... EVGA created a special 3090 OC exchange program where people could send in their crappy Rev 0.1 card which balanced badly and exchange it for a Rev 1.0 model which balanced better (and therefore power limited less often/ performed better). Where do you think the Rev 0.1 cards that people sent in are going? To poor people like you with a RMA. So, if you get a Rev 0.1 from RMA, it is almost certainly one that EVGA previously accepted as unacceptable from a previous customer. What gives EVGA?!? EVGA doesn't want to take the loss, so they hope customers won't know better and will gamble with another one. That's why you have to specifically tell EVGA that you don't want a Rev 0.1 reject.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/07/25 14:43:00
    #8
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 14:14:05 (permalink)
    You will have to look up these videos on youtube.
     
    In this video, he goes into the asymmetric power stages/power phases in general, but especially in regards to the Gigabyte Vision 3090:
     
    Probing a Gigabyte RTX 3090 Vision that died when trying to run New World
     
    In this video, he explains how the 3090 power delivery is much better. It also explains how the 3090 has very sub par VRMs all around. It is definitely unfortunate, but it seems to be, according to what he has seen, why all of these 3090s are dying randomly. It seems the Asus Strix, EVGA Kingpin, Gigabyte Extreme, GALAX HOF, and Nvidia FE are the exceptions:
     
    RTX 3090 TIs should be much more reliable than RTX 3090s
     
    Maybe this information is incorrect, but it seems pretty plausible.
     
    All of these issues make me want to honestly just have them do an RMA refund instead, because I don't want to watch my 3090 explode again. It also makes me worry about my 3080 ti. I'm seriously hoping the problems aren't persisting with EVGA.
    post edited by NobleHonor7 - 2022/07/25 14:44:09
    #9
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 14:50:09 (permalink)
    The cards blow up because their transient response requirements are too much for some power supplies. Old rev 0.1 cards use a pwm on the vrm that is too slow to respond to the severe overcurrent/undervoltage condition in time to save the card. Newer rev 1.0 use a faster pwm that usually triggers the protections in time.
    #10
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 15:43:26 (permalink)
    So your telling me Halo MCC won’t blow up a Rev 1.0 card?
    #11
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 16:13:34 (permalink)
    Considering the PSU you used, it is closer to "it will probably take more time until it does blow up".
    #12
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 16:21:56 (permalink)
    So all in all, again, it’s just an exceptionally poor design and EVGA are pretty much just ****ing their customers over. A product that will eventually blow up from issues like this isn’t something that should be on the market, and in all honesty, I would prefer a refund over a Rev 1.0, seeing as it’s a matter of time before it blows. Pretty ****ty of them to handle all of this the way they have, and super shady too.
    #13
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 16:35:39 (permalink)
    It is actually a matter between Nvidia and the PSU makers being shady on the way they interpret the ATX spec.

    Evga just went and increased the power limit of their cards on top, so the issue becomes even more notable.
    #14
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 16:48:08 (permalink)
    According to buildzoid, EVGA used sub par parts for their VRM design, and designed an asymmetric power stage/power phase which causes these issues. Only their kingpin model has good power delivery. Seems to me like in general its Nvidia approving shady PCB design, and EVGA cutting corners and making ****ty parts.
    #15
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 17:14:06 (permalink)
    Nah, buildzoid is just rambling cause he does not have a working ftw3 card in hand to see what is going on and they fry. He specifically states that he makes assumptions about this at some point.

    In reality, the affected cards just draw power so massively that some PSUs cannot give it in time. Just that.
    #16
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 17:17:09 (permalink)
    Michapolys
    In reality, the affected cards just draw power so massively that some PSUs cannot give it in time. Just that.

    Bogus. Hook one up to the best DC battery source you can, and they will still have transient overshoots.
    The transient overshoots are a product of the design and are guaranteed to happen regardless of which power supply you use.

    I still fail to understand how you think a power supply that isn't able to keep up with demand can overpower a card. It is illogical. If your theory were true, the card would shut off due to undervoltage protection and would be perfectly fine.

    It's overcurrent protection that the card is lacking, and that is what is killing the card when a transient spike is too high and the card has no built-in protection against such a condition.

    At some point we have to stop blaming power supplies. It is a waste of everyone's time.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/07/25 17:20:09
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    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 17:28:44 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    Bogus. Hook one up to the best DC battery source you can, and they will still have transient overshoots.
    The transient overshoots are a product of the design and are guaranteed to happen regardless of which power supply you use.

    I still fail to understand how you think a power supply that isn't able to keep up with demand can overpower a card. It is illogical. If your theory were true, the card would shut off due to undervoltage protection and would be perfectly fine.

    It's overcurrent protection that the card is lacking, and that is what is killing the card when a transient spike is too high and the card has no built-in protection against such a condition.

    At some point we have to stop blaming power supplies. It is a waste of everyone's time.


    I am very specific about this situation, so do not put words in my mouth.

    I put the blame where it is.
    The power supplies were supposedly guaranteed to handle the aforementioned transient spikes. Some do not. It is that simple.
    #18
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 17:47:06 (permalink)
    Michapolys
    ty_ger07
    Bogus. Hook one up to the best DC battery source you can, and they will still have transient overshoots.
    The transient overshoots are a product of the design and are guaranteed to happen regardless of which power supply you use.

    I still fail to understand how you think a power supply that isn't able to keep up with demand can overpower a card. It is illogical. If your theory were true, the card would shut off due to undervoltage protection and would be perfectly fine.

