GP300
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So I'm looking to expand my folding "farm" and I have an old motherboard with 4 x PCIE 2.0 x16 slots, Phenom II X6 1090T, & 8GB of ram. Do you all think I'd be able to run 2-3 RTX 2060 KOs without them being bottlenecked? Thanks in advance for any advice!
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castrator86
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/13 17:58:16
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45nm Thuban... I remember when the Phantom line first came out and I was blown away by the performance compared to my Athlon x2.... That said, to answer your question; it's going to depend on the board. I think a lot from that era were x16, x4 in the second slot; which I think you'll see some performance loss.
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/14 04:50:49
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I got the model off the motherboard and it actually has 4 pcie2.0 slots and I found the following info from a Tom's Hardware article "Electronic switches allow the M4A79T Deluxe to automatically configure its x16-length slots as dual x16, quad x8, or single x16 and dual x8 pathways. A fifth switch for each secondary slot allows it to use alternative pathways when an x1 card is installed." So it looks like I should be good with 2 x RTX2060s but if I go to 3 of them then it might hurt performance by limiting 2 of them to PCIE2.0x8 ?
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favrepeoria
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/14 05:43:40
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I don’t think you will bottleneck a 2060 on PCIE 2.0 x8. If you do it will be very marginal maybe 5% drop. In theory 2060 is fine in 3.0 x4 which is the same as 2.0 x8
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jedi95
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/14 11:33:45
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That's actually going to be x16-x16 if only 2 cards are used. The AMD 790FX chipset has 32 lanes for GPUs. That shouldn't be an issue for FAH. I recommend against trying to use 3 cards in that system though. Most current GPU coolers are the open air style and they don't work well if you pack them close together. 2 open slots between each GPU seems to be sufficient for airflow.
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castrator86
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/14 19:25:48
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jedi95 That's actually going to be x16-x16 if only 2 cards are used. The AMD 790FX chipset has 32 lanes for GPUs. That shouldn't be an issue for FAH. I recommend against trying to use 3 cards in that system though. Most current GPU coolers are the open air style and they don't work well if you pack them close together. 2 open slots between each GPU seems to be sufficient for airflow.
This, as long as the board has the PCI-e lanes to support dual, that's your best choice. 3 of them and you start getting cramped & generating a ton of heat ...unless you go liquid cooling...
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 07:49:19
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Decided to order just 1 2060KO for the time being to see what it does and then add my current 2060KO into this system after the 3000 series comes out and I upgrade my gaming rig to something in the 3000 series line. Thanks for all the advice and I'll update when I see what effect PCIE2.0 has on PPD. Also, I'd probably go to an open air system if I have more than 2 GPU in the rig.
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Hoggle
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 08:02:07
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You could always have one and probably limit it to 8X and see how that does to the numbers vs. having them running at 16X. That can tell if it's worth having three cards or if you would be better off with two.
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sparetimepc
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 08:26:04
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Hoggle You could always have one and probably limit it to 8X and see how that does to the numbers vs. having them running at 16X. That can tell if it's worth having three cards or if you would be better off with two.
I was kind of curious how much a difference it would be running a gpu at x8 instead of x16 as well in folding.
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Cool GTX
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 08:36:13
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PCIe 3.0 - 8x vs 16x Folding should not matter
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whiskywarrior
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 08:52:29
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I dont think folding requires a lot of data transfer back and forth. I guess we don't know where all of the data is loaded, but WUs can easily be placed on VRAM and all calculations and memory management done internally on the CPU. Some WUs put intermittent load on the CPU every 5% of completion or so. Perhaps to save the last portion of calculations to RAM. But the constant throughput does not seem to be present, so I think that the PCIe lanes really bottleneck much.
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kerryd
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/23 18:47:48
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I could be wrong but in a post a long long time a go . Think it was saying that as long as you where X4 or more there was not much drop off could even had been X2 but my minds not as good as it once was. Well more then the normal drop of for each slot . I think that post was before PCIe 3.0 or just before . I miss the help forum when I know it had a post on something some one needs . https://forums.evga.com/How-does-4x-PCIE-slot-affect-folding-m298715.aspx Hope link works
post edited by kerryd - 2020/04/23 18:58:31
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ProDigit
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/30 21:58:34
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On core 22 you'll come by, as long as you run Linux. You might see a 20% performance penalty on GPUs running a pcie 2.0 x8 slot. Remember that PCIE 2.0 x8 = PCIE 3.0 x4 in terms of speed. Then there's the slower CPU and ram, that also affect performance by a bit. If I were you, I'd buy pcie x16 ribbon cables, the cheap $10-15 20cm grey risers. You could lift the middle GPU up from being sandwiched, which will allow better cooling for GPU 1 and 3. In Linux, pcie 3.0 x4 is just ok for RTX GPUs up 'till a 2070 or so. In windows, there's extra pcie overhead. So you'll want to run Linux.
