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Hot!More Core 21 WU...

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favrepeoria
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2020/06/18 21:23:13 (permalink)
Project 16907 seems to be core 21 and it is extremely poorly optimized. Estimated 1.7 million ppd on a RTX 2080 ti. Might push me over the edge and shut it down for the month.
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    ramcharger89
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 05:21:34 (permalink)
    Lots of poor WU's  program. If your running The Beta Client just remove it.

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    #2
    favrepeoria
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 13:08:18 (permalink)
    Just have advanced on.
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    ipkha
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 13:14:19 (permalink)
    You get what you get with the Beta flag. It's well known to give bad WUs and low point WUs as they tweak cores and introduce new science.

    Currently they are/were validating a new Core 22 version. They are still running beta code to make smaller WU available for lower end cards.

    The Science is still good on Core 21 WU, and scientists won't move to new code for no reason. If their tools are still geared to Core 21 it makes sense to keep using it until Core 22 tools are readily available.

    If all you care about is points and optimizations, go play with some boinc nonsense that give up tons of them. Folding isn't really about points, it should be about the science. Points have never been consistent in Folding no matter how they tweak the formula.
    post edited by ipkha - 2020/06/20 13:18:11


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    bill1024
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 21:49:32 (permalink)
    ipkha
    You get what you get with the Beta flag. It's well known to give bad WUs and low point WUs as they tweak cores and introduce new science.

    Currently they are/were validating a new Core 22 version. They are still running beta code to make smaller WU available for lower end cards.

    The Science is still good on Core 21 WU, and scientists won't move to new code for no reason. If their tools are still geared to Core 21 it makes sense to keep using it until Core 22 tools are readily available.

    If all you care about is points and optimizations, go play with some boinc nonsense that give up tons of them. Folding isn't really about points, it should be about the science. Points have never been consistent in Folding no matter how they tweak the formula.



    That's pretty harsh. Who the heck are you to tell someone why they should fold.
    And if it is all about the science, convince people to fold with their CPU, everyone keeps saying "It ain't worth it"
    The "Science" is still good on CPUs and those WUs can't/won't be ported over to GPU.
     
    post edited by bill1024 - 2020/06/20 22:08:03

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    #5
    favrepeoria
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 22:38:21 (permalink)
    ipkha
    You get what you get with the Beta flag. It's well known to give bad WUs and low point WUs as they tweak cores and introduce new science.

    Currently they are/were validating a new Core 22 version. They are still running beta code to make smaller WU available for lower end cards.

    The Science is still good on Core 21 WU, and scientists won't move to new code for no reason. If their tools are still geared to Core 21 it makes sense to keep using it until Core 22 tools are readily available.

    If all you care about is points and optimizations, go play with some boinc nonsense that give up tons of them. Folding isn't really about points, it should be about the science. Points have never been consistent in Folding no matter how they tweak the formula.


    More about they are wasting donated resources if they choose to use the worse program. They are limiting the amount of science that can be done by my donated resource because they selfishly have decided to poorly optimize their algorithm and are making my GPU perform at half the potential points wise due to making a new project with core 21.

    I am more gauging my day to day by comparing points to make sure I am running consistent. When I start seeing clips of much lower points for a sustained period of time, I assume something is wrong except in this case it was just a series of poorly optimized core 21. Normally I can at least do 2.6 million ppd on core 21 even but this was barely getting 1.7 million. Just frustrating more than anything else. I made this setup just for folding but like you said I could switch to boinc if I want. They need to consider that when they decide to make core 21 instead of core 22 on a new project because you may just end up pushing people away. I know Prodigit has said he stopped folding because of the mix of core 21 and 22. When you are working with donated resources, you should not be pushing them away is my main point.
    #6
    bill1024
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/20 22:53:49 (permalink)
    favrepeoria
    ipkha
    You get what you get with the Beta flag. It's well known to give bad WUs and low point WUs as they tweak cores and introduce new science.

    Currently they are/were validating a new Core 22 version. They are still running beta code to make smaller WU available for lower end cards.

    The Science is still good on Core 21 WU, and scientists won't move to new code for no reason. If their tools are still geared to Core 21 it makes sense to keep using it until Core 22 tools are readily available.

