bill1024

If you are going to have a handy cap, and there has to be one I agree.
Then there has to be a penalty for going over.
Sandbagging is what I see going on.

If this is a race, and it have been called a race a thousand times, you can not sandbag.

I have way more important things to worry about than the CC, but I do hate sandbaggers.
Maybe someday I will tell yall how I really feel. 

 
Can we by-pass your feelings for now, and just have you tell me more about your idea? It's interesting. How would it work though - maybe a very simple example?
 
To be honest, I'm not the best guy in the world to tell your feelings to. When I help students on the programming board, I do it because it helps them. I don't really care much how they feel about me. I don't know them, they don't stay around long on the forum. Sometimes just a few hours, and then they're gone.
 
 
 

Lets rise above all this junk-mail from Adak and basically stop speaking to him about CC.  If he can't even admit to being a problem in this forum and apologize for his behavior here, how can we expect that he would see any of the other points we have made?  Let's just ignore him and move on because all he is doing is propagating negativity in the face of having no credibility.  The repeated phrase for that behavior by saying "this is the way I am" is not an excuse for being offensive in someone else's home.  People like that don't get invited back in real life and this is our virtual home.
 
Moving on, we are a very gifted, honest, team with loads of integrity.  I don't say that lightly either, but with all the respect that years of being here have taught me about this team.  I admit, I fell right into a bucket of crap when I should have stepped over it because this team is all about caring and winning through what we do every day.
 
Let's regroup, put this thing behind us and if we are interested build that better contest (or whatever a world event should be) with a new name.  If we don't have the interest, that's OK too because such a thing requires much from people that are volunteers.  Let CC go where ever it needs to in the future (to glory or to the bit-bucket), it is not the be-all/end-all of Folding and I'm gonna try harder to remember that too.  Guess what I'm saying is that I have reached a "turning point" (for the good) with all this and know that at least for me, there are greater things we can (and will) do as a team.
 
Let some fresh-air blow-in and lets return to putting our positive and constructive energy to something that will be useful. 

The handy cap the way you have it is not too far off really.
 
Think of it as a car race, you make your 3 runs. We know you average 12sec 1/4 mile runs.
Then you add 400 horse power to your car (more folders). Now you can run a 11 sec 1/4 mile (more points).
That's just not right. No race track in the world would let you do that.
 
So if team x does 1 million a month, then in the CC they do 1.5M they went 50% over.
Make it so every team can only go over their average 5% or maybe 10%. with no penalty.
Then if they go over 25% they lose 25% of their points as a penalty. 50% over they lose 50% of their points.
The numbers can be changed to make it work.
 
Or make everyone sign up for a team then lock the teams. Get every ones average for the last xxxxxx time frame.
Average it out for the team, set the handy cap number for each team.
Then use the penalty like I said before.
 
 
 

Adak1
That's why we DON'T  do that! 

The recruits ARE included into the handicap - just exactly like they were part of the team, all along. That's WHY we use RACE data, and not regular team ppd, or points/month.
That completely eliminates sandbagging in the CC - unless you want to throw a year or two of racing, away. 

 
Ohhh WoW is that a Doozy ......  .. .. Careful everyone you don't want to step in that. 
 
Someone bring a pooper scooper.

We have the March madness race, if you do not sign up in time you are out.
It worked out real well.
 
We are taking the CC from what it started with, two big teams with a race to xxxxxxx and turning it in to something else altogether.

Macaholic

Adak1

We've done well the past two years, because I've learned that being a less active captain within the team and forum, means the team will race poorly. It doesn't matter how much you work in the Captain's forum, you also have to do a lot of work in the public forum, or your team , still the Ants will continue to win - because they're getting stronger every year, and the Bats never do.

The idea is to reward the team that has grown in strength, since last year, AND has a good race with:
*good full participation by it's members
*lots of recruiting
*lots of excitement in the forum during the race, to attract still other racers
who just want to be in on a fun event. We get a few every year that way.

