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AnsweredHot!i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages

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bp7178
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2019/11/01 20:11:28 (permalink)
Has anyone else noticed that with all default settings, not even XMP applied, the Z390 Dark is hammering the 9900KS with voltage? With default settings, I'm hitting thermal limits within a few seconds when running Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX. Granted this is a stressful test, but yikes. 
 
I even tried re-pasting the CPU, same result. My idle temps are around 23c, but when it applies 1.477v under load...with default settings...the temps are through the roof. 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 00:55:12 (permalink)
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 00:59:09 (permalink)
WOW!..That's extreme Vcore there.
 
Have you updated the BIOS to v1.07 from the EVGA Download Center which adds full support for an i9-9900KS and includes all the updates/fixes/enhancements from all previous versions..Do that if you haven't yet.

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 04:48:37 (permalink)
bob16314
WOW!..That's extreme Vcore there.
 
Have you updated the BIOS to v1.07 from the EVGA Download Center which adds full support for an i9-9900KS and includes all the updates/fixes/enhancements from all previous versions..Do that if you haven't yet.


this
 
Default settings always are on the high side .... decreases compatibility ..... Best to set them yourself
 
 
How are you trying to cool that CPU ?
 
Intel® Core™ i9-9900KS Processor (16M Cache, Up to 5.00 GHz ...
 
 
Use this:  Intel® Performance Maximizer
 
The Intel Core i9-9900KS Review: The 5 GHz Consumer Special

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 06:43:48 (permalink)
Well, that Vcore may not be as bad as I initially thought.

Upon further investigation, your Max. Operating Voltage (Vcore) is 1.52V according to the 8th and 9th Generation Intel Core Processor Families Datasheet Volume 1 on page 117 in Table 7-2..And in the Support FAQ: What is the Core Voltage of Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor and how to check the processor voltage?..That is at stock/default frequency.

Prime 95 is AVX intensive and I would not even use that at all, no way..That's why your core temps are through the roof, unless you set an AVX Offset to downclock the thing when AVX apps run..I would use the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool or Intel Burn Test.
 
ADD: You set an AVX Offset in the BIOS.
post edited by bob16314 - 2019/11/02 06:54:12

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 06:54:46 (permalink)
360 AIO or Custom Loop are Needed for these space heaters

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bp7178
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 06:55:38 (permalink)
The max operating voltage is 1.52 that takes into account thermals. I'm obviously over that. 
I'm cooling it with a full custom loop that has two EK 240 PE rads. Fans are ML120 set at a fixed 66%. Pump speed is 100%. GPU (2080 Ti KPE w an EK block) temps are exactly like they always have been. 
 
You can't actually use the Maximizer with the Z390 dark. I have a post about that but the short version is that the Intel Watchdog Timer is disabled in the EVGA BIOS. The only workaround I have found is to use the XOC bios which can reveal MANY more settings and enable it in there. There's a couple of places in the XOC bios you have to turn it on. Then you can launch Intel XTU and verify that watchdog is on. 
 
I have tried this with 1.07 and the XOC bios, same result....very high voltages. Its unreasonable to expect someone to have to set a custom voltage just so they don't hit thermal limits on stock clocks when every bios setting is on default. The Z390 is overshooting the VID values by 125mv...with stock settings. 
 
This is within seconds of starting Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX. 
 
https://imgur.com/YCfEkO7
 

 
Same thing without the AVX.  
 
https://imgur.com/ArWMsJt
 

post edited by bp7178 - 2019/11/02 07:19:36
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 07:48:39 (permalink)
Just don't use Prime95..Or, add CpuSupportsAVX=0 to the local.txt..Or, apply an AVX Offset in BIOS..Otherwise, just keep hitting Prochot and maybe even Thermtrip..Intel won't guarantee a processor will recover from a Thermtrip event.

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Confucius say "He who has the most guns wins"
 
 
 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 07:50:28 (permalink)
Oh my goodness!  I would've had a heart attack seeing numbers like that.
 
I'd also venture in getting the Intel OC warranty just to be on the safe side if you haven't yet.

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kelkel1
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 08:31:41 (permalink)
I had the same issue with temps on my 9900K, not KS, until I went direct die.
 
Manual voltage adjustment is required, though.

Z390 DARK, 9900K, 2080 FTW3 ULTRA, GSKILL 4500, 960EVO M.2
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 08:50:18 (permalink)
I don’t think just saying not to use Prime 95 is a valid solution. Neither is custom voltages when the MB is applying that much at stock settings. Like I wrote before, the MB is +125mv over the VID values. 1.48 is too high.

In the newest Prime 95 version there are check boxes to disable AVX when you start the test.

