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Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters)

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cokeman54
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2013/12/17 08:54:06 (permalink)
 

Upcoming changes to bigadv threshold


Any announcements about FAH policy, servers and new projects will be made here.
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Upcoming changes to bigadv thresholdby kasson » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:43 am
We have a policy of periodically re-evaluating the bigadv program, including the threshold required to run bigadv projects.
It is the intent of bigadv to match large and resource-intensive work units with some of the most powerful machines used by FAH donors. This "most powerful" line naturally advances with computing power. To date, bigadv has been a CPU-based program, and with increasing numbers of CPU cores and power of those cores, we have decided to lay out a roadmap of bigadv threshold changes for the next several months.

Feb 17 (two months from today): bigadv threshold will become 24 cores
Apr 17 (four months from today): bigadv threshold will become 32 cores

We want to give advance notice of these changes, and we recognize that change is not always welcome or comfortable. We should also emphasize that the science performed by donor machines is valuable in all parts of the FAH project, and part of the change in bigadv threshold is because we would like to encourage moderately powerful machines to help boost the capabilities of non-bigadv SMP projects where we do a lot of this science.

We also recognize that core count is not the most robust metric of machine capability, but given our current infrastructure it is the most straightforward surrogate to evaluate.

Thank you once again for your generous participation in the Folding@Home project!


kassonPande Group Member Posts: 1864Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:37 pmPrivate message This will kill the "ankle biters"


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#1

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    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:04:52 (permalink)
    Well that blows...  Looks like I've got 4 months left on my 24 core rig!!!  Not sure if I'll keep folding after that b/c my gpu's aren't worth running.  We'll see how much my production falls once this takes place.

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    texinga
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:12:29 (permalink)
    Well, at least I've been around Folding long enough to know that it is a matter of "when" (not if) changes like this will come.  This change will finally eliminate my SR-2 from being able to do Bigadv, but it serves many other functions anyway (including Crunching which it does very well).  The main thing is not to allow this news to adversely affect your DC interest because it is part and parcel of Folding.  Use the rigs that won't qualify for Bigadv for either SMP Folding, Crunching or both.  Fold and Crunch on my Bros and Sis'!! 



    #3
    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:18:03 (permalink)
    I'll keep folding i'm sure, but I'll have to figure out how to proceed once this takes place?  Fold SMP, ditch the 24 core rig and build a new rig, buy new gpu's that qualify for BigAdv.  I'll have to see when the time comes.  Fold, Crunch, Seti?  I'll decide in 4-6 months.  What's this crunching thing I keep hearing about?

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    bison88
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:25:27 (permalink)
    Sucks that they keep upping the core count needed for those of you already invested, hopefully they bump the points up even higher for those of you who meet the guidelines otherwise I find it hard to see the point.  This is why I am hesitant and don't really want to build a BigAdv rig myself just because it may soon become obsolete.
     
    From the sidelines here are my questions for those of you with these BigAdv rigs.  Aren't the Intel CPU's more powerful than the AMD ones with fewer cores than the counterpart?  I mean that seems like a slap to me.  Doesn't the higher core count CPU's need to be overclocked most of the time just to finish the WU in time?  Seems that core count isn't necessarily all that's needed, but a decent CPU speed whether stock or not is needed to maintain a clean finish?  Finally, we aren't pushing core counts as fast as we were years ago, so how high are they going to keep upping the core count for BigAdv when clockspeed naturally drops as a result because I'm sure hyper-threading doesn't count, or does it?
     
    Still trying to get an understanding of what you BigRiggers go through, it just seems so difficult for the investment.  I remember it wasn't too long ago they got rid of 16 core BigAdv.
    post edited by bison88 - 2013/12/17 09:27:17
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    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:38:47 (permalink)
    You know....  My 24 core rig finishes a bigadv project in 24-36 hrs...  Seems ridiculous that that's not good enough...  but who knows, maybe the new bigadv will do more calculations.  It sure seems greedy that finishing a project in about 1 day on a 24 core rig isn't good enough.  Whatever they are smokin', I want some!!!
     
    How long does it take to finish a bigadv project on a 780ti? 