Does my algorithm make better sense now?

Yes, I am. You will not admit it, but you have NO facts to support your assertions, and yes, obviously, the handicap system WILL rebalance the teams, after every race. You know it. I know it. Everybody who studies it knows it.

You can either accept facts, or not.  I have listed several facts that support my argument. You have never refuted a single one of them. All you have are your smears and innuendos - and wow! maybe a conspiracy!

Any 8 year old can understand 95% of my handicap system, because it's SO clear and simple. A balance is equal and fair, and you can call it any name you want, but it won't change the facts.

Weaker teams than EVGA need to be given a higher multiplier. Stronger teams than EVGA need to be given lower multipliers.

It's so simple, I'm amazed that you find the temerity to argue against it.

The facts were presented but you ignored them. Your definition of "recruiting" must change to inviting as an active participating team. They have been identified as Tom's Hardware, PC Pitstop, and The Raptor Pit. They are weaker teams and will be given a higher multiplier to race on their own. You knew from last year's Banana Boat payback that they would be willing to participate but you conveniently simply "recruited" them. That stacked the deck. Thus, this should be a promotional event and not a race, if current ideas of recruiting stand. Mustering in team members is encouraged, cannibalizing smaller teams should not. Those smaller teams should be invited to race standing on their own merit. No conspiracy. Just the facts.

Edit - for the sake of complete disclosure and facts for you, here is Operation Banana, and here is a list of teams that should have been invited to fold on their own merit.

so this is what Axipher is referring to in the CC Capt forum?
 
no wonder he was complaining about ringers - tsk tsk OCF
and Paying them?
 
I wonder what would happen if we told {h] they fold for us one month we fold for them two
you'd get the whole team or a good swatch of it 

as I posted in the CC
the reason to have these contest is recruitment for New permanent members
  not to go fetch a portion from each team (that you wan to invite into the CC),stack the deck(with High PPD producing members too) - with temp folders so you can win...it be fine if they participated by opting a few into each team
And most wouldn't mind a few from each team (2 or 3) 
 
if they had interest we could have included them prior to The CC and let them have a trial run
 
the other reason is the promotion of FAH - to grow FAH and get new teams started  and new members everywhere
the race is icing on the cake
 
going to other teams and getting them to switch for 1 race does nothing to meet any goals other than help a team win a race
EVGA doesn't get much help - one can say it's has the opposite affect - most go to other teams to try and topple us
 
Ringers:
I noted having ringers with any multiplier system would skew results - specially with smaller teams High multiplier -
more skewed with big influx or high PPD users


I noted it still favor the small teams prior to the CC and this would be one of the issues
 
it's better than zodac yes (that was expontential) better than last year yes (that was a multiplier system too)
 
what we have to do is find a system that doesn't multiple the affects of ringers,
hence the two new ideas we posted - and I suggest all the teams look at them  


Seeing that axipher (OCN) and EVGA is not happy about the ringer situation...I don't see your formula surviving next year even if there is a CC or if EVGA is in it
 
Adak you have to really reconsider your formula - and let the Other teams have a say and decide this for themselves
that means early discussion - full participation from ALL teams including any invites or possible invites
that means everyone votes - and not abstentia - non votes by a majority
 
All the deadlines did was to gave us no choice but to compromise to have something (and not the best solution or have any discussion on a better solution)...and forcing people to vote or be non-counted by a date - would be distasteful if my vote was taking away
 
the roughshod means of the CC design process - this is really bad
where teams don't plug in until the last month and weeks
and once down to a few weeks - because of necessity - deadline are put in place and discussion are cut short  and so are votes
 
most don't have input - because the time is so short they by the time they notice the discussion or vote has gone by - this is whats killing it
if this isnt addressed I dare say we are in it 
 
ya most of the small team could care less about the formula - remember I had most of the team agreeing to a straight PPD race in 2011 - even MPC wanted that back this year
I think most would go for a dual system - to reflect the reality of the different teams sizes
 
last thing Adak: your posts here have been far more harmful to folding than anything else here - It came off as overbearing and obnoxious at times...  
Had you taking the criticism..and said ya my system is far from perfect -it needs some real help and input from other teams and had asked for troy or others to help out they would have - I dare say they would now
 
