• Hardware
  • GPU Power: One cable, One connection; no splitter cables.
2020/12/03 12:30:26
Intoxicus
Saw a top level post on r/Nvidia where someone fried their 3000 series GPU by using a splitter cable for GPU power.

DO NOT USE BOTH SPLITTER CABLE CONNECTIONS FOR GPU POWER!!!
Imho they should not even exist and are more trouble than they add value. It should be one cable, one connection for GPU power.

Supposedly a splitter should be fine with a 2070. Except that before I got my 3080 I had a 2070 that had instability issues on a power splitter cable. I went one cable, one connection and it all cleared up. That was on a 1000W EVGA Supernova G3 Gold. For the 2070 there was more than enough power available from the PSU. The splitter cable though seemed to limit the power enough to cause issues.

For the 3000 series I would never, ever, use the splitter on a splitter cable. One cable, one connection is my personal rule for GPU power. If you only have splitters available then only use one of the connections and cable manage the hanger.

One of the troubles is the connections are not rated for as much power draw as the cable. Sure you have two connectors GPU to split that load. *Trouble is at the PSU side you only have one connection and both GPU connectors drawing too great a load will exceed the rating for the PSU side connection!* (If an actual Electrical Engineer has more input and/or any corrections please drop in with some math and stuff.)

I see my 3000 series goes right up against the 400W power limit at max loads. I don't feel safe using both connections on a splitter seeing that power draw.
And that's not even the 450W power limit BIOS I haven't got around to trying out yet!

If you are running that 450W power limit BIOS on a 3080 using both connections on a splitter don't be surprised if your OC is limited and you get crashes and instability.

Even if you technically can use both connections on a splitter should you? 
If it's more ideal and yields better results to go one cable, one connection then why not just go one cable, one connection anyway...
2020/12/03 14:08:50
Intoxicus
So doing some research it seems the 225W rating for the cables might be a misunderstanding. 
It seems people are getting that from the 150W connector limit added to the 75W from PCI-E.
Which if that is the case means you're only getting 150W from an 8 pin PCI-E cable. Not 225W.

Which means at 150+150+75 you're 25W short of the 400W power limit using a splitter power cable on a 3 X 8 Pin 3080.

The splitter may be rated for 150W at the connections sure. But can the cable itself handle that?

Even if the cable could support 225W why push the limits on power connections and cables? It seems like an unnecessary risk for 0 benefit.


2020/12/03 14:37:48
Hoggle
It’s always best to use separate cables but a standard does exist. It should be perfectly safe with a quality PSU so while I can see stability issues for an overclock it should be ok at stock.
2020/12/03 22:38:57
kougar
The poster in question showed a photo of their PSU, and it was clear the PSU was designed with no less than FOUR outputs for PCIe cables. If the PSU is designed to split the load across multiple cables then it's always best to do so. Yes there are standards, but in the real world connectors do not always have good contact, whether that is due to oxidation or because the physical pins no longer perfectly match up.
 
Case in point, I once had a 980X slag an EPS12v connector. It wasn't caused by extreme load, but by poor pin contact that increased the natural resistance until the connector began to scorch. It's always best to divide the load across multiple cables when at all possible just in case, because connectors do wear out over time and with use. When dealing with high-power electronics like a 3090 there's no sense not taking every precaution ahead of time to prevent issues later.   
 
 
2020/12/04 08:59:16
Intoxicus
Here's a copy pasta of a comment I made in Reddit when someone asked is there data to support my position:

Yes, the 8 pin connectors are rated for 150W.
6 pin connectors are rated for 75W.
PCI-E delivers 75W through the slot.
 
That is easy to find and reference info, it's even on wikipedia. Some of the info is fundamental electronics and electrical engineering. I am not an electrical engineer myself, but my dad is and I grew up doing this stuff. You can ask an electrical engineer to fact check me and if I am wrong I would truly like to be respectfully corrected.
 
https://www.gpumag.com/gpu-power-connectors-explained/
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Power
 
It takes a bit of digging but you can find the engineering specs if you really want to go that deep. I found a bunch for PCI-E(PCI-E publishes them all,) but still trying to find some PSU engineering spec sheets currently.
 
Also Buildzoid has an excellent video that talks about this where he specifically says daisy chains should be fine unless we get into 400W territory. That video is 3 years old and was made before we even had 2000 series.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nM80JmzKvc
 
