I've found it a lot less stressful the last few years when I fold for the "event" which raises awareness, but ignore the "race" which has been broken for awhile now.  I wouldn't mind if the "race" was more enjoyable, but by no means is it the main reason I join the "event".

@Macaholic:
Once you have a RACE, instead of a promotional event, (which you can't possibly handicap), you can invite other teams to race.
 
To make it worthwhile, you have to have rules that are easy to understand, and be enforced. The fewer rules, the better.
 
I've invited two teams to consider racing next year.
==========================
 
Races are fun, and will always attract people - they always have. Don't make the race, into a promo event of some kind. The promotional aspect of the race, rides piggy back with the racers, as they try to recruit their friends, neighbors, associates, etc., to help them.
 
Sure, many times you wind up with a folder just moving from one team to another - with no net gain for FAH. But other times you WILL bring a few people into the folding hobby. But the RACE part carries the promo part - and the race is what needs to be run.
 
The race - not the promo event - WILL attract people, and they will fold more and upgrade to better hardware sooner, because they want to race better. And it's fun!
 
Right now, the CC format isn't perfect, and neither is the handicapping. It's the best I could do with only one year of CC race date, (from 2011).
 
I don't like the recruiting aspect of the CC where we get non-racing folders from other teams, but:
 
1) It's always happened - since the very first CC, it was done "sub rosa".
 
2) I don't know a way to stop it if someone really wants to do it. Having a rule against it just penalizes the honest teams, and benefits the not-so-honorable teams.
 
3) Folders from non-racing teams WANT to race sometimes. They  come over unasked, every once in awhile. I'm not going to tell them "No, you can't race".
 
Maybe - and this is just an idea atm, after we get a more focused handicap system, if a folder wants to join in the race, his team's handicap (the multiplier), is adjusted on the fly. Now he's able to race, but the balance given by the handicap, is maintained.
 
Here's another "off the cuff" idea. The race is divided up into quarters. After every 25% of the race time has passed, a new handicap is calculated, based on the results of the race so far.
 
That would help put teams that are floundering, back into the competition. It would also make it harder for any team to run away with the win, all alone. It would have a strong bunching effect on the teams, and have to be carefully set up.
 
Just a few idea's - I haven't studied them in detail. I do know that you have to keep the race, a race, and not a recruiting or promo event. Nobody cares, or will have fun at, a recruiting or promo event.
 
That means the race must be centered around points folded, and be handicapped in a way that most people at least, see as honest and fair, for everyone.
 
This year has been the best I've been in for competition. We had three teams closely vying for 1st place - a big, a medium, and a small team - I've never seen that before in the CC. In the lower tier, we had close races with OCN vs. HWC, OCAU vs. TSC!. The only two who got separated was CustomPC & Bit-tech, and TPU!
 
More teams are competing for more positions still, than I've ever seen before in the CC.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Post #10

Adak1

jinihammerer
The only way a handicap system would be remotely accurate is by using current data during the race and that would be ugly too.

That's called "crystal balling" an event - where you have the eyes of God and prophetically can predict the winner and loser, etc. That's bad juju all around - stinky math and stinky clarity of purpose. I don't do that.

 
Post #65

Adak1
Maybe - and this is just an idea atm, after we get a more focused handicap system, if a folder wants to join in the race, his team's handicap (the multiplier), is adjusted on the fly. Now he's able to race, but the balance given by the handicap, is maintained.

Here's another "off the cuff" idea. The race is divided up into quarters. After every 25% of the race time has passed, a new handicap is calculated, based on the results of the race so far.

I don't mean to call you out Adak, but don't these posts seem to contradict each other?  Does this mean you're warming up to the idea of a "dynamic" handicap to balance out the intangibles (how many "recruits" come from other teams, new big fish in small pond effect, etc)
 
I think the dynamic handicap idea seems to have merit and would help keep the race interesting.

