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Hot!Why X299 Gets low foot traffic.

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glocked89
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/22 13:50:12 (permalink)
dmann304
When did this mesh thing come out, or become a problem? Seems X99 didn't use Mesh for an HEDT platform? than if so, why would they choke the CPU
with a weird cache setting? when this wasn't an issue with 5960's, or even 6850 CPU"s which were based on X58 .  


Mesh was never a problem. Mesh is actually the solution for higher core count CPUs. As you increase in core count, ringbus cache becomes less effective and mesh is more efficient. 10-core 10900k is probably the highest core count cpu you'll see with ringbus. While mesh is more efficient with higher core count cpus, the speed is diminished due to the design. This reduction in speed is what limits those that are chasing high fps like 240 or 360hz monitor users. Its not only about core speed, but cache and ram as well.
 
With gaming applications, more than 8 core 16 threads(20 threads with 10900k) isn't really required for you to achieve those high fps numbers so it would make sense to stay on a cpu with a blazing fast ringbus cache paired with high memory overclocks. Makes sense for your typical gamer. You get the fps you want and you don't have to spend as much as you would for a X-series platform.
 
Now if games started having a requirement to have at least 20 threads to achieve high fps or at least scaled past that, then high core count cpus will start to look real nice. For example, the 5950x would do really well, even better than it is right now. But I feel AMD is severely limited by their Infinity Fabric clocks. 2ghz, a shame, but thats another topic...
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ZoranC
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/22 15:00:40 (permalink)
glocked89
dmann304
When did this mesh thing come out, or become a problem? Seems X99 didn't use Mesh for an HEDT platform? than if so, why would they choke the CPU
with a weird cache setting? when this wasn't an issue with 5960's, or even 6850 CPU"s which were based on X58 .  


Mesh was never a problem. Mesh is actually the solution for higher core count CPUs. As you increase in core count, ringbus cache becomes less effective and mesh is more efficient. 10-core 10900k is probably the highest core count cpu you'll see with ringbus. While mesh is more efficient with higher core count cpus, the speed is diminished due to the design.

^^^
What he said. When I first benchmarked my memory I knew I wasn't going to get as high scores as I would with ringbus but I was still bit disappointed when I saw them. However, as I continued testing I realized Intel, it seems, made architecture change with sight on future, in order to be able to scale better. That is when I had to ask myself what matters more to me, high score at lower core counts or better results as applications scale up, and answer was the later. "Low core count" performance is of interest to certain market demographic, others are more interested in total throughput they can get and ability to run "games" at "almost as good" level just adds icing on that cake.
 
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/22 17:03:30 (permalink)
Yea, but these X chips can do 5ghz, so why does the mesh seem to effect games? its the core speed, and ram, and GPU.  And they used
higher then 10 cores on Broadwell E or 6850, but the Skylake X Chips went to Mesh,  They should of kept things the way they were with X99
or even X58, which beat their counterpart mainstream line.
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glocked89
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/22 19:03:19 (permalink)
dmann304
Yea, but these X chips can do 5ghz, so why does the mesh seem to effect games? its the core speed, and ram, and GPU.  And they used
higher then 10 cores on Broadwell E or 6850, but the Skylake X Chips went to Mesh,  They should of kept things the way they were with X99
or even X58, which beat their counterpart mainstream line.


Mesh is the architecture of the cache. It has its pros and cons. Same with ring-bus. Cache is important when doing anything with a CPU. Just read what I wrote carefully. I don't know what else I can tell you
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/23 15:51:16 (permalink)
Thanks, yea.   I seen stuff over history how cache effcts OS, Apps, and even games, but even back in the celeron days, cache was the only thing
that was crippled.  So what make the earlier HEDT skus do so well over mainstream? and X299 based X cpu's can't keep up with mainstream? Its
like the tides turned since the I7 920
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ZoranC
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 12:35:38 (permalink)
dmann304
Yea, but these X chips can do 5ghz, so why does the mesh seem to effect games? its the core speed, and ram, and GPU.  And they used
higher then 10 cores on Broadwell E or 6850, but the Skylake X Chips went to Mesh,  They should of kept things the way they were with X99
or even X58, which beat their counterpart mainstream line.

 
dmann304
I seen stuff over history how cache effcts OS, Apps, and even games, but even back in the celeron days, cache was the only thing
that was crippled.  So what make the earlier HEDT skus do so well over mainstream? and X299 based X cpu's can't keep up with mainstream?