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    cokeman54
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 09:51:04 (permalink)
    How long does it take to finish a bigadv project on a 780ti? 
    Bigadv is only on CPU at this time. There was some talk about GPU bigadv but no time frame. This is one way to cure running out of work in bigadv. At least my electric will drop back to normal (along with points).


     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    #7
    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:05:40 (permalink)
    Ahhhhh... So it's just QRB on gpus... Not bigadv.

    "The wise know their weakness too well to assume infallibility; and he who knows most, knows best how little he knows."   Thomas Jefferson
     
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    Viper97
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:19:26 (permalink)
    zildjian75
    What's this crunching thing I keep hearing about?


    You ask and so you will receive read here:
     
    http://forums.evga.com/tt.aspx?forumid=79
     
    That's the Crunching@EVGA team thread.
     
    https://secure.worldcommunitygrid.org/index.jsp
     
    This is the WCG forum... currently popular work units right now that are running full time are Fighting Aids @ Home and Mapping Cancer Markers.
     
    WCG and the BOINC client can do a lot with machines that no longer do the bigadv and you still get to contribute to what may one day be a solution to a health problem.
     
    Stop on by the other side... many of us fold and crunch... I'm one of them. 
    post edited by Viper97 - 2013/12/17 10:20:31


     
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    boballee
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:19:27 (permalink)
    Oh well...maybe someday.  I was looking forward to getting in the realm with an ankle biter here in the next couple of months.  Guess I'll focus that effort (money) on more/better GPU's.  Of course, I could always up my crunching.  Most of that is pretty lite weight. 



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    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:21:02 (permalink)
    Thanks viper... I will check those links out.

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    bobc36
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:25:14 (permalink)
    Welp, thats a sucky announcement. I was hoping they would add more project to the -bigadv pool instead of cutting the pc's capable.  I am willing to sell my G34 4p systems if someone would make a reasonable offer. 

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    Zagen30
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 10:45:18 (permalink)
    bison88
    Sucks that they keep upping the core count needed for those of you already invested, hopefully they bump the points up even higher for those of you who meet the guidelines otherwise I find it hard to see the point.

    I'm hoping that the reason for this new tightening is due to new projects in the pipeline that are even more resource-intensive.
     
    bison88This is why I am hesitant and don't really want to build a BigAdv rig myself just because it may soon become obsolete.

    They don't change the minimum core count that often; the last time they did it was 2 years ago.  If you build something now that is above the bare minimum, chances are pretty high that it'll be supported for a couple more years.
     
    bison88From the sidelines here are my questions for those of you with these BigAdv rigs.  Aren't the Intel CPU's more powerful than the AMD ones with fewer cores than the counterpart?  I mean that seems like a slap to me.

    Linux and Windows don't make a distinction between threads and physical cores.  To both of them, an i7-4770k appears to have 8 cores.  Stanford's servers use the OS's reported core count when sending out work, so a 16 core/32 thread Intel machine will be able to get bigadv work after these changes.
     
    bison88Doesn't the higher core count CPU's need to be overclocked most of the time just to finish the WU in time?

    I didn't think so.  People just do that because they can, and the high point values of bigadv mean that overclocking has a much higher effect on PPD.
     
    bison88Seems that core count isn't necessarily all that's needed, but a decent CPU speed whether stock or not is needed to maintain a clean finish?  Finally, we aren't pushing core counts as fast as we were years ago, so how high are they going to keep upping the core count for BigAdv when clockspeed naturally drops as a result because I'm sure hyper-threading doesn't count, or does it?

     
    The clockspeeds haven't been dropping that much, and more cores makes up for any lowering of the clockspeed assuming you're not slashing it by, say 75%.


     
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    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 11:12:05 (permalink)
    So... As of April, the new ankle biter will be what?  A 32 core G34 system?  Those are far more expensive than my f-socket 24 core system. It cost me about $600 to build about 8 months ago.  Last time I looked a g34 server mb capeable of 32 cores was $600 just for the mb.  The prices need to drop fast!!!  I hope they know what they are doing.  They could lose alot of BigAdv production.  I'm just in it bc it was so cheap.