If you have a Daisy chain with connectors rated at 150W and the cable can handle more you have an issue at the PSU side. The PSU can only safely draw 150W through it's single connection and somehow deliver more than 150W to two 8 pin power connectors at the GPU. Electricity does not magically increase amps and volts to make more watts. Actually because of resistance and voltage drop you get less than you asked for in the form of less voltage and the same(or more) current(amps.) This creates heat at the connectors, unused or inefficient electricity turns into heat.
Also lets remember you're NOT getting 100% efficiency(that's almost impossible) and you're not going to get the full 150W you're asking for. And that he cables should be 16 gauge for pigtails, but is typically 18 gauge which isn't as good.(Lower numbers are thinker wiring.) Also some could be using Aluminum wiring instead of copper which creates more heat. There is apparently enough variability in PSU specs and design that a daisy chain could work fine on PSU and be magic smoke on another. Is that alone a risk worth taking?
If we do the math each PSU end power connection is 150W send and each GPU power connection is 150W request. So if we have a daisy chain on an EVGA FTW3 Ultra we have on the PSU the ability to send 150W x 2 + 75W from PCIE slot(375W total, 25W short of the 400W power draw at max load.) The GPU will be asking for potentially up to 3 X 150W +75W PCIE slot which is 525W total potential power requested. This is obviously not good if the PSU is trying to deliver more power than the connectors and cables are capable of handling. You'll only get that demand during peaks, but it only takes one 500W plus peak to make magic smoke.
 
When you ask for more power that means more current(amps) and voltage. Wattage is literally volts multiplied by amps (W==v*a). Voltage can be modeled as the "amount" of electricity and current modeled as the "pressure of flow" in a sense. Current is more dangerous as a lot of electricity without "flow pressure" moving it doesn't do much except maybe look cool and tickle a little. You give a little voltage a 1 amp of current and that can kill people in contrast. When your GPU asks for power it's that extra current it's not rated to handle that will create the magic smoke.
If we ask for more than the cable and/or connection can handle we have risk of "magic smoke." The PSU and GPU assume the cables can handle what they want to do. If the cable isn't good enough we get magic smoke at worst case. With a Daisy Chain we are asking for potentially 300W through a cable not at the correct gauge to handle that through a single 150W rated connection at the PSU. Also how does the PSU and GPU know to not push too much power through the Daisy chain cable? It doesn't know it's a daisy chain, it sees three 8 pin power connections and that it's getting power from them. How could it know not to push more than 150W through the daisy chain? (It doesn't, it could easily overload the daisy chain on the assumption that it's a properly rated cable.)
It makes 0 logical or rational sense to use a daisy chain for 2000 or 3000 series. 3000 series is definitely drawing too much power for it to be smart to use a daisy chain. 2000 series seems to be borderlining it depending on specific GPU and PSU.
 
1000 series had low enough power draw it was permissible. But even then I would not recommend it to be on the safer side. Jayz 2 Cents found his OC and performance was slightly limited on a 1080 something using a daisy chain. His results have not been verified by others repeating the same test, so scientifically it's not exactly solid data(yet.)
Now add in that it kinda depends on your PSU and how well it followed specs like 16 gauge wiring for a daisy chain cable and copper wiring it seems like it's just not worth the risk to use a daisy chain at all, ever.
I've come to question their existence. And now think they should not have ever been made. Daisy chains seem like a recipe for user error to destroy components. When it comes to making and selling a product an uniformed consumer could easily destroy it's prudent to minimize giving them ways to enact disastrous failure. Especially when there's a fire hazard potential.
The rule of thumb should be this: One cable per 8 pin GPU connection. If they're 2 x 6 pin that's actually fine as 6 pin is only 75W and a daisy chain on 2 x 6 pin is 150W(2*75W.) But for newer builders than can be a point of confusion so we should really stick to a "One cable per 8 pin connector" mantra when it comes to GPU power.
 
Thanks for coming to my Flange Talk. ;)
2020/12/04 09:05:39
Intoxicus
kougar
The poster in question showed a photo of their PSU, and it was clear the PSU was designed with no less than FOUR outputs for PCIe cables. If the PSU is designed to split the load across multiple cables then it's always best to do so. Yes there are standards, but in the real world connectors do not always have good contact, whether that is due to oxidation or because the physical pins no longer perfectly match up.
 
Case in point, I once had a 980X slag an EPS12v connector. It wasn't caused by extreme load, but by poor pin contact that increased the natural resistance until the connector began to scorch. It's always best to divide the load across multiple cables when at all possible just in case, because connectors do wear out over time and with use. When dealing with high-power electronics like a 3090 there's no sense not taking every precaution ahead of time to prevent issues later.   

 
If we get into Buildzoid's video on the topic he talks about how the daisy chain cables are typically at 18 gauge when they should be 16 gauge. And also other potential discrepancies between recommended PSU specs and actual products in the wild.

Also if the PSU is supplying 150W from the PSU side connection and the daisy is demanding 2X150W how do you think that will play out?
(hint: it involves magic smoke at the worst case)

Hoggle
It’s always best to use separate cables but a standard does exist. It should be perfectly safe with a quality PSU so while I can see stability issues for an overclock it should be ok at stock.