 
Once again, it is not as simple as “core speed, and ram, and GPU” that play a role and that’s it. Ringbus/mesh/whatever play a role in final behavior and Intel had to make a tradeoff decision of “performance right now but no scalability and performance bottleneck later” vs. “not highest performance right now but better scalability and performance with no bottleneck down the road”. If you Google you can find number of articles what is mesh really, why Intel went mesh and what are benefits of it future wise.
 
X299 based X CPU’s can’t keep up with mainstream? Only if current games are your only interest. Once again, many of people out there use their systems for different purpose. “Gaming” CPU doesn’t give me number of PCIe lanes I need so from my perspective it is mainstream that can’t keep up with my Cascade Lake-X.
 
... and I don't care how much foot traffic X299 forums get. I didn't buy my system to fiddle with it, obsess over it, and keep talking about it. I bought it to so it can do work I need to throw at it.
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 14:06:46 (permalink)
Thats a much better perspective on the platform, and i meet the opposite mainstream couldn't keep up with HEDT.  I came from the old school where 
even X58 smoked anything mainstream from the 920 to 990x, and i use my rig for more than gaming, and having all the threads do help balance work
loads.  I just don't get why Intel takes lesser interest in HEDT, vs before in performace, while AMD wlkas away with t eh crown.  
 
They had a good thing going with X99, they should of just doubled up on that system and they had multi core ringbus based Chips att, it supported
Xeon chips that were 20 cores 40 threads.
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HeavyHemi
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 14:18:39 (permalink)
Because I could find no real reason to 'upgrade' from by 6850k that runs all day at 4.5ghz. For me, there's no tangible advantage. I suspect most late model X99 feel the same. I expect we'll see MCM or multiple ring cache variants. At some, point sheer die size becomes the limiting factor in speed in maintaining data coherency and timing across the entire die. Realize how far an electron travels in a billionth of a second... then multiply by five. 
 
BTW, just did a clean install of Windows 10. Cause MSFS 2020 corrupted security descriptors on a junction and no way to repair it. It goes well... until you see ll the bangs in device manager. Holy cow. Used to just get the one for not installing Intel Turbo Boost 3.0. You can't even find the download on the intel site any more.  Had to install the latest intel IME, chipset and manually update the USB drivers. Could be worse... the real issue is the TB of Windows games you cannot restore. Sometimes I hate MS.
post edited by HeavyHemi - 2021/02/24 14:43:55

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ZoranC
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 14:20:22 (permalink)
I don't feel that Intel is taking lesser interest in HEDT. They are two different product lines with two different product cycles. Just like with other products (whether it is photography, audio, whatever) when you have "consumer" line vs. "professional" line. Consumers get more frequent update but not advanced features with better specs.
 
AMD walks away with a crown? Depends on who you ask and what criteria they use. For me AMD is not taking the crown. My crown is not measured based on paper specs nor some slight difference in performance, it is based on how less likely I am going to encounter headaches when using something.
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 15:15:20 (permalink)
That might be why i am not in a hurry to use AMD, even though they cought up, i feel the less annoying bumps in the road with an Intel chipset, and
CPU.  even in the X2 era with AMD, i had headache after headache with XP and Cool and quiet. 
 
But a well rounded system is what i got now, it games very well, and does all what i need to do.
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ZoranC
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 15:36:49 (permalink)
dmann304
But a well rounded system is what i got now, it games very well, and does all what i need to do.



Then that is the only thing that in the end matters.
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/24 17:00:11 (permalink)
I have noticed that alot of youtubers, like Debaur, Jay2cents, Vince EVGA, Buildzoid all use this board Dark X299. Because the very best
vrm, and has the best dashboard in the lineup. and use as their primary workhorse because of its stability, and durability and can contest
better then any board on the planet, as to why i got one, and with a cascade lake x chup fully up to dae, i am set for years.
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Gonnagamesoon
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/25 00:56:38 (permalink)
This thread has made me realize I have a lot to learn.. lol
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safan80
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/25 01:57:59 (permalink)
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dmann304
If, x299 favors a small nitch market? then those who do alot of workstation related things, with gaming as the relax time, who are folks
favoring that has high bandwidth memory, and dozens of cores? and X299 is the only thing favoring that for Intel.

