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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 11:36:51 (permalink)
jaredbyoung
I've heard the Earth is flat.
 
 


If the earth was flat cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now.

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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 11:39:29 (permalink)
ty_ger07
They used the cheapest voltage controller, right? What is the argument? Wasn't that the question ultimately? It was YOU who wanted to argue model numbers, failure rates, and causes of failures. I have tried to entertain you, but I am getting bored of it.



You not having an answer and being ignorant is not getting bored. You literally have no engineering knowledge of why this matters and how it has or hasn't affected the 3080 and 3080 Ti series. You were just told by buildzoid that it could have been better but you have no research or proof that it is the cause of any 3080 and 3080 Ti to fail. 
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 12:09:25 (permalink)
KingEngineRevUp
... you have no research or proof that it is the cause of any 3080 and 3080 Ti to fail. 

I have been following this issue since since last November. Every new piece of information only makes the case stronger. The New World problem was not a new problem.

I have no interest in arguing with you on about any of your other nonsense statements.
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 12:16:30 (permalink)
ty_ger07
I have no interest in arguing with you on about any of your other nonsense statements.



Lets get the record straight, you're not interested in backing up what you said. That's it. 
 
You said that buildzoid was proven wrong about the 3080 being fine. You tried to apply the 3090 failures to the 3080s with no evidence. That's where we are. 
 
I asked you a question about your claim and you can't prove it. You're failing to make an argument, there's a difference. 
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ty_ger07
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 12:50:52 (permalink)
KingEngineRevUp
ty_ger07
I have no interest in arguing with you on about any of your other nonsense statements.



Lets get the record straight, you're not interested in backing up what you said. That's it. 
 
You said that buildzoid was proven wrong about the 3080 being fine. You tried to apply the 3090 failures to the 3080s with no evidence. That's where we are. 
 
I asked you a question about your claim and you can't prove it. You're failing to make an argument, there's a difference. 

All I can say is open your eyes. I am not going to waste my time finding and linking 20 threads after sorting through the spam. If you have been here long enough, you know.

Whether or not you agree that at least some of the problems or failures are related, EVGA used cheap components. Fact.
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KingEngineRevUp
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 13:38:03 (permalink)
ty_ger07
KingEngineRevUp
ty_ger07
I have no interest in arguing with you on about any of your other nonsense statements.



Lets get the record straight, you're not interested in backing up what you said. That's it. 
 
You said that buildzoid was proven wrong about the 3080 being fine. You tried to apply the 3090 failures to the 3080s with no evidence. That's where we are. 
 
I asked you a question about your claim and you can't prove it. You're failing to make an argument, there's a difference. 

All I can say is open your eyes. I am not going to waste my time finding and linking 20 threads after sorting through the spam. If you have been here long enough, you know.

Whether or not you agree that at least some of the problems or failures are related, EVGA used cheap components. Fact.


My original response was to that video, for the 3080.

I agree something is up with the old 3090, therea a reason for those changes.

But until there's proof, I haven't seen any issues with the 3080 that have caused a wide spread failure like the 3080 and the 3080 Ti uses a better controller for the VRM. So I will agree to disagree on the 3080 and 3080 Ti unless if some kind of wide spread failure occurs.
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Darkiv
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 15:40:33 (permalink)
Hefbn87
KingEngineRevUp
 
If the cards aren't failing and they're performing, then what else is there to complain about? The aesthetics?




Are you sure your high estimate of the reliability of 3080s is accurate though? I've seen a lot of reports of 3080 FTW3s dying. Back in winter when I was reading those reports, I was hoping my 3080 would be OK. Then it started dying a few days later. Recently I've seen some people on here describe their 3080s die after they worked seemingly without issue for 10 months. The situation does not look good for the entire 30 series.


Yeah my 3080 ftw3 died playing new world...
I never had any problem... ;/
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 16:52:59 (permalink)
KingEngineRevUp

The problem? Buildzoid is smart, but his audience is not as smart as he is so they hear things differently.



This ^^^^ It happens so much these days . 


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Jack-Rabbit
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 17:00:31 (permalink)
kraade
KingEngineRevUp

The problem? Buildzoid is smart, but his audience is not as smart as he is so they hear things differently.



This ^^^^ It happens so much these days . 


It's like common sense. In reality the term common sense is not so common and is more a sarcastic response which people misheard and did not understand that it was sarcasm.


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ty_ger07
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 17:22:01 (permalink)
Jack-Rabbit
kraade
KingEngineRevUp

The problem? Buildzoid is smart, but his audience is not as smart as he is so they hear things differently.



This ^^^^ It happens so much these days . 