The PSU manufacturers and designers have to follow the non mandatory spec first. It seems you can not trust them to always be up to recommended specs. For example as previously stated it seems that too often the daisy chain cables are under spec and using the wrong gauge wiring. Which can create magic smoke it the cable is being asked to carry more power than it's capable of.
2020/12/04 10:09:13
KingEngineRevUp
Can I have a reference to this post on reddit you speak of? The daisy chain exist because it can be used as the 3rd plug, unless if you're going to XOC OC with a 550W+ bios or shunt mod. So they have their purpose. 
2020/12/04 10:19:40
KingEngineRevUp
Intoxicus
So doing some research it seems the 225W rating for the cables might be a misunderstanding. 
It seems people are getting that from the 150W connector limit added to the 75W from PCI-E.
Which if that is the case means you're only getting 150W from an 8 pin PCI-E cable. Not 225W.

Which means at 150+150+75 you're 25W short of the 400W power limit using a splitter power cable on a 3 X 8 Pin 3080.

The splitter may be rated for 150W at the connections sure. But can the cable itself handle that?

Even if the cable could support 225W why push the limits on power connections and cables? It seems like an unnecessary risk for 0 benefit.






A daisy chain cable is rated for 288W.
 
PCI-E Slot = 75W
 
Dedicated 8-pin = 150W
 
Daisy Chain 8-Pin = 288W
 
If you add all that up together that is 513W, so it's fine for a FTW3.
 
See Seasonics diagram and see Jacob doing it too with his FTW3. 
 

 
Seasonic diagram 
 

Attached Image(s)

2020/12/04 11:06:38
Intoxicus
KingEngineRevUp
Intoxicus
So doing some research it seems the 225W rating for the cables might be a misunderstanding. 
It seems people are getting that from the 150W connector limit added to the 75W from PCI-E.
Which if that is the case means you're only getting 150W from an 8 pin PCI-E cable. Not 225W.

Which means at 150+150+75 you're 25W short of the 400W power limit using a splitter power cable on a 3 X 8 Pin 3080.

The splitter may be rated for 150W at the connections sure. But can the cable itself handle that?

Even if the cable could support 225W why push the limits on power connections and cables? It seems like an unnecessary risk for 0 benefit.






A daisy chain cable is rated for 288W.
 
PCI-E Slot = 75W
 
Dedicated 8-pin = 150W
 
Daisy Chain 8-Pin = 288W
 
If you add all that up together that is 513W, so it's fine for a FTW3.
 
See Seasonics diagram and see Jacob doing it too with his FTW3. 
 

 
Seasonic diagram 
 




I'm aware of those recommendations.
I'm saying they're wrong. The whole point of my thread, etc is to point out that it seems they should not be making such recommendations.

Do you have a valid reference that shows the cable itself is rated for 288W? The *connectors* are still only rated at 150W per connector even if the cable is rated for 288W.
What is your source for that? Links please.

Some people have been saying they're rated for 225W on forums and it seems that comes from adding the PCI-E slot to the 8pin connector rating. You'll need to provide a valid source for that 288W before I believe it.

The daisy chain cables do have a purpose. For 2x6pin connectors on a GPU. Beyond that they should not be used. And when it comes to new builders it is safer to tell them "one cable per GPU power connection" so they don't get mixed up between 6 pin and 8 pin.

Also you didn't show everything showing that tweet:

Attached Image(s)

2020/12/04 11:57:50
KingEngineRevUp


I'm aware of those recommendations.
I'm saying they're wrong. The whole point of my thread, etc is to point out that it seems they should not be making such recommendations.

Do you have a valid reference that shows the cable itself is rated for 288W? The *connectors* are still only rated at 150W per connector even if the cable is rated for 288W.
What is your source for that? Links please.

Some people have been saying they're rated for 225W on forums and it seems that comes from adding the PCI-E slot to the 8pin connector rating. You'll need to provide a valid source for that 288W before I believe it.

The daisy chain cables do have a purpose. For 2x6pin connectors on a GPU. Beyond that they should not be used. And when it comes to new builders it is safer to tell them "one cable per GPU power connection" so they don't get mixed up between 6 pin and 8 pin.

Also you didn't show everything showing that tweet:





When I have time, I will look up the standard for the daisy chained PCI-E cable. But people have been running shunt modded cards drawing 500-600W off of 2x 8-pins for the 20 and 30 series cards over at Overclock.net. You might ask, how are they doing that? And how have they been okay for a few years now? The answer has to do more with the quality of your PSU and cables. There are also other issues like bad contact, you can use 3 dedicated PCI-E cables and if there is bad contact with one of the connectors it can still fry the connector. Using 3 dedicated just lowers that probability since you're splitting power delivery between all the cables. 
 
Der8auer made a good video about actually testing power cables checking voltages, current, power and temperature of the connectors and cables. 
 

 
@16:50 "As a conclusion, there is no difference between running 2x 8-pin or 3x 8-pin and if you're having a discussion with your friends, please link them to this video."

Again, he's using a good PSU and good cables. Obviously if you're using a **** budget PSU with crappy cables, you're playing with fire. 

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