Adak1


Races are fun, and will always attract people - they always have. Don't make the race, into a promo event of some kind. The promotional aspect of the race, rides piggy back with the racers, as they try to recruit their friends, neighbors, associates, etc., to help them.

Sure, many times you wind up with a folder just moving from one team to another - with no net gain for FAH. But other times you WILL bring a few people into the folding hobby. But the RACE part carries the promo part - and the race is what needs to be run.

The race - not the promo event - WILL attract people, and they will fold more and upgrade to better hardware sooner, because they want to race better. And it's fun!

Right now, the CC format isn't perfect, and neither is the handicapping. It's the best I could do with only one year of CC race date, (from 2011).

I don't like the recruiting aspect of the CC where we get non-racing folders from other teams, but:

 
*Note, only shortened post for space*
 
Now that is the kind of post we expected to see from you and your best post to date. No threats, no bashing, honest feedback. Now that gets me "Engaged" in thinking 2014 has a chance instead of how I felt yesterday which was I am done and not spending anymore time on this as it stood.
 
Thank you!

Afterburner

*Note, only shortened post for space*

Now that is the kind of post we expected to see from you and your best post to date. No threats, no bashing, honest feedback. Now that gets me "Engaged" in thinking 2014 has a chance instead of how I felt yesterday which was I am done and not spending anymore time on this as it stood.

Thank you!

Agreed. Having taken part in many a CC since its inception, I get how they work. But the landscape and format has changed considerably. From two teams when it began, up to nine teams now. That means that changes need to made in format and attitude. Right now I would recommend that EVGA refrain from further competition as there is an obvious targeted bias that is unlikely to be overcome regardless of what type of handicap is used. A race is not a race if the outcome can already be predicted. The [H]orde and MaxPC are smart enough to realize it is an exercise in futility as it currently stands.

Macaholic

Three teams should be invited if you are keeping the current handicap system;

http://folding.extremeove...summary.php?s=&t=40051
http://folding.extremeove...summary.php?s=&t=74960
http://folding.extremeove...summary.php?s=&t=74960

I only see two links (one is a duplicate)

My suggestion was to drop CC names entirely - no using them (those subtracted off your team - to prevent other teams from using a common name and a common passkey) 
 
if another team joins up as a member - ie user the new team number and a user name other than the Chimp name ... 
Im ok with that..it's easier to track and see who is folding (since most will probably use their previous key and name and just change team numbers)

the problem with signup is the same issue - getting people signed up and counting...much like PM'ing and getting the message out
 
the person is folding...but points won't count until the sign up?
they may be away...they may be sick... they just might not log in for a week
 
big teams = harder issue to get everyone up and running
 
secondly a stats issue...
now you only allow each one signed up ...by EOC...that requires huge stats revisions on a hourly basis or at min every day adding members from each team
further EVGA has 12,000 folding members - up to1200 active - do you want to input 100's or thousands of eoc nmbers each day(during the contest) into a stats database for one team nevermind 9 others


 
the best course was ..EVERYONES points count 
it a team thing ...lets keep it that way
Im not going to say since Punchy or someone else was sick he cant join up or get the chimp badge/trophy at the end
we all deserve it and we all fold for it
 
we got each others back....lets fold as a team and work as one
 
 
if you talking sign up from day 1 after this chimp...well we could sign up everyone (on the team one by one)
and then just PM everyone when it's running
what would be the difference other than new signups?
 
you know you can see new members on the your EOC team list...so it's not hard to track new signups
 

Xavier Zepherious

My suggestion was to drop CC names entirely - no using them (those subtracted off your team - to prevent other teams from using a common name and a common passkey) 

if another team joins up as a member - ie user the new team number and a user name other than the Chimp name ... 
Im ok with that..it's easier to track and see who is folding (since most will probably use their previous key and name and just change team numbers)

the problem with signup is the same issue - getting people signed up and counting...much like PM'ing and getting the message out

the person is folding...but points won't count until the sign up?
they may be away...they may be sick... they just might not log in for a week

big teams = harder issue to get everyone up and running

the best course was ..EVERYONES points count 
it a team thing ...lets keep it that way
Im not going to say since Punchy or someone else was sick he cant join up or get the chimp badge/trophy at the end
we all deserve it and we all fold for it

we got each others back....lets fold as a team and work as one

My post was not in response to yours BTW.. I was typing mine while you posted yours. And I 100% agree with you. I am just mentioning how that idea they have been doing for a few years is commendable at the least.
 