I have a direct die kit on the way, but I think the auto voltages need to get sorted out. Imagine a user building their first PC with these parts. Custom tuning should not be required for stock settings...at all.
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 08:54:50 (permalink)
bp7178
I don’t think just saying not to use Prime 95 is a valid solution. Neither is custom voltages when the MB is applying that much at stock settings. Like I wrote before, the MB is +125mv over the VID values. 1.48 is too high.

In the newest Prime 95 version there are check boxes to disable AVX when you start the test.

I have a direct die kit on the way, but I think the auto voltages need to get sorted out. Imagine a user building their first PC with these parts. Custom tuning should not be required for stock settings...at all.



I am not disagreeing with you, quite the contrary. I actually saw over 1.5VCore on my 9900K.
 
However, it is what it is, until if and when evga decides to release a BIOS that addresses the situation.

Z390 DARK, 9900K, 2080 FTW3 ULTRA, GSKILL 4500, 960EVO M.2
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 10:30:40 (permalink)
I'll never use anything besides liquid metal TIM, ever!..TG Conductonaut dropped my cores temps 20C under load running IBT..But I'll attribute most of that to delidding my 8700K and replacing the Thermal Paste between the IHS and die with it too..Do not use on aluminum!

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Confucius say "He who has the most guns wins"
 
 
 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 10:53:15 (permalink)
bob16314
I'll never use anything besides liquid metal TIM, ever!..TG Conductonaut dropped my cores temps 20C under load running IBT..But I'll attribute most of that to delidding my 8700K and replacing the Thermal Paste between the IHS and die with it too..Do not use on aluminum!




+1.

Z390 DARK, 9900K, 2080 FTW3 ULTRA, GSKILL 4500, 960EVO M.2
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bp7178
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 12:30:38 (permalink)
Installed the 9900KS into an Asus Maximus XI. Using all default settings. Temps are as I'd expect. That is perfectly within normal range. No thermal throttling.

This is a BIOS problem that EVGA needs to address. There NO reason that a user shouldn’t be able to plop a 9900k into a Z390 Dark and have it hammer the poor chip with voltage like that at stock settings. This experience has been very surprising considering how good the Z390 Dark was with a 8086k. The 9900ks has been another story entirely.
 
This reminded me how much I hate Asus fan control...yikes. 
 
https://imgur.com/AsSLAyK
 
post edited by bp7178 - 2019/11/02 13:49:26
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 14:15:13 (permalink)
I am glad to see that the voltage has been confirm that it is in the normal range and Prime95 will have the temps go higher than normal.
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telehog
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 14:24:36 (permalink)
Put a I 9 9900 KS in Msi Ace Z390 yesterday. Running a 360 Aio ,push,pull on fans and it runs very cool with 100 percent load. 5.0 ghz 1.286 to 1.271 volts for hour . Temp. was under 55 c most of time on all cores, did see one core get  to 57 c and drop back down. Using Kingpins thermal paste. Looking forward to pushing this cpu at 5.2 Ghz 100 percent load about 65c at 1.310 volts. I did update Bios for new cpu. I bet with custom water loop 5.4 Ghz could ???

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 14:31:41 (permalink)
EVGATech_MattM
I am glad to see that the voltage has been confirm that it is in the normal range and Prime95 will have the temps go higher than normal.




Using a different motherboard, an Asus one is what fixed it. The screen shot in my last post was using Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX but on a Asus Maximus XI Formula with its current BIOS...EVGA Z390 Dark bios is broken. 
 
 This is while Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX is running on the same 9900ks but in a Asus MB. 
 
https://imgur.com/IIssK2X
 

 
post edited by bp7178 - 2019/11/02 14:38:16
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 14:36:18 (permalink)
Not good.

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 14:45:24 (permalink)
telehog
Put a I 9 9900 KS in Msi Ace Z390 yesterday. Running a 360 Aio ,push,pull on fans and it runs very cool with 100 percent load. 5.0 ghz 1.286 to 1.271 volts for hour . Temp. was under 55 c most of time on all cores, did see one core get  to 57 c and drop back down. Using Kingpins thermal paste. Looking forward to pushing this cpu at 5.2 Ghz 100 percent load about 65c at 1.310 volts. I did update Bios for new cpu. I bet with custom water loop 5.4 Ghz could ???




Those are great temps and you could be on a good OCing chip as well.  The 320mm AIOs are close to custom.  Really no point in spending the extra dough since it will cost much higher but all up to the user if they want to head down that route.  Yes, you might be able to get that high but it's hard to say.  I think going 5.2+ in general usually enters you in exotic cooling (LN2, etc.)