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kerryd
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/04/30 23:54:45
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It was Detailed in The old Looking for help thread
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favrepeoria
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/01 06:33:22
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ProDigit On core 22 you'll come by, as long as you run Linux. You might see a 20% performance penalty on GPUs running a pcie 2.0 x8 slot. Remember that PCIE 2.0 x8 = PCIE 3.0 x4 in terms of speed. Then there's the slower CPU and ram, that also affect performance by a bit. If I were you, I'd buy pcie x16 ribbon cables, the cheap $10-15 20cm grey risers. You could lift the middle GPU up from being sandwiched, which will allow better cooling for GPU 1 and 3. In Linux, pcie 3.0 x4 is just ok for RTX GPUs up 'till a 2070 or so. In windows, there's extra pcie overhead. So you'll want to run Linux.
Curious if you know what would bottleneck a PCIe 2.0x4 slot on Linux? I have a slot open that has that. At some point I will want to fill it but I have a 3.0x8 slot still open too that will get a 2080ti. Don’t want to buy a 2080ti for the 2.0x4 if it will be bottlenecked obviously. I imagine a 2060 would probably do fine. Edit. Well it seems I goofed when looking for the mobo in this build. I swear it called out 2 3.0x16(operating as x8/x8 both occupies) and then 2.0x16(operates x4). But it seems to be 2 3.0x16(x8/x4) and then 2.0x16(x4). Puts a damper on my expansion plans then. Seems I will need a new mobo first.
post edited by favrepeoria - 2020/05/01 06:46:51
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ipkha
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/01 13:27:27
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Bottlenecks are CPU after Pcie bandwidth. Linux has less overhead for CPU, but can't eliminate a CPU bottleneck.
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/10 10:41:50
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Well, after switching the 2 2060KOs it would appear that the bottleneck is somewhere on the old 790FX board and it is causing close to a 20% loss in PPD versus the B450 board. I can't seem to figure out where that bottleneck but I may try OCing the 1090T CPU and maybe even the ram. The pcie bus is showing 60% max saturation on PCIE 2.0x16 so I don't think it's that. I'm open to any ideas you all may have and will start looking for a new board, CPU, & RAM. I'm thinking B450 with 2 PCI3.0 slots, R3 3100, & 8GB of DDR4 (Does RAM speed or latency matter more with FaH?)
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ipkha
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/10 10:56:55
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The old cpu is most likely the bottleneck if you're no pcie saturated. Ram speed matters slightly over latency. Ddr4 3200 is a nice sweet spot and given similar prices tighter timings are better. Ryzen can't sync past DDR4 3800 reliably and at the price point you're looking at going above 3200 is just too expensive.
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 05:47:32
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Well, I swapped the 1660Super that was in a Ryzen 3400G system into the 1090T system and saw the same ~20% reduction in points even going from a Win10 to Linux Mint System. So...I decided to part out the 1090T system, sell the 1660Super and once some of it has sold I will pick up a Ryzen 3300X, Mobo with 2-3 PCIE slots, DDR4, and probably another 2060KO Ultra. One interesting thing I found when swapping and comparing the 2 2060KO Ultras I have is the 1st one was made in Taiwan and the 2nd one was made in China.
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castrator86
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 08:58:33
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Strange considering I wouldn't think data transfer rate of PCIe 2.0 would be a bottleneck nor the CPU prowess would matter all that much. I'm guessing it's something to do with the board's chipset bottlenecking?
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favrepeoria
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 12:42:38
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GP300 Well, I swapped the 1660Super that was in a Ryzen 3400G system into the 1090T system and saw the same ~20% reduction in points even going from a Win10 to Linux Mint System. So...I decided to part out the 1090T system, sell the 1660Super and once some of it has sold I will pick up a Ryzen 3300X, Mobo with 2-3 PCIE slots, DDR4, and probably another 2060KO Ultra. One interesting thing I found when swapping and comparing the 2 2060KO Ultras I have is the 1st one was made in Taiwan and the 2nd one was made in China.