It's like common sense. In reality the term common sense is not so common and is more a sarcastic response which people misheard and did not understand that it was sarcasm.


I agree so much.  Listen to how sarcastic he is being!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuimvlNraLM&t=397s
 and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuimvlNraLM&t=911s
 
Some people are really not so smart by thinking that EVGA chose the cheapest VRM options NVIDIA provided to them.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/08/03 19:28:01
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 21:05:53 (permalink)
You cannot win, people defend their brand of choice to the death, very strange.

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#41
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 21:31:18 (permalink)
I would say so, look at the Strix and Suprim models, they use more expensive voltage controllers. EVGAs FTW3 competes with these models but don't even use the same tier of components .
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schulmaster
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/03 22:04:52 (permalink)
EVGA has unparalleled customer service. I'm sure if there were any employee serving as something close to a 'Product Manager', the act of remaining silent on misinformation, on corrective product Revisions/BIOS, or in general appeasement of clientele concerns, would be laughable. EVGA is a small company. Maybe they will grow enough to afford Product Management.

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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 04:56:25 (permalink)
rjohnson11
EVGA uses the best parts for their video cards. 



Any proof of this???
 
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jaredbyoung
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 07:47:57 (permalink)
Hoggle
jaredbyoung
I've heard the Earth is flat.
 
 


If the earth was flat cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now.

That is the most convincing argument I've ever heard about anything ever. Hold on... I had to pick up my mouse that my cat just knocked to the floor. Hold on... Okay now I have my pen back on my desk. Hold on... there went my daily pill organizer. You know what, lkjhbslkjdfhgslkjrhtkjhlk, sorry, my cat just walked across my keyboard. Well I should probably go, my curtains are being used as a scratching pad ATM. 
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 08:25:38 (permalink)
denny88
rjohnson11
EVGA uses the best parts for their video cards. 



Any proof of this???
 


No, just plenty to say otherwise. The comment was ludicrous. 

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#46
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 08:30:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BizSAR 2022/09/07 13:09:18
Does anybody happen to know if they changed the uP9511 out to something else on the rev 1.0 3090's? The 3080 ti has a different regulator (NCP81610 from ON Semi). 
 
I can't find pricing on the up9511 from anywhere I can source IC's from (apparently not available in US markets? I am an EE, so I do know where to look for ICs lol). The NCP81610 at least exists at distributors in the US and EU markets (though none in stock as far as I can tell).
 
There are a couple things to bear in mind here from a general electrical design perspective: as far as Analog vs. Digital parts go, both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you are not building it for users to go in and change things later and you want to 1. reduce potential failure modes, 2. make it more robust, and 3. reduce complexity in manufacturing, usually Analog is the way to go. Digital parts often have more options and controllability (which is what BuildZoid was complaining about as he likes to tweak the settings when doing XOC, which requires physical modifications to parts with an analog circuit), but at the expense of reliability and complexity of the design. Is this always true? no. As I said, it is a generalization. I've designed electronics for airplanes and often they are not allowed digitally controlled components or software-controlled components. The thought behind that being: If you can design the circuit to be analog-only, it will be more robust and last longer, assuming the analog design is a good one. I looked at both of the datasheets for the components above. While neither one seems to overwhelm the other from a performance perspective, the NCP81610 datasheet has more clear definitions of control aspects (like how long will it take to respond to an over/under-voltage event, etc.). It seems uP's site is broken, and their datasheets are only available via 3rd party sites. They also seem a little bit lacking on some information. That said, if the engineers over at EVGA (or whatever company) have done tons of designs with the uP9511, they might have a level of confidence in their ability to set it up for reliable operation. People like to stick with what they know sometimes. Not always the right decision, but it happens. BuidZoid also said in his video rambling about 3090 failures in New World that the designs are all approved by Nvidia. That doesn't make it not EVGA's fault for design flaws, but it tells me that they didn't know (nor did Nvidia) that there'd be an issue when they did it. I haven't even seen confirmation that this is indeed a cause of failure. I'm really hoping EVGA talks about it at some point. They did fix and address the issues that they had with the 1080's (added thermal pads and changed the BIOS to increase fan speeds, and eventually launched their icx cooling system) so I'm hoping for a similar response to this issue. I'd also love to see a breakdown of what's different between the rev 0.1 and 1.0 3090's.
 