That said, it is also why the Formula is a joke for CC. Unless we are going to account for this commendatory, they formula is a waste of time and effort.
 
Speaking out-loud... By saying "It is not our fault other teams do not recruit successfully" is one way of saying... "We are going to fix the race. We will make the formula to measure everyone under normal situations, get our assistance from other teams, and win yet again." 
 
That is as bad as asking the teams to go head to head against EVGA. It is just not right. Why is that so hard for those not producing under EVGA's flag to see or understand? 
 
A race means all have a chance to win. I am only saying that because of the energy around "Winning the Race". As far as the event goes. It is muuuuuuch better than years past.
 
If anything... I think EVGA should not be measured in the CC. We should just participate in the capacity of awareness. Run our own "Internal" race along side for those who like to race and let the other teams enjoy a race. It seems to me that we are to big and are part of the problem finding a solution to the formula. Just imagine how the race would look without the formula, the "Stacking of one team" and EVGA removed...
 

 
 

Or we could just all band together to help the one team least likely to succeed and fold under their name.  Nothing more satisfying than skewing statistics, formulas and cheaters!
 
Just saying... :)

Afterburner

Viper97

Or we could just all band together to help the one team least likely to succeed and fold under their name.  Nothing more satisfying than skewing statistics, formulas and cheaters!

Just saying... :)

EVIL!






I like it =]

And in all seriousness. If the decision from the team at some point was to not participate in the CC.. I would be happy to help "Charter" a team that would do just that... Picking the team would be fun...

Now, now. Where did that come from? Crazy idea.

Macaholic

Afterburner

Viper97

Or we could just all band together to help the one team least likely to succeed and fold under their name.  Nothing more satisfying than skewing statistics, formulas and cheaters!

Just saying... :)

EVIL!






I like it =]

And in all seriousness. If the decision from the team at some point was to not participate in the CC.. I would be happy to help "Charter" a team that would do just that... Picking the team would be fun...

Now, now. Where did that come from? Crazy idea.

 
The difference here... That is just misinformation. As we can see in the proof of our production. Not to mention a double standard. It is "OK" to get help from other teams, but not "OK" for EVGA members to help other teams. Interesting. 
 
That said, it is just one voice, and not a reflection of their team. Just like any other...
 
My comment above is if and when the entire team of EVGA decides to no longer participate in the CC I would be happy to help build a team to go spread good will and take out the ringer... 
 
Two very different lines of thought. 

I actually like the idea of participating in but not being a racer in it. Fact is we can never win.
Why?
Because evga or big [h] are the two elephants in the room. We are the standard that all the handicaps are gaged to. no matter how we'll we do or grow we will always behind the eight ball. We could come in dead last. And still not have a handicap. We are the zero point.

Viper97

Or we could just all band together to help the one team least likely to succeed and fold under their name.  Nothing more satisfying than skewing statistics, formulas and cheaters!

Just saying... :)

 
You very bad person, I do like that idea - a lot!!

Regardless of how bad the Chimp Challenge has or has not become, I would be against any effort to intentionally derail it. 

Just my opinion that its not worth the time or effort if your intentions are destruction.  Is the contest horribly broken?  Yes.  Is it beyond repair?  At the moment I am inclined to say yes and no.  Yes, I believe most people involved in organizing it set out to ensure their team has the best chance to win.  No, at the moment I don't believe the logistics are unmanageable (even with "visitors") if the politics don't get in the way.  Actually, I would welcome the challenge of designing something much fairer, but how dysfunctional and jaded the organizational structure is, I feel it would be a waste of time.