To my team: thx for remarks ..
You're a great team and it's my honor to be on YOUR TEAM - you guys are the reason I try to work this out and get it right.
Id suggest we get someone to either replace me or co- capt with me with some chops and ability to come up with a viable solution this time
 
or 
 
lets just do our own thing... have our own contest goals at that time
if the other teams smarten up then we will be back
we will still work on the CC but leave  the final say on go til feb -
if the teams have had discussion or a real constructive discussion by then and  should be all means have a final votes by then (nearly a full year of discussions)
 
if nothing has moved or the teams don't want to work on it why should we?

Adak1

That's why we DON'T  do that!

The recruits ARE included into the handicap - just exactly like they were part of the team, all along. That's WHY we use RACE data, and not regular team ppd, or points/month.

That completely eliminates sandbagging in the CC - unless you want to throw a year or two of racing, away. 

Inviting those "recruited" teams to fold on their own with their own handicap reduces sandbagging and promotes more of their own team spirit while getting more folding done. They have to rally their own troops to RACE instead of a join to beat Goliath promotional EVENT.

sbinh

Viper97

Meanwhile, I'm pirating and helping team VGT.  It may not put them in the lead but it will serve notice.

I for one don't believe the CC is worth the effort.  XZ tried but again I don't think there is an interest in our voice as a team.  So be it.  Those that don't listen often marginalize themselves.

We - VGT - really appreciate if you would please STOP folding for our team.
We don't need your "HELP" .. and please DO NOT use our team as as a "TOOL" for you to revenge  or to protest against other team.
What you are doing is just as bad as those "helpers" / "ringers".

Regards.

Why?  Since you also fold for OCN and [H]?  Last I heard I could join any team.  Have a nice day!

Viper97

Why?  Since you also fold for OCF?  Last I heard I could join any team.  Have a nice day!

Since when I fold for OCF? :) ...Prove it!
 
I do believe that you can join any team, but we DO NOT appreciate your "HELP" - specially after you have "conflict" with somebody  and/or dislike how this CC runs.
 
You are more than welcome to fold for VGT team after the CC is over.

bill1024

sbinh

Viper97

Why?  Since you also fold for OCF?  Last I heard I could join any team.  Have a nice day!

Since when I fold for OCF? :) ...Prove it!

I do believe that you can join any team, but we DO NOT appreciate your "HELP" - specially after you have "conflict" with somebody  and/or dislike how this CC runs.

You are more than welcome to fold for VGT team after the CC is over.

Look all the way at the bottom team. Is that proof?
http://fah-web.stanford.e...age&username=sbinh

You need put your glasses on. It was OCN not OCF.
I already mentioned in another thread here before. I USED TO help OCN during CC in 2011.
 
Here is the proof .. REAL proof. ..... :D
http://folding.extremeove...ry.php?s=&u=568140

bill1024

If you want to have a race you have to have rules.

Do you want a bracket race?
A handy-cap head-start race?
A heads up race?
Something like a marathon race where there are no teams?

Most races have a set number of racers, or you run into sandbagging.
You have to have a good average for the racers to have a fair handy cap.
To add racers to it later throws off the numbers.

Or are we just taking it to serious?
Just call it an event and not a race or contest.

I am just throwing out some ideas.

 

jinihammerer
Have you ever thought of maybe a marathon. a  Foldathon....  All the teams bind together to work and get sponsors involved, get media coverage not just on your own forums. 
 Try to the gaming scene involved. The Computer manufacturers and hardware manufacturers involved. get MS Apple, IBM. get CBS,  NBC, fox new, CNN everyone we possibly can that will listen. 