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    clo007
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 11:15:31 (permalink)
    So glad my $800 investment will be non-useful less than 1 year after I purchased them :(
     
     
    Actually, I am going to ask a friend to see if he can write a program to simulate both 24-core ankle-biters as one 48 core machine. If he can't, then I will be going Office Space on these things!
    post edited by clo007 - 2013/12/17 11:17:17



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    clo007
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 11:20:03 (permalink)
    bobc36
    Welp, thats a sucky announcement. I was hoping they would add more project to the -bigadv pool instead of cutting the pc's capable.  I am willing to sell my G34 4p systems if someone would make a reasonable offer. 


    I will trade you my 2 ankle-biters for 1 of your G34 set-ups :)



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    bobc36
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 11:33:41 (permalink)
    I'll have to pass on that. But if this announcement angers you, bring it up on Foldingforum.
     
    Let your voice be heard.

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    #17
    Viper97
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:20:58 (permalink)
    Personally I think this is a wrong move again.  They did this two years ago and the folding community lost a bunch of folders.  They do it again and I suspect they'll lose another 100K folders.
     
    No worries... there's always crunching with them anklebiters and the science we can do crunching far out weighs PG's narrow focus.
     
    Besides we can use the help and extra focus... the Christmas Challenge 2013 is underway and we are in 11th place!  Help your brothers out! 
     
     
    Did I mention we have cookies? 
    post edited by Viper97 - 2013/12/17 12:23:21


     
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    bill1024
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:23:06 (permalink)
    Maybe if everyone turned off all FAH for 48-72 hours call it being on strike.
    They will get the hint.
    My hexcore AMD-1045T was o/c to 3.6ghz and used to get 18k or so on regular smp.
    Now I am lucky to get 10k ppd.
    I would not mind doing smp, but why the big reduction if they need more to fold them?

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    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:24:46 (permalink)
    bill1024
    Maybe if everyone turned off all FAH for 48-72 hours call it being on strike.
    They will get the hint.
    My hexcore AMD-1045T was o/c to 3.6ghz and used to get 18k or so on regular smp.
    Now I am lucky to get 10k ppd.
    I would not mind doing smp, but why the big reduction if they need more to fold them?

    I'm on board with this!!! Maybe we need to shut the evga team down for a few days....

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    bill1024
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:27:39 (permalink)
    Viper97
    Personally I think this is a wrong move again.  They did this two years ago and the folding community lost a bunch of folders.  They do it again and I suspect they'll lose another 100K folders.
     
    No worries... there's always crunching with them anklebiters and the science we can do crunching far out weighs PG's narrow focus.
     
    Besides we can use the help and extra focus... the Christmas Challenge 2013 is underway and we are in 11th place!  Help your brothers out! 




    I just may do that.

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    #21
    Zagen30
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:30:38 (permalink)
    Viper97
    Personally I think this is a wrong move again.  They did this two years ago and the folding community lost a bunch of folders.  They do it again and I suspect they'll lose another 100K folders.

    Do you really think they lost 100k contributors over a subset of work that, what, 1,000 people were running?  


     
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    bill1024
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:38:28 (permalink)
    Zagen30
    Viper97
    Personally I think this is a wrong move again.  They did this two years ago and the folding community lost a bunch of folders.  They do it again and I suspect they'll lose another 100K folders.

    Do you really think they lost 100k contributors over a subset of work that, what, 1,000 people were running?  


    There are quite a few donors with very powerful Intel quad and hexcore cpu's and AMD hex and 8 core cpus that will not fold regular smp wus .
    Maybe not 100k folders but I bet thousands of smp clients.
    post edited by bill1024 - 2013/12/17 13:44:27

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    #23
    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:41:58 (permalink)
    Now that I think about it...  I have been folding for 5 yrs...  Thousands of dollars in hardware not to mention the electricity.  I have not seen one bit of any results from this.  I'm not saying they don't exist, but does anyone have a link to some "discovery" bring made from all this work or are we all secretly mining bitcoins for them. 
     
    Just saying they get alot of free horsepower for running their operation, but keep shooting the hardware donors in the foot. It starting to remind me of alot of other not for profits...  Justa jobs program, while very little "work" gets accomplished.
     
    Don't anyone take this the wrong way...  but they are valid questions!!  They seem a little ungrateful from someone getting millions of dollars of work done for free.