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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/02 23:09:47 (permalink)
I sent a ticket to EVGA support on this. On the Asus board the voltage was MUCH lower and didn't throttle. I hope this can be addressed. 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 03:16:02 (permalink)
 My Z390 Dark has been throwing extra voltage into the equation of late. Ended up needing to lower my vcore setting in bios to accommodate this odd behavior with my 9900k. 
Currently have it set 1.14v in bios, which gives me around 1.32-1.36v under load and stable.

Don 
 
 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 07:39:29 (permalink)
d.burnette
 My Z390 Dark has been throwing extra voltage into the equation of late. Ended up needing to lower my vcore setting in bios to accommodate this odd behavior with my 9900k. 
Currently have it set 1.14v in bios, which gives me around 1.32-1.36v under load and stable.




Auto, Adaptive, Override?

Z390 DARK, 9900K, 2080 FTW3 ULTRA, GSKILL 4500, 960EVO M.2
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 08:28:52 (permalink)
 The problem I think is with the "auto", which is the BIOS default, setting for the LLC. 
 
The auto LLC seems to be the same as the "default" choice in the drop down menu for LLC. This applies way too much voltage under load. When I switch to the +90% Max Droop, my vcore voltages for Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX hover around 1.285v as measured on a multimeter. Temps are MUCH better of course. I can even apply a -35mv offset to this and still not get errors in Prime 95. (EDIT: -35mv might have been too optimistic, -25mv is more realistic). 
 
This is Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX and a -35mv offset. Max temps on the cores is between 63 and 72c. With the default BIOS settings, I was hitting thermal limits and throttling. Vcore is about 1.258-1.269v which is around 200-215mv(!) lower than with the default BIOS settings. This is also consistent with the results I observed when I swapped the Z390 Dark for a Asus Maximus XI Formula. 
 
https://imgur.com/Jqi5RKe
 

post edited by bp7178 - 2019/11/03 11:10:32
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 10:50:40 (permalink)
bp7178
 The problem I think is with the "auto", which is the BIOS default, setting for the LLC. 
 
The auto LLC seems to be the same as the "default" choice in the drop down menu for LLC. This applies way too much voltage under load. When I switch to the +90% Max Droop, my vcore voltages for Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX hover around 1.285v as measured on a multimeter. Temps are MUCH better of course. I can even apply a -35mv offset to this and still not get errors in Prime 95. 
 
This is Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX and a -35mv offset. Max temps on the cores is between 63 and 72c. With the default BIOS settings, I was hitting thermal limits and throttling. Vcore is about 1.258-1.269v which is around 200-215mv(!) lower than with the default BIOS settings. This is also consistent with the results I observed when I swapped the Z390 Dark for a Asus Maximus XI Formula. 
 
https://imgur.com/Jqi5RKe
 





Image appears too small to read, unlike your previous.
 
Sort of on topic, I tried running AIDA64 Stability Test with only FPU checked.
VCore at 1.250, Adaptive, VDroop -50%, XMP1, C-States off, HT enabled, AVX0.
Bios 1.07 resulted in several BSOD; 0x3B, 0x3D, 0x0A all of which are related to low VCore.
However, using BIOS 1.03 with identical settings, FPU ran without BSOD, although temps were in the low 90°C.
post edited by kelkel1 - 2019/11/03 10:57:07

Z390 DARK, 9900K, 2080 FTW3 ULTRA, GSKILL 4500, 960EVO M.2
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bp7178
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 14:00:22 (permalink)
Same pic without the screen capture that shows Prime 95 running. 1.258v while running Small FFT with AVX. This is the auto (default settings) for the vcore with only LLC adjusted. Highest core temp was 72, average of all of them was 68c. Granted this wasn't running very long, but with the BIOS defaults I would be over 95c and throttling due to thermals in the same amount of time, less than a minute. 
 
https://i.imgur.com/Baxfmhz.jpg
 

post edited by bp7178 - 2019/11/03 14:08:59
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 16:31:30 (permalink)
kelkel1
d.burnette
 My Z390 Dark has been throwing extra voltage into the equation of late. Ended up needing to lower my vcore setting in bios to accommodate this odd behavior with my 9900k. 
Currently have it set 1.14v in bios, which gives me around 1.32-1.36v under load and stable.




Auto, Adaptive, Override?


Adaptive.

Don 
 
 
EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.2 GHz all cores | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra | 32 GB G Skill Trident Z 3200 MHz CL14 DDR4 Ram | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler | EVGA T2 Titanium 1000w Power Supply | Samsung 970 Pro 1TB m.2 Nvme | Samsung 970 Evo 1TB m.2 Nvme | Samsung 860 Evo 1TB SATA SSD | EVGA DG 87 Case |
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/03 18:21:14 (permalink)
kelkel1
 Sort of on topic, I tried running AIDA64 Stability Test with only FPU checked.
VCore at 1.250, Adaptive, VDroop -50%, XMP1, C-States off, HT enabled, AVX0.
Bios 1.07 resulted in several BSOD; 0x3B, 0x3D, 0x0A all of which are related to low VCore.