 
I think we discussed a such an idea twice now
although not a foldathon
 
more like our lets beat 1BILLion points
 
but do it as a concentrated effort by all teams - no race the goals is to fold our **** (whoops should have been butts) off to get that or none of us get the Green monkey - if we beat it we get it
 
again - the other teams dropped it...if it wasn't a race they weren't in it
 
I suggested a bracket race in the OLD Capts thread - however with out rules or a fair formula we are in the same boat
with OCF ringers any formula would have been useless under this
 
...the foldathon I like - and getting PR is what I think is needed
this is exactly what needs to be done - that means team capts going to sponsers and to the online gaming and media site to generate PR
 
With PR and press comes scrutiny and these shenanigans end - maybe the sponsers work out some fair racing system
 
 
 

Actually I typed OCF automatically.. it is OCN... but then again the proof.   Sorry Sbinh... that was my mistake. 
 

 
 

Alrighty now... the game is over... I actually went back to our team before this was all boiled over.  I had actually thought about it and it seems you can't tell who is friendly or the enemy outside our team.  So, I am just going to treat it as a done deal. 
 
I've blocked two members simply because I find their justifications misleading and dishonest.  All... I'm going to skip this thread now as it is getting to the point of where we are all saying the same thing either change it and make it work or get the heck out.
 
I'm getting out.  I really do understand why now this CC is disliked by many team members. 

bill1024

Adak1

bill1024

Since "sub rosa" recruiting of others can't be prevented, and will happen, why not make it a part of the race?

That's fine then, but there can't be a handy cap.
There is an old saying.
Race what you brung, and hope you brung enough.
To make a handy cap with team data, then bring in racers that are not a part of that data, is sandbagging.

If you win that way and feel good about it, well then good for you.
I wouldn't.

That's why we DON'T  do that!

The recruits ARE included into the handicap - just exactly like they were part of the team, all along. That's WHY we use RACE data, and not regular team ppd, or points/month.

That completely eliminates sandbagging in the CC - unless you want to throw a year or two of racing, away. 

The trouble I see with that it is not a definite number.
That data may of had 100 people, now this year you dug up 50 more.
It can't work like that, can it?.

That's right - there is no definite number. If I have a 100 member team, and I bring in 100 recruits, then it's the same as if I had a 200 member team. And I would have an advantage in the CC that year, because of the added folding strength.
 
But that lasts only ONE year. After that, if I have only 75 recruits, I'm automatically penalizing myself by 25 recruits. If I bring in no recruits next year, I'm penalizing myself 100 recruits.
 
So the handicap "follows" the team's performance in CC, every year.
 
Unlike at a track - or any physical location, I have no way to verify a list - you could put down anybody and there's no way of checking it's authenticity. Also, it's time consuming.

Adak1

That's right - there is no definite number. If I have a 100 member team, and I bring in 100 recruits, then it's the same as if I had a 200 member team. And I would have an advantage in the CC that year, because of the added folding strength.

But that lasts only ONE year. After that, if I have only 75 recruits, I'm automatically penalizing myself by 25 recruits. If I bring in no recruits next year, I'm penalizing myself 100 recruits.

So the handicap "follows" the team's performance in CC, every year.

Unlike at a track - or any physical location, I have no way to verify a list - you could put down anybody and there's no way of checking it's authenticity. Also, it's time consuming.

Those other 100 are not your team, they are your recruits.
TRP is a team they have their own team number, their number is not the same as your team number.
It you are handy caped for 100 extra and bring 150 you have an advantage. Sandbagging is the term.
I don't care about theory for the  next race, I may only have 50, maybe,  maybe 250
Let me qualify my time, then I add an extra 500 horse power right before the race.  Sure that works.
There is a record of every folder folding today. Unless he folds default
You can verify a list, you can see how many points I folded yesterday, last week, last several weeks, last month, last several months.
Yes it may be time consuming, but start 4 months in advanced, not two weeks.
What you have now is an event, stop calling it a race.
This CC like pro wrestling it's not really wrestling.  I hate to say it but.
"It is what it is"