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    Viper97
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:44:05 (permalink)
    Yes... I recall years ago when I first started the number of machines connected was in excess of 400K... now they are at 240K machines... some because of the changes to the rig requirements and some due to the cessation of PS3 folding.  All this in a couple of years.
     
    Pande wants the SMP folding now... and bigadv is on the back burner.  Problem is it's not cost effective in a folders eyes to crank out SMP units for meager points when the bigadv does far more point wise in the same amount of time.  Now factor in the cost per points and the cost for electricity for those points.  The return isn't there.
     
    Perhaps if they change the SMP point system from it's current low return value to something more in line with the work done/points rewarded they might not lose as many.
     
    I'm willing to bet though that all of this has been factored into a loss for PG and they are williing to accept that lose to shift the dynamics of the folding focus from bigadv to smp.
     
    We still have cookies left. 


     
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    Zagen30
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:47:25 (permalink)
    zildjian75
    Now that I think about it...  I have been folding for 5 yrs...  Thousands of dollars in hardware not to mention the electricity.  I have not seen one bit of any results from this.  I'm not saying they don't exist, but does anyone have a link to some "discovery" bring made from all this work or are we all secretly mining bitcoins for them. 
     
    Just saying they get alot of free horsepower for running their operation, but keep shooting the hardware donors in the foot. It starting to remind me of alot of other not for profits...  Justa jobs program, while very little "work" gets accomplished.
     
    Don't anyone take this the wrong way...  but they are valid questions!!  They seem a little ungrateful from someone getting millions of dollars of work done for free.


    http://folding.stanford.edu/home/papers


     
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    #26
    Viper97
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 12:48:10 (permalink)
    I'm not going to promote one cause (folding) over another (crunching) but at least with crunching I see what papers are being published, what is being discovered etc.  PG has always been secretive about things and they have been taken to task for lack of communication.
     
    That said this exact same conversation took place last change when the 16C's were sent to the recycle bin.  I'm just saying PG isn't the only game in town but it is one we all know and have dedicated our time to.
     
    I fold and I crunch... I may just split my time between them on my 48C rather than dedicate it all to PG and then just pop it over when the crunching team needs a boost.  Either way I'm in this until I croak... and since I'm not a frog I'm good for at least another 5 years.
     
     


     
    #27
    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 13:00:41 (permalink)
    Whelp...  I just figured it out!!!  Only from the genius minds of academia.
     
    Academia #1  "We need less folks folding BigAdv and more folding SMP."
     
    Academia #2  "Alright.  Let's just raise the requirements for folding BigAdv."
     
    Academia #1's 6th grade child - "Why not raise the payout of the SMP work unit to make the SMP more attractive while retaining the horsepower provided for BigAdv and therefore not alienating the ones who care and help our cause the most."
     
    *silence*

    "The wise know their weakness too well to assume infallibility; and he who knows most, knows best how little he knows."   Thomas Jefferson
     
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    #28
    yodap
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 13:05:58 (permalink)
    In fact our Crunching team as we know it was born from the last move like this. Great things can actually come from these decisions.


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    #29
    zildjian75
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    Re: Major bigadv change (death of the ankle biters) 2013/12/17 13:21:03 (permalink)
    Zagen30
    zildjian75
    Now that I think about it...  I have been folding for 5 yrs...  Thousands of dollars in hardware not to mention the electricity.  I have not seen one bit of any results from this.  I'm not saying they don't exist, but does anyone have a link to some "discovery" bring made from all this work or are we all secretly mining bitcoins for them. 
     
    Just saying they get alot of free horsepower for running their operation, but keep shooting the hardware donors in the foot. It starting to remind me of alot of other not for profits...  Justa jobs program, while very little "work" gets accomplished.
     
    Don't anyone take this the wrong way...  but they are valid questions!!  They seem a little ungrateful from someone getting millions of dollars of work done for free.


    http://folding.stanford.edu/home/papers


     yup...  Now I understand why they can't handle public relations to the donors.  Trying to figure all that out leaves no time for common sense.

    "The wise know their weakness too well to assume infallibility; and he who knows most, knows best how little he knows."   Thomas Jefferson
     
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    #30
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