    If all you care about is points and optimizations, go play with some boinc nonsense that give up tons of them. Folding isn't really about points, it should be about the science. Points have never been consistent in Folding no matter how they tweak the formula.


    More about they are wasting donated resources if they choose to use the worse program. They are limiting the amount of science that can be done by my donated resource because they selfishly have decided to poorly optimize their algorithm and are making my GPU perform at half the potential points wise due to making a new project with core 21.

    I am more gauging my day to day by comparing points to make sure I am running consistent. When I start seeing clips of much lower points for a sustained period of time, I assume something is wrong except in this case it was just a series of poorly optimized core 21. Normally I can at least do 2.6 million ppd on core 21 even but this was barely getting 1.7 million. Just frustrating more than anything else. I made this setup just for folding but like you said I could switch to boinc if I want. They need to consider that when they decide to make core 21 instead of core 22 on a new project because you may just end up pushing people away. I know Prodigit has said he stopped folding because of the mix of core 21 and 22. When you are working with donated resources, you should not be pushing them away is my main point.



    They have been doing that for years now and will not stop anytime soon.
    Go to the Folding forums and see how they treat the donors. 
    They could not care less.
     

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    #7
    Opolis
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/21 13:04:12 (permalink)
    ipkha
    go play with some boinc nonsense


    Sorry...you lost me there.
     
    I think a better way to frame it is that the points credited for any DC project do not necessarily equate to the value of your contribution to the researchers.
     
    I don't think projects would release a certain type of task or WU unless they were getting some benefit from it.
     
    If I get 1 point per task or 1 million, I've still completed one task for the project.
    Most people worried about hitting the EVGA bucks levels would be better off just saving $10 in a piggy bank each month, once you factor in the cost of electricity (as in, the bucks do not even cover the cost of running the hardware, so you are a net loss every month).
     
    Now, FAH does not have a good track record with the community but that it a whole other rabbit hole to go down.
    post edited by Opolis - 2020/06/21 13:06:48

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    kougar
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/21 16:31:28 (permalink)
    Yes, there are x21 projects for advanced flag users right now. It still beats no WU's at all, for several days last week GPU sat idle around lunch time because it couldn't get anything for 30-60 minutes. 
     
    Secondly, be aware projects are not fly-by-night affairs. These are created by specific scientists/students studying specific things. These projects can span anywhere from a month to over a year conducting of testing with a specific focus. If they started a project using Core 21, then they will continue to use Core 21 until the project is concluded. Changing mid-project to Core 22 introduces a new variable and new source of error. 
     
    The folding team has already stated on multiple occasions that they will phase out Core 21 entirely only once all active projects with it have concluded. 


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    ipkha
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 09:07:33 (permalink)
    Most posts against Core21 are due to low points. If all you care about is points than there are plenty of boinc projects that give out tons of points.
    If you're just mad about getting points for EVGA bucks, stopping folding due to low point return is stupid. You still need them for the bucks.
    If you support the Science than you're wasting time complaining as you're still helping.

    Hardly anyone complained when Core18 transitioned to Core 21. But now that Core 22 is out, everybody is griping about Core 21 still being used. Folding@Home is focused on the Science and the points are reflective of that. They try and balance them as best they can.

    And to further my point, there are no other GPU based projects out there targeting this type of research.


    #10
    Opolis
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 09:57:03 (permalink)
    http://www.gpugrid.net/science.php
     
    Also, from project admin:
    The simulations that we are currently running in GPUGRID are going to be used to help protein folding, including proteins coming from the virus giving COVID19. As you know this effort started before the outbreak and would last for several more months.

    As soon as we are able to apply the current GPUGRID database simulations to perform studies related to COVID19 we will let you know the outcome.

    In summary, if you are running GPUGRID now, you are contributing to a longer term project that has implications for COVID19 but it is not just specific to it.
     
    Put your CPU to work while folding or running other GPU projects:
    http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/
     
    Make sure to join team "crunching@evga" for each project and feel free to PM or jump in the Crunching forum for help.
     
    Final option: accept that FAH points will fluctuate as new tasks are developed and run to completion.
    I have seen much worse changes in points between similar hardware that was more tied to PG management than to points variation between projects (-bigadv).
    post edited by Opolis - 2020/06/22 13:09:08

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    ipkha
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 11:47:34 (permalink)
    Good to know there are some boinc projects in the same sphere. I've always focused on FAH as I couldn't find any good GPU boinc tasks that focused on medical research.