Another option for CPU would be Ryzen 3 1200AF if you could get it at retail price of $60. 4 cores 8 threads for $60 is crazy. Looking into upgrading my B450 mobo because second slot of PCIe 3.0 only will do x4. There are some other B450s will do x8 on second slot but the third is always limited by the chipset to PCIe 2.0 x4. You have to go to X570 to not be limited to 2.0x4 on last slot for AMD
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 15:49:06
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Yeah, I'm going to wait until the B550 boards are released and see what they offer for number of PCIE slots. I'll see where 3100 & 3300X are price wise are at that time. Would be sweet to find aB550 that does triple PCIE @ x16, x8, x8
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favrepeoria
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 17:29:24
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X570s don’t on the third slot. They will do 4.0 x4 tho if what I have read is right so that should be equivalent to 3.0 x8. Of course we would need some more cards that support 4.0. https://www.msi.com/Mothe...X570-ACE/SpecificationPretty high end X570 that if all three slots were populated would potentially be with 3000 series ryzen 4.0 x8/x8 and chipset 4.0 x4. MSI has one that will do 4.0 x8/x4/x4 and chipset 4.0 x4 as well
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ipkha
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/12 17:59:36
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B550 is for OEM use mostly. A rebrand of B450 boards that support the latest CPUs. At least that's what I gathered from the news sites. For folding doesn't much matter the exact breakdown of slots. As long as they are x8 pcie3. Too bad no mb can split an x8 pcie4.0 into 2 x8 pcie3.
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ProDigit
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/13 06:33:08
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For reference, you don't want to run lower than Core 21 PPD on an RTX 2060. A slow RTX 2060 runs at 970k PPD (usually Windows), a fast one at 1.04M PPD (linux) on core 21. If you're running a 2060 on a PCIE 2.0 x4 slot, and your PPD is below 1.04 on core 22, your GPU is bottlenecked too much by the PCIE bandwidth. You could lower the GPU, by getting a 1650 Super, or 1660 or 1660Super. They probably will work fine on a PCIE 2.0 x4 slot with Core 22. Also make sure your other GPUs don't lower too much in PPD. If you're having 2 fast GPUs (like 2080Ti) in the first two slots, and populate the third slot, it makes no sense if the third slot gets you 600kPPD, if the top 2 get lowered by 600k PPD.
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/13 09:56:43
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I was seeing approximately a 20% reduction in points on Core22 WU with the 2060KO on a PCIE2.0x16 slot and it was showing 60% bandwidth saturation on that slot. I also tried swapping in a 1660Super and was seeing about the same reduction in PPD as well but didn't check the PCIE saturation before pulling it out and selling it.
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favrepeoria
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/13 10:45:06
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GP300 I was seeing approximately a 20% reduction in points on Core22 WU with the 2060KO on a PCIE2.0x16 slot and it was showing 60% bandwidth saturation on that slot. I also tried swapping in a 1660Super and was seeing about the same reduction in PPD as well but didn't check the PCIE saturation before pulling it out and selling it.
Be careful with reading PCIe utilization from HW monitoring tools. AMD and Nvidia have both admitted that it pretty much has no bearing on actual usage or bottlenecking.
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GP300
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/14 12:28:13
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favrepeoria
GP300 I was seeing approximately a 20% reduction in points on Core22 WU with the 2060KO on a PCIE2.0x16 slot and it was showing 60% bandwidth saturation on that slot. I also tried swapping in a 1660Super and was seeing about the same reduction in PPD as well but didn't check the PCIE saturation before pulling it out and selling it.
Be careful with reading PCIe utilization from HW monitoring tools. AMD and Nvidia have both admitted that it pretty much has no bearing on actual usage or bottlenecking.
I was not award that HW monitoring wasn't accurate, thanks for the heads up on that. I was using XServer and GPU-Z to monitor bandwidth.
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ProDigit
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Re: Multi 2060 KOs on PCIE2.0 w/ Phenom II X6 1090T ?
2020/05/14 15:06:10
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On such slow PCIE 2.0 standard, you really should run Linux on it. For multi-GPUs, stick with Ubuntu 18.04 or 16.04. (18.04 preferred). Any newer and you'll run into driver issues when running more than 1 GPU. It'll run it, but no OC, no fan adjustment without crashing desktops.
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