Hot!Gamers Nexus Report

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Sajin
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 11:41:56 (permalink)
Evil_Betox
If the issue is not caused by the higher temps but by faulty components that means the cards dying, they would die anyway even if you installed the thermal pads and BIOS update?


Vbios update + adding thermal pads to faulty components isn't going to make them less faulty.


#31
ilyama
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 11:46:04 (permalink)
Can we have an answer from all  "your house will burn soon" members ? 
#32
specialkone
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 13:25:00 (permalink)
That's a great, thorough article by Gamers Nexus.
 
Loving my FTW 1080, thermal modded thanks to EVGA. It's not blowing up, just blowing through BF1, Doom, ROTTR and every other game I have.
 
And I'm no fan boy. I'd complain if I had a reason. It would have been a good idea if EVGA had installed the pads from the get go. But what really sticks with me is the superb customer support I experienced dealing with EVGA.
 
I'm betting when the next generation comes out EVGA will feel they have something to prove with their AIB design. Step UP Program .

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#33
ZeroBANG
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 14:32:03 (permalink)
yeah ACX 4.0 even if just for PR reasons needs like a Heatpipe directly touching the VRM, not just the GPU.  
 
the thermal pad solution (especially the one between the faceplate and the heatsink, which will collect DUST like crazy over time) is pretty Ghetto, but i'm not one to argue with results... next time though, Heatpipe!  
#34
bdary
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 14:38:57 (permalink)
I sure hope with this new info and test results from GN, all this fear mongering I've been seeing in this section of the forums will come to an end...

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#35
Seb6440
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 15:05:01 (permalink)
Good news .
The EVGA with thermal pads and with a custom fan curve (so acceptable Db level and heat) should now be atleast as well as others brands.
 
I'm not sure,
did they include the blackscreen issue in the 0.2 % ?
 
I should receive my 1080 FTW RMA tomorrow, I can't wait
#36
Seb6440
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 15:18:44 (permalink)
ilyama
Can we have an answer from all  "your house will burn soon" members ? 





It doesnt change anything about "exploding parts" ...
They have proofs for that.
You take it funny but you wont if it happens to you.
#37
ty_ger07
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 15:27:22 (permalink)
Seb6440
ilyama
Can we have an answer from all  "your house will burn soon" members ? 





It doesnt change anything about "exploding parts" ...
They have proofs for that.
You take it funny but you wont if it happens to you.


Video card parts have been "blowing up", "burning up", and "catching on fire" for years.  This is nothing new.  I guarantee that EVERY video card from EVERY manufacturer has seen at least one example since the dawn of video card time.  According to EVGA, the defects per million trend for these cards is not significantly different than what is normal in the past.
 
Move along.  Move along.  We simply have an internet Reddit-style hype culture bringing out more examples of the 0.0001% of cards which are having the same issues other video cards have had over the last decades.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2016/11/24 15:30:46
#38
ilyama
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/24 23:31:03 (permalink)
This thread is too important, it needs to be sticky ! :D
#39
acxcoolerssuck
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/25 00:16:32 (permalink)
Lazy_Bones
ZeroBANG
i think it is safe to say now that EVGA should ship Tinfoil Hats instead of Thermal Pads.  
 
GG on the Internet Panic though.... 0.02% failure rate and people panic like we are looking at the next 33% RROD situation.  


 
The missing thermal pads were, in my mind, a legitimate concern to have, as they were omitted by mistake and not design.
 
Worrying about the 0.02% is just plain silly. Especially since Evga has your back if you turn out to be one of the (very) few who has a capacitor blow up, and will most likely replace the card and any parts damaged by the card.


strictly speaking this is not a mistake but a design.
using midplate/cooling plate/base plate, whatever you call it, to cool the vram and vrm is nothing "wrong" and common eg msi gamings , galax hof, inno3d ichills..... 
midplate helps reduce gpu temp because two main heat sources on pcb are now separated to two independent heat dissipation (midplate and main heatsink). 
 
the way evga is now solving the problem is to connect two independent heat dissipation... which is not the native purpose of using midplate cooling.
 
some cards are using heat direct touch method to cool the vrm and vram from the main heatsink. these main heatsink design have a unique feature to cool the vrm and vram. to maximize the contact area of main heatsink to vrm and vram, horizontal fins (90 degrees folded) must be made. because evga was not intended to use main heatsink to cool the vrm, so the acx3.0 heatsink doesnt have folded horizontal fins to cool the vrm. 
 
however actually the result of adding pad between evga midplate and evga main heatsink is surprisingly good. it shows the chokes were very hot before and using heat direct touch method is way better to cool down the vrm temp. if evga acx3.0 heaksink has folded fins for cooling vrm then there will not be a thermal issue at all. reducing vrm temp also helps in lowering gpu temp a bit.  
 
adding pads to the back of the pcb for spreading heat to the backplate is really an additional way to cool the vrm and vram. there are few companies doing this like gigabyte waterforece and xtreme. if the midplate//main heatsink is good enough to cool the vram and vrm, backplate cooling is really optional and additional.   just simply dont trust backplate can help cooling performance without pads to make contact with the back of the pcb to the backplate.
 