    #12
    Opolis
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 13:07:35 (permalink)
    Cool.  People should know that they do have other options (albeit without any bucks rewards).  There are even more medical projects out there but I only listed those closely related to FAH research.

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    #13
    STR1D3R_2
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 16:06:33 (permalink)
    Thank you for that Opolis!! I was unaware that GPUGRID was doing this research. Awesome!!
                                                                


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    bill1024
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/22 17:30:46 (permalink)
    World community grid had been doing great research for years with great real world results
    And their points are not that great
    But it is a great project ran by competent project managers And who’s backbone is one of the largest computer companies there is IBM
    Not sure why BOINC was dragged into this anyway
    But that answer that did drag BOINC into this thread is the exact kind of answer to a donor that I would expect to see at the folding forums.
    Not what I expected to see at EVGA forum

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    #15
    ipkha
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/23 12:25:50 (permalink)
    Regarding the original post about optimization.
    The Core21 WU are optimized. Compared to the older Core18 they are better. Only compared to Core22 do they potentially lack optimization. But Core22 is new and is active development, therecwere plenty of teething problems and certainly workloads would return bad results or crash midstream. And you have to remember that the researchers still need to process the results returned. It may be optimal to process Core21 for a particular research group. Especially as Core22 results might not be interchangeable with Core21 results leading to inefficiencies on the backend.

    I either forgot or didn't know the Gpugrid was doing biomedical research. Certainly they are an alternative to FAH if Core21 is not to your liking. The other boinc projects in this arena are CPU only. At least the ones I found are mainly CPU tasks.

    My contention is that one should participate in projects they believe in. Points are really only applicable in regards to the EVGA promotion. Otherwise, all folders are in the same boat and there is no disadvantage to Core21 as everyone gets the same point spread. As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no profitable was to fold for EVGA bucks given the electricity use and cost of hardware. So I do encourage people upset with the 'optimization' of WUs to participate in a boinc project they believe in. Even if they fold to their EVGA bucks threshold and then switch over.

    I'm not sure the average folder knows what a "beta" is. Betas are inherently risky as the code is being tested. Lots of Core22 projects has numerous problems in the beta phase. Entire classes of AMD cards were unable to run certain units and lower end cards were dramatically disadvantaged as they worked out the points calculation and protein characteristics.


    #16
    kerryd
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/23 22:46:52 (permalink)
    Suck it up FHA will and can   F U .I even still fold when I can  . I seen some go off topic For crunching . Do what you want to do it all counts to help . Ya EVGA points are nice but it costs you more then you get . You got to want to help to HELP .



     
    #17
    kougar
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/24 20:00:08 (permalink)
    Got a F@H work unit early today that was Core 22, but had even less PPD than I normally see on Core 21. So careful what you wish for. 


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    ProDigit
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/28 22:49:10 (permalink)
    ipkha
    You get what you get with the Beta flag. It's well known to give bad WUs and low point WUs as they tweak cores and introduce new science.

    Currently they are/were validating a new Core 22 version. They are still running beta code to make smaller WU available for lower end cards.

    The Science is still good on Core 21 WU, and scientists won't move to new code for no reason. If their tools are still geared to Core 21 it makes sense to keep using it until Core 22 tools are readily available.

    If all you care about is points and optimizations, go play with some boinc nonsense that give up tons of them. Folding isn't really about points, it should be about the science. Points have never been consistent in Folding no matter how they tweak the formula.

    There is only one project that offers more points than FAH on Boinc, and that's The Collatz Conjecture.
    There are about 2 that offer similar points than FAH, one being PrimeGrid, also a math problem solving program.
    If math is not the science you want to support, then most other (a good 30 projects) are offering WAY lower points than FAH.
    Kind of like FAH without QRB.
    I know of a certain project that utilizes 1 core for an entire day, and credits you between 30 to 150 points for it...
     
    Boinc does not support a QRB system, instead points are connected to either CPU runtime, or a fixed amount of PPD per WU.
    #19
    ProDigit
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/28 22:52:44 (permalink)
    Opolis
     
    Now, FAH does not have a good track record with the community but that it a whole other rabbit hole to go down.