    It's overcurrent protection that the card is lacking, and that is what is killing the card when a transient spike is too high and the card has no built-in protection against such a condition.

    At some point we have to stop blaming power supplies. It is a waste of everyone's time.


    I am very specific about this situation, so do not put words in my mouth.

    I put the blame where it is.
    The power supplies were supposedly guaranteed to handle the aforementioned transient spikes. Some do not. It is that simple.

    I am not placing words in your mouth. We have had this discussion 3 times. I know your words and opinions.

    The transient spikes exist as a matter of GPU design, regardless of power supply choice. It is that simple.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/07/25 17:49:42
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    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 18:31:03 (permalink)
    I’ve seen cards that have died regardless of psu choice. I seriously doubt PSU choice matters at all. Hence the redesign of the highest end variants from board partners power deliver systems. Suprim X, Strix, Kingpin, Extreme and Hall of Fame don’t have these issues. All the other models do.
    #20
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/25 18:46:11 (permalink)
    Well, it unfortunately does. At least AMD and Nvidia held back with the transient requirements on their very latest GPUs.
    The reference RX 6950 XT for example is less agressive than the reference RX 6900 XT.
    #21
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 07:05:17 (permalink)
    Will EVGA do refunds instead of sending another card that will blow up out? I would much prefer money back, and I’ll just buy a 3090 TI since it has much better power management.
    #22
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 07:59:47 (permalink)
    NobleHonor7
    Will EVGA do refunds instead of sending another card that will blow up out? I would much prefer money back, and I’ll just buy a 3090 TI since it has much better power management.

    Yes, at least they have in the past. It's a special thing though, not covered in their policies or terms. You have to request it and hope that they agree.
    #23
    arestavo
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 08:00:24 (permalink)
    NobleHonor7
    Will EVGA do refunds instead of sending another card that will blow up out? I would much prefer money back, and I’ll just buy a 3090 TI since it has much better power management.

    "EVGA offers a 14-day return for refund policy from the date of purchase on items purchased directly by you from EVGA.com. EVGA does not offer any refunds on shipping once the order has shipped to the customer and the customer is responsible for any transit, customs, or brokerage fees due to a non-deliverable or rejected package." Per https://www.evga.com/legal/store/
     
    #24
    NobleHonor7
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 08:44:31 (permalink)
    Unfortunately that does not cover me in any way. Card was purchased via Microcenter quite a ways back.
    #25
    bavor
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 09:22:25 (permalink)
    NobleHonor7
    Will EVGA do refunds instead of sending another card that will blow up out? I would much prefer money back, and I’ll just buy a 3090 TI since it has much better power management.



    It took 3 RMAs for EVGA to give me a refund on my 3090 FTW3 Ultra
    #26
    arestavo
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 10:05:21 (permalink)
    NobleHonor7
    Unfortunately that does not cover me in any way. Card was purchased via Microcenter quite a ways back.

    Best to contact Microcenter then. 
    #27
    yaymz
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 10:53:01 (permalink)
    ty_ger07
    Michapolys
    In reality, the affected cards just draw power so massively that some PSUs cannot give it in time. Just that.

    Bogus. Hook one up to the best DC battery source you can, and they will still have transient overshoots.
    The transient overshoots are a product of the design and are guaranteed to happen regardless of which power supply you use.

    I still fail to understand how you think a power supply that isn't able to keep up with demand can overpower a card. It is illogical. If your theory were true, the card would shut off due to undervoltage protection and would be perfectly fine.

    It's overcurrent protection that the card is lacking, and that is what is killing the card when a transient spike is too high and the card has no built-in protection against such a condition.

    At some point we have to stop blaming power supplies. It is a waste of everyone's time.

    I tend to agree that it is less to do with the PSU and more to do with understated TDP requirements on the 3090's (in conjunction with sub optimal power delivery).  Too many people were limping in with bare minimum / maxed out PSUs to run 3090s which isn't a good idea. 
     
    The capacitors on a maxed out PSU aren't big enough to handle those load spikes coming from the GPU.  Not the PSU's fault if the power demand goes way over the wattage limit of the PSU, even for a split millisecond. 
    #28
    ty_ger07
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 12:08:59 (permalink)
    yaymz
    The capacitors on a maxed out PSU aren't big enough to handle those load spikes coming from the GPU.  Not the PSU's fault if the power demand goes way over the wattage limit of the PSU, even for a split millisecond. 

    Yeah, sure. But then the PSUs will just trip like some of those Seasonic and EVGA PSUs were doing. Or the GPU will black screen due to undervoltage protection kicking in. But the cards which are burning up, they were successfully able to draw enough power to kill themselves; so it is illogical to blame the PSU for the GPU's death or say that the under-sized PSU somehow could possible cause that condition to happen.

    The GPUs which fried their VRM or burnt their fuses were able to successfully draw too much power. That is solely the fault of the GPU.
    post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/07/26 12:11:21
    #29
    Michapolys
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    Re: Dead 3090 / Power Balance Issues 2022/07/26 12:55:16 (permalink)
    yaymz
    The capacitors on a maxed out PSU aren't big enough to handle those load spikes coming from the GPU.  Not the PSU's fault if the power demand goes way over the wattage limit of the PSU, even for a split millisecond. 


    That is the problem. The power demand is within the recommended limit as defined by the ATX spec. It is just that most PSUs currently out there rely on a loophole of the spec to reduce their transient load capabilities.
    #30
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