However, using BIOS 1.03 with identical settings, FPU ran without BSOD, although temps were in the low 90°C.


Don’t set a voltage with the most recent bios. Leave it on auto adaptive and use the LLC to control it. Start with default and test. It will likely be too high. Keep adding more droop until your voltages and temps are in check.
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/04 12:56:39 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby bp7178 2019/11/04 13:41:51
bob16314
Well, that Vcore may not be as bad as I initially thought.

Upon further investigation, your Max. Operating Voltage (Vcore) is 1.52V according to the 8th and 9th Generation Intel Core Processor Families Datasheet Volume 1 on page 117 in Table 7-2..And in the Support FAQ: What is the Core Voltage of Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor and how to check the processor voltage?..That is at stock/default frequency.

Prime 95 is AVX intensive and I would not even use that at all, no way..That's why your core temps are through the roof, unless you set an AVX Offset to downclock the thing when AVX apps run..I would use the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool or Intel Burn Test.
 
ADD: You set an AVX Offset in the BIOS.




That 1.520v means ZERO AMPS going into the CPU !
It is NOT a load voltage!
It is the maximum VID Target that AC Loadline and Thermal Velocity Boost voltage optimizations can raise the "base multiplier VID" to and then send it to the VRM as a target voltage (this is on the CPU +12v to VRM line), before vdroop is applied (VRM loadline).  This VRM Target voltage cannot exceed 1.520v.
 
If you are operating at all Intel default specifications at 5 ghz, default VRM Loadline (1.6 mOhms for 8 cores) and maximum AC Loadline (which is equal to VRM Loadline), and TVB enabled, the load voltage (measured on the die via VCC_Sense or directly from the VRM via a multimeter probing the proper cap--not even by onboard read points) would be 1.213v at max amps spec (193 amps), 1.280v at 150 amps, 1.320v at 125 amps, and 1.36v at 100 amps of current.
 
(edited.  I keep getting my maths wrong.  Sorry, guys.  I had the wrong load voltage above a few times).
 
1520 mv - (193 * 1.6)= 1.213v
1520mv - (150 * 1.6)= 1.280v
1520mv - (125 * 1.6) = 1.320v
1520mv - (100 * 1.6) = 1.360v
1520mv - (75 * 1.6) = 1.40v
 
And so on....
 
post edited by Kylearan - 2019/11/04 14:14:22
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Kylearan
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Re: i9-9900KS, Z390 Dark and High Voltages 2019/11/04 14:19:26 (permalink)
bp7178
 The problem I think is with the "auto", which is the BIOS default, setting for the LLC. 
 
The auto LLC seems to be the same as the "default" choice in the drop down menu for LLC. This applies way too much voltage under load. When I switch to the +90% Max Droop, my vcore voltages for Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX hover around 1.285v as measured on a multimeter. Temps are MUCH better of course. I can even apply a -35mv offset to this and still not get errors in Prime 95. (EDIT: -35mv might have been too optimistic, -25mv is more realistic). 
 
This is Prime 95 Small FFT with AVX and a -35mv offset. Max temps on the cores is between 63 and 72c. With the default BIOS settings, I was hitting thermal limits and throttling. Vcore is about 1.258-1.269v which is around 200-215mv(!) lower than with the default BIOS settings. This is also consistent with the results I observed when I swapped the Z390 Dark for a Asus Maximus XI Formula. 
 
https://imgur.com/Jqi5RKe
 





The Z390 Dark is a board meant to get overclocking world records.  And with the best transient response (someone needs to donate an Apex XI to buildzoid so he can test that vs the Dark), it will do just that.  But the Dark is sorely missing some features other boards already have:
 
Current (Amps) monitoring (does the VRM controller on the dark support this?)
On-die sense voltage monitoring (this is the exact CPU voltage that the CPU is getting, unaffected by power plane impedance. All maximus XI boards use a diode to wire the Super I/O chip to read from the CPU die sense.  Boards with the IR 35201 and Intersil VRM controllers that have VR VOUT access will show this as VR VOUT.
 
AC and DC Loadline settings. <--this is an issue.
 
The lack of access to AC/DC Loadline is a pretty huge thing.  It's unknown just what the Dark is using for AC Loadline. (AC Loadline is only used on "Auto", "offset" or "adaptive" voltage modes, but a high AC Loadline must NOT be combined with a high vdroop reduction !! AC loadline is ignored on fixed vcore modes)
 
Can you go into HWinfo64 and go to the "CPU" information section, scroll a few pages down, and look for the AC Loadline value? 
post edited by Kylearan - 2019/11/04 14:22:20
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