    Things all changed once Mr Pande left, and 7im passed away.
    #20
    ProDigit
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/28 22:57:27 (permalink)
    I didn't leave because of core 22 / core 21 mess-up btw.
    I left because of the moderators treatment towards enthusiasts.
    Occasionally I still pass by the forum, but I stopped folding altogether.
    I now run Boinc. It's much more challenging to make a great Boinc rig.
    Sure, I could focus on The Collatz, which doesn't need anything in terms of hardware, other than a (or many) fast GPUs.
    But the other projects are interesting too!
    Getting to run certain projects on powerful GPUs requires balancing them out.
    Knowledge of, and getting around in Linux, is pretty much a must, if you are serious about boinc.
    The Windows clients run a lot of their projects in VMs, basically Linux in Windows. So it makes sense to just run them in Linux natively.

    FAH had it's challenges, Boinc has it's own.
    That being said, the boinc forums are more peaceful and happy; and they have tens of project forums as well.
     
    #21
    ipkha
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/29 06:08:14 (permalink)
    Personally I don't care about the points. I mostly run FAH, WCG and LHC@Home. Badges and points are nice for marking progress, but really not important to me (EVGA bucks excluded). Progressing the science should be the goal of anyone participating in distributed computing.
    I've also dabbled in Seti, Primegrid and GPUgrid.


    #22
    bill1024
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/06/29 08:38:54 (permalink)
    ProDigit
    Opolis
     
    Now, FAH does not have a good track record with the community but that it a whole other rabbit hole to go down.


    Things all changed once Mr Pande left, and 7im passed away.


     
    But you made this thread not too long ago.
    https://forums.evga.com/Had-enough-of-foldingforum-m3023659.aspx
    Quote from the thread.
    While I always believe in second chances,
    When you're specifically been told, that your input isn't valuable;
    The admins say you say things that you really haven't said anywhere,
    and they say they're better off without you, 
    Then I think it's time to leave the folding forum.
     
    I truly tried, but Bruce, ToTow, Joe_H, and possibly rafwiewiora,
    All the same person!
    Then they accused me of having a second account on their forum, Ha!
     
    While I'll still be here, they truly have done what no company should ever do to people that are helping out THEM!
    They don't see that thousands of people are leaving annually, because of THEIR behavior!
    Then they ask for feedback and involvement, but when you do, your posts get locked, and stuff like that...

    Byebye Folding forum!
    Figure it out yourselves!
    My next project will be Boinc.
    At least the admins are reasonable there!"  End quote
     
    So I guess you are -unbanned and post there regularly now? 

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    #23
    ProDigit
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 07:13:09 (permalink)
    Bill, remember you're on my blocked list, on suspicion of being Bowman.
    Besides, your quote has nothing to do with the question you ask.
    I visit the forums occasionally, but I am banned there. Because the arsehole bruce banned me because of participating.
    He's really the worst forum moderator ever!
    He shouldn't even be the forum moderator of his own company!
    Instead an admin that only interacts with the forums on the most necessary stuff.
    Not ban people for participating.

    Yes, too bad 7im and Pande left. It's gone seriously downhill since, with this bowman graduate now running a company, he clearly has no skills for doing!
     
    He should spend his time fixing the fah issues that have been mentioned millions of times over there, and leave the forum to people with CS skills.
    Instead he spends more time banning people, and just making the forum a place where people don't want to go.
    But I guess he knows what he's doing...., Heck, he doesn't even know his own company's program!
    If he did, he would have fixed compatibility with Linux a long time ago!
    Yet something as simple as fixing a user interface for a modern operating system (linux) is too much for him.

    Not to mention, his contribution to his own company is ran from old crappy hardware??
    And he expects others to contribute with modern hardware?
    Yes, running old computers that he found in the trash, contributing like what? a few ten of million of points per month?
    Some users fold that per day!
    post edited by ProDigit - 2020/07/04 07:21:36
    #24
    Gunsvnvmc
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 07:19:02 (permalink)
    ProDigit
    Bill, remember you're on my blocked list, on suspicion of being Bowman.
    Besides, your quote has nothing to do with the question you ask.
    I visit the forums occasionally, but I am banned there. Because the arsehole bruce banned me because of participating.
    He's really the worst forum moderator ever!
    He shouldn't even be the moderator of his own company!
    Yes, too bad 7im and Pande left. It's gone seriously downhill since, with this graduate now running a company he clearly has no skills for doing!
     