 
 
 


 
 
 
the evga pad added between the midpate and acx3.0heatisnk:

 
post edited by acxcoolerssuck - 2016/11/25 00:21:57
#40
arokhantos
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/25 00:27:16 (permalink)
Suggestion to evga replace every card and recall all bad cards, mistakes happen no big deal, annoying defiantly.

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#41
Anarion
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/25 02:20:46 (permalink)
I guess this would explain why the non-FTW cards (i.e. reference cards with ACX 3.0 cooler) have been fine as far as I know.

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#42
lebel
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/25 03:34:01 (permalink)
I rang a very well known (British) retailer to ask a question about their Evga 1080 stock. I asked now that the Vrm cooling issue isn't an issue as previously thought, "do your current stock either have the updated pads and or/are they recent enough to alleviate concerns of the 3% to 4% issue, i.e, 100% fan fun?
 
I was told to buy an MSI or an Asus, asked could he elaborate and he said "as they don't know what they receive, its not worth taking the risk!"
 
Now I'm not advocating his views, more concerned that Evga aren't reassuring there retailers for them to deliver consumer confidence when asked!!!
 


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#43
stalinx20
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 04:26:17 (permalink)
This article already relates to so many threads that have already been created...

bobmitch
Very interesting!  Seems that thermals are quite normal, which is good to settle the mind.  I always had one question.  The ACX 3.0 and SC versions of the card use the reference pcb with one 8 pin vs all the other cards having two 8 pin.  I always wondered of the extra power to the FTW, and Classified did something to accelerate or make the issue happen.  Very rarely do you read about a reference ACX 3.0 1080 or SC "blowing up".  Just a thought...


I mentioned this repeatedly that the FTW was having this problem, but it was overlooked regarding the power phases and it was completely relevantto the issues the 980FTW suffered, having almost the same issues. Even still, with this in mind, the 1080FTW still suffered with overheating problems. I think y'all learned something; stay away from the FTWs and stick the reference models, you'll get, probably, the same overclocking capability and save a good chunk of change. Live and learn I guess.

#44
acxcoolerssuck
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 07:26:49 (permalink)
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1070_Quick_Silver_OC/4.html
 
msi gaming series, almost every ic chips are fully covered, like mosfet, mosfet driver, voltage controller; some are really optional but msi gives users satisfaction and confidence. and the midplate has lots of fin to enlarge the heat dissipation area.  these are somethings i want to see in the next acx4.0 design. the most important part to evga is that please do not use the midplate to intervene users adopting other air cooler or aio cooler....


 

#45
ty_ger07
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Re: Final EVGA VRM Torture Test: VRM Thermals Not the Killer of Cards 2016/11/25 08:32:24 (permalink)
arokhantos
Suggestion to evga replace every card and recall all bad cards, mistakes happen no big deal, annoying defiantly.


Only 0.0001% are "bad".  How can EVGA know which ones to recall until they fail?  Most likely there is nothing wrong with YOUR video card and most likely you DO NOT NEED the additional thermal pads.  Most likely you do not NEED to be here worrying or complaining.
#46
ty_ger07
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 08:48:53 (permalink)
acxcoolerssuck
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1070_Quick_Silver_OC/4.html
 
msi gaming series, almost every ic chips are fully covered, like mosfet, mosfet driver, voltage controller; some are really optional but msi gives users satisfaction and confidence. and the midplate has lots of fin to enlarge the heat dissipation area.  these are somethings i want to see in the next acx4.0 design. the most important part to evga is that please do not use the midplate to intervene users adopting other air cooler or aio cooler....



What is this? Why not use a thermal pad which is 3/4" longer?  Any why are they using standard cheap electrolytic capacitors when the competition is using poly film or tantalum capacitors?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvqUts9H9c
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2016/11/25 09:00:08
#47
acxcoolerssuck
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 08:57:59 (permalink)
ty_ger07
acxcoolerssuck
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1070_Quick_Silver_OC/4.html
 
msi gaming series, almost every ic chips are fully covered, like mosfet, mosfet driver, voltage controller; some are really optional but msi gives users satisfaction and confidence. and the midplate has lots of fin to enlarge the heat dissipation area.  these are somethings i want to see in the next acx4.0 design. the most important part to evga is that please do not use the midplate to intervene users adopting other air cooler or aio cooler....



What is this? Why not use a thermal pad which is 3/4" longer?  Any why are they using standard cheap electrolytic capacitors when the competition is using Tantalum capacitors?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvqUts9H9c


because the heatsink cant reach that two pad missing phases, and i am only talking about the mid plate design...
 
msi gamingx series is not using 4c85n like the fe card but 4c86n which is much more cheaper and weaker. but the new sliver card uses another mosfet from ubqi which should be a significant improvement.    if you take a look on colorful xtop, you shoulf find the xtop pcb is mostly the same as msi gamingx, with using 4c85n. i am not saying msi gaming x is a gread card in terms of pcb quality. 
#48
tucker147
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 08:59:24 (permalink)
ty_ger07
 
What is this? Why not use a thermal pad which is 3/4" longer?  Any why are they using standard cheap electrolytic capacitors when the competition is using Tantalum capacitors?