Workstation users are running the X299. The C422 offers more memory support and registered ECC and the C621 offers hex channel memory support with more cache per core plus registered ECC. Workstations tend to use Xeons/TRs and ECC memory. With the X299 you are limited to 128GB of ram, the z490 can do that. The C422 setup can do 1TB and the C621 does 2TB. The best chip for the X299 is a i9-10980XE. You can go with the C621 and if you want overclocking there's a chip called W-3175X which is not even the most expensive chip that works with a beefy C621. In General with the C621 platform there are over 50 Cascade Lake cpus to pick from if you pick one of the three boards that support the W-3175X they can run all those chips. There's maybe what 10 options for the X299? It can't run the 2066 Xeon CPUs either. Be careful when you throw around the workstation word for a system that is mostly just for gamers(the x299). The workstation system can game while working.
 
 
 
dmann304
I have noticed that alot of youtubers, like Debaur, Jay2cents, Vince EVGA, Buildzoid all use this board Dark X299. Because the very best
vrm, and has the best dashboard in the lineup. and use as their primary workhorse because of its stability, and durability and can contest
better then any board on the planet, as to why i got one, and with a cascade lake x chup fully up to dae, i am set for years.


You might want to take into account that they are concerned 3dmark in a lot of their use cases and the dark x299 probably gives them the best numbers. I personally don't run 3dmark and I really haven't in a long time. PCI-E 5.0 will be out in 2022 and I bet you will be upgrading. ;D
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/25 15:34:07 (permalink)
Why do these guys have a hardon for 3dmark so much? its a test, not real life workloads.  It must be a dick neasuring thing with these
guys.  I use it for the stability, not the 3dmark scoreboard.
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Merilwen
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/26 09:02:10 (permalink)
dmann304
Why do these guys have a hardon for 3dmark so much? its a test, not real life workloads.  It must be a dick neasuring thing with these
guys.  I use it for the stability, not the 3dmark scoreboard.




Because they enjoy pushing hardware to the limits for that score.  10yrs ago I knew a guy who dumped $5,000+ every time Alienware put out a new high end laptop to pretty much only benchmark it and then dump it on ebay...
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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/26 15:28:02 (permalink)
What a mental ilness.  Just to peeze Ebay, and get a score. like its a measuring contest.  Wow, i didn't buy 12 grand in hardware to
score in portroyal, who it was made by some youtubers:  Joker Productions, and Steve Gamers Nexus.
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wmmills
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/26 17:15:51 (permalink)
Woah, guys, its Vince's job to overclock the x299 and get records everywhere he can. The youtubers do battle royale type overclocking contests with people like Vince to make content for there streams etc... and the x299 with its purely excellent vrm construction and really pretty much overkill throughout the pcb makes it one of the very few to reach new records with. So essentially, they use it for work. 

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dmann304
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/26 17:23:30 (permalink)
Thats why i bought the Dark, due its real strong vrm status, and well built pcb.  I used the X58 X3 back then , and was the board folks
were making the one that was contested against.  and with a high core count cpu, and the board, i can't complain.  
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HeavyHemi
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Re: Why X299 Gets low foot traffic. 2021/02/26 19:13:26 (permalink)
dmann304
What a mental ilness.  Just to peeze Ebay, and get a score. like its a measuring contest.  Wow, i didn't buy 12 grand in hardware to
score in portroyal, who it was made by some youtubers:  Joker Productions, and Steve Gamers Nexus.


Benchmarking is a hobby like spending 2K to get another 1% horsepower.  Why do we need to know you spent 12K? Seems like a lot for marginal gain over X99. Folks do things for all sorts of reasons.
I have 4KW RMS in my living room. Not so that I can necessarily do ear bleed loudness,  it's that you need huge amounts of power to truly replicate the low end and the air mass you need to move. Currently running 3 15" on each side for the bass , 12's for mid bass and my own custom mid-range and tweeter cabs. Can't say how much I've spent. Most of it you can't buy. I built my own cabs and crossovers. You can't buy ones that handle 2KW RMS. You should see the low pass inductors I've melted, about fist sized.

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