    He should spend his time fixing fah issues, and leave the forum to people with CS skills.


    I agree Bruce is a walking talking rectum.



     
     
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    #25
    bill1024
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 07:45:56 (permalink)
    ProDigit
    Bill, remember you're on my blocked list, on suspicion of being Bowman.



     
    I don't know who Bowman is, but thank God for small favors.
     
    In another thread you had said they banned you for having two or more identities.
    I asked you several times to post a link to the thread. You never did. For the life of me I could not find it either
    I went through every post you had made with you name and could not find it. 
    Post a link please.
    post edited by bill1024 - 2020/07/04 07:53:38

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    #26
    ProDigit
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 08:14:25 (permalink)
    bill1024
    ProDigit
    Bill, remember you're on my blocked list, on suspicion of being Bowman.



     
    I don't know who Bowman is, but thank God for small favors.
     
    In another thread you had said they banned you for having two or more identities.
    I asked you several times to post a link to the thread. You never did. For the life of me I could not find it either
    I went through every post you had made with you name and could not find it. 
    Post a link please.


    Seems like you're suffering from the same disorder Bowman has. Multipersonality disorder.
    You're really intent on trying to find out information about me huh?
    Did I step on your toes?
    Because I only do that to Bruce/ToTow/Joe_H (aka Bowman).
    You must have some memory issues, not to know who bowman is, yet you fold for his company!
    He's an atheist self-absorbed anal cavity, who didn't get much love from his mummy or daddy, and probably was bullied in school.
    That's why he takes it out on his forum mates.
    #27
    bill1024
    CLASSIFIED ULTRA Member
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 08:48:16 (permalink)
    ProDigit
    bill1024
    ProDigit
    Bill, remember you're on my blocked list, on suspicion of being Bowman.



     
    I don't know who Bowman is, but thank God for small favors.
     
    In another thread you had said they banned you for having two or more identities.
    I asked you several times to post a link to the thread. You never did. For the life of me I could not find it either
    I went through every post you had made with you name and could not find it. 
    Post a link please.


    Seems like you're suffering from the same disorder Bowman has. Multipersonality disorder.
    You're really intent on trying to find out information about me huh?
    Did I step on your toes?
    Because I only do that to Bruce/ToTow/Joe_H (aka Bowman).
    You must have some memory issues, not to know who bowman is, yet you fold for his company!
    He's an atheist self-absorbed anal cavity, who didn't get much love from his mummy or daddy, and probably was bullied in school.
    That's why he takes it out on his forum mates.


    Dude, you came on this forum and made a statement that they banned you for having more than one account.
    And for trying to help them and they did not want your help.
    So I went over there to see all the drama you had said happened. Well I found your account you use here.
    I could not find any locked thread you had said happened. No locked thread, no drama over you trying to help out.


    You can go ahead and insult me all you want, I am not the one here making up stories about things that did not happen.
    Maybe they were right and you do have multiple accounts but you do not even know it it?
    And you say I have multi personality  disorder?
     
    As far as Bowman, I don't go to the folding forums, I do not keep up with the politics over there.
    I could not care less who runs it or owns it.
    I fold to find a cure, I fold for the bucks and I fold for EVGA. Not necessary in that order.
     
    Now until you post a link to all the drama there that you say involved you locked thread and all,
    I do not believe a word you say. 
    Until you post a link, please put me back on ignore. Please.

     Life is too short to carry a cheap pocket knife

     U25ITA93JV   
     
    #28
    Gunsvnvmc
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    Re: More Core 21 WU... 2020/07/04 10:42:45 (permalink)
    Wow guys lets try to get along I know it can be hard with so many personalities on our very good forum involved.
     
    Bruce did threaten to ban me from the folding forum some years back for the only post I ever made on that forum. A good friend of mine posted something Bruce took exception to and deleted the post then banned him. He took the same attitude with me when my post said sure would have liked to read that post before it was deleted. Indicative of past and present behavior on Braces part I feel like he is unfit as a moderator on any forum.



     
     
    "I will not tip toe through life, only to arrive safely at death."
     
    #29
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