 


That thermal pad is on top of the chokes which do not actually require any type of cooling. So it wouldn't matter if it were 3/4" longer. Those are polymer capacitors not electrolytic, plus radial lead capacitors have a smaller footprint on the pcb and so you can fit more of them then if they were to use SMD film or tantalum capacitors which results in less output voltage ripple. More caps = less ripple but lower efficiency. Less caps = more ripple but higher efficiency.  



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#49
acxcoolerssuck
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 09:09:42 (permalink)
tucker147
ty_ger07
 
What is this? Why not use a thermal pad which is 3/4" longer?  Any why are they using standard cheap electrolytic capacitors when the competition is using Tantalum capacitors?

 


That thermal pad is on top of the chokes which do not actually require any type of cooling. So it wouldn't matter if it were 3/4" longer. Those are polymer capacitors not electrolytic, plus radial lead capacitors have a smaller footprint on the pcb and so you can fit more of them then if they were to use SMD film or tantalum capacitors which results in less output voltage ripple. More caps = less ripple but lower efficiency. Less caps = more ripple but higher efficiency.  


i dont know anything about capacitor, could you tell me more about the grade of the fe pcb cap vs this msi using cap//which type of these two is better???thanks
#50
seahawkgfx
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 09:10:03 (permalink)
Ironically the MSI also tested a bit warm in the review which discovered the problems of the FTW.
 
http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-gtx-1070-grafikkarten-roundup,testberichte-242137-8.html
 
 
#51
ty_ger07
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 09:17:13 (permalink)
tucker147
 
That thermal pad is on top of the chokes which do not actually require any type of cooling. So it wouldn't matter if it were 3/4" longer.

I know that the inductors generally don't need any cooling.  The point is that they CHOSE to cool them for one reason or another, and that being the case, why skimp?  I saw that acxcoolerssuck was advertising the card as an example of doing everything correctly, so I figured that I must point out their own areas where they lacked vision and lacked following through with their decision choice.  People are being extremely hard on EVGA claiming that EVGA made a bunch of bad design choices, when in actuallity, it has been shown that there really isn't anything wrong with EVGA's original design and all the hype is misguided, misdirected, and based on incomplete and innacurate information.
 
Those are polymer capacitors not electrolytic, plus radial lead capacitors have a smaller footprint on the pcb and so you can fit more of them then if they were to use SMD film or tantalum capacitors which results in less output voltage ripple. More caps = less ripple but lower efficiency. Less caps = more ripple but higher efficiency.  

Ok.
 
The funny thing is that EVGA's choice to use the nice, expensive tantalum capacitors could be the cause of the "burning" and "blowing up" images we have seen.  Or at least some of them.  Tantalum capacitors can catch fire or blow up.  There's no conclusive evidence at this point to point fingers at any one component yet, though.  All we really know is that this is an issue caused by defects (not a  design issue) which affects a small percent of the video cards.  The rate of defects is normal and similar to previous cards, according to EVGA.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2016/11/25 09:34:19
#52
acxcoolerssuck
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Re: Gamers Nexus Report 2016/11/25 09:39:02 (permalink)

I know that the inductors generally don't need any cooling.  The point is that they CHOSE to cool them for one reason or another, and that being the case, why skimp?  I saw that acxcoolerssuck was advertising the card as an example of doing everything correctly, so I figured that I must point out their own areas where they lacked vision and lacked following through with their decision choice.  People are being extremely hard on EVGA claiming that EVGA made a bunch of bad design choices, when in actuallity, it has been shown that there really isn't anything wrong with EVGA's original design and all the hype is misguided, misdirected, and based on incomplete and innacurate information.

claim down dude. if you take a good look on msi gaming x, for example, its heatsink cant reach that two pad missing phases because the location of these two parts are beyond the heatsink coverage. as you said, adding pad on chokes is really optional but msi has done it originally.
but the evga solution shows that adding pad on the chokes has significant improvement, so i dont think it is redundant. 
 
letting the ftw's mosfet to run over 100c is stupid but not dangerous. the mosfet can handle 125c, but it would derate very much when its temp goes up, the data sheet of that mosfet shows 35a @ 100c. if vrm temp is very high, then 10 phases are useless because they cant provide enough stated power at 35a, then 10 phases design become a totally marketing gimmick, and i am one of those who buy ftw for that 10 phaese 350w in total, i would feel like being cheated if ftw's mosfet actually cant provide this power due to the bad cooling design.
 
 
if you have notice the vram pad contact problem , you should know evga really did a huge mistake.
 
post edited by acxcoolerssuck - 2016/11/25 09:46:34
#53
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