So now that I've rambled a little bit more than I planned, I'll try and summarize: I don't think we know the price difference between the uP9511, the MP2888 found on the Kingpin, or the NCP81610 found on the 3080 ti FTW3 (especially when you factor in support components). It has been around for a while, so they may have just stuck with a familiar part they were confident in, but that's just conjecture. I'd be more inclined to bet they went with a design they were more comfortable with than one that was simply "cheaper". It seems they had a reason to go away from it with the 3080 ti having a different controller. That controller is still analog, which is completely fine for everyone not doing XOC, so I just wanted to clarify that "digital" is not always better or more expensive than "analog". I think that theory is just pushed by marketing people who want everything to be "digital" and "IoT" lol.

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#47
Ineedgfx
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 14:30:10 (permalink)
Nike_7688
Does anybody happen to know if they changed the uP9511 out to something else on the rev 1.0 3090's? The 3080 ti has a different regulator (NCP81610 from ON Semi). 
 
I can't find pricing on the up9511 from anywhere I can source IC's from (apparently not available in US markets? I am an EE, so I do know where to look for ICs lol). The NCP81610 at least exists at distributors in the US and EU markets (though none in stock as far as I can tell).
 
There are a couple things to bear in mind here from a general electrical design perspective: as far as Analog vs. Digital parts go, both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you are not building it for users to go in and change things later and you want to 1. reduce potential failure modes, 2. make it more robust, and 3. reduce complexity in manufacturing, usually Analog is the way to go. Digital parts often have more options and controllability (which is what BuildZoid was complaining about as he likes to tweak the settings when doing XOC, which requires physical modifications to parts with an analog circuit), but at the expense of reliability and complexity of the design. Is this always true? no. As I said, it is a generalization. I've designed electronics for airplanes and often they are not allowed digitally controlled components or software-controlled components. The thought behind that being: If you can design the circuit to be analog-only, it will be more robust and last longer, assuming the analog design is a good one. I looked at both of the datasheets for the components above. While neither one seems to overwhelm the other from a performance perspective, the NCP81610 datasheet has more clear definitions of control aspects (like how long will it take to respond to an over/under-voltage event, etc.). It seems uP's site is broken, and their datasheets are only available via 3rd party sites. They also seem a little bit lacking on some information. That said, if the engineers over at EVGA (or whatever company) have done tons of designs with the uP9511, they might have a level of confidence in their ability to set it up for reliable operation. People like to stick with what they know sometimes. Not always the right decision, but it happens. BuidZoid also said in his video rambling about 3090 failures in New World that the designs are all approved by Nvidia. That doesn't make it not EVGA's fault for design flaws, but it tells me that they didn't know (nor did Nvidia) that there'd be an issue when they did it. I haven't even seen confirmation that this is indeed a cause of failure. I'm really hoping EVGA talks about it at some point. They did fix and address the issues that they had with the 1080's (added thermal pads and changed the BIOS to increase fan speeds, and eventually launched their icx cooling system) so I'm hoping for a similar response to this issue. I'd also love to see a breakdown of what's different between the rev 0.1 and 1.0 3090's.
 
So now that I've rambled a little bit more than I planned, I'll try and summarize: I don't think we know the price difference between the uP9511, the MP2888 found on the Kingpin, or the NCP81610 found on the 3080 ti FTW3 (especially when you factor in support components). It has been around for a while, so they may have just stuck with a familiar part they were confident in, but that's just conjecture. I'd be more inclined to bet they went with a design they were more comfortable with than one that was simply "cheaper". It seems they had a reason to go away from it with the 3080 ti having a different controller. That controller is still analog, which is completely fine for everyone not doing XOC, so I just wanted to clarify that "digital" is not always better or more expensive than "analog". I think that theory is just pushed by marketing people who want everything to be "digital" and "IoT" lol.


Great post and brings much needed science to this thread

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#48
psychonautical
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 14:57:52 (permalink)
farmer_ta
I would say so, look at the Strix and Suprim models, they use more expensive voltage controllers. EVGAs FTW3 competes with these models but don't even use the same tier of components .


yeah but those models cost hundreds more even at msrp.  so id say its cool the evga card can match performance and undercut price
#49
ty_ger07
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 17:33:21 (permalink)
Nike_7688
If you can design the circuit to be analog-only, it will be more robust and last longer, assuming the analog design is a good one.

Unfortunately, if you look at the evidence, it doesn't seem like the analog design was a good one.  There have been countless complaints with a wide range of models during the previous 9 months about the lack of effective power balancing.  That's not great, but the thing that really hints at the problem is how two otherwise supposedly identical cards can perform so differently.  One card can perform great, while another one performs terrible.  People have tried all manner of things from firmware, to software, to hardware, to eliminate potential causes, but it always comes down to the card itself.  Some people have even RMA'ed the cards and changed nothing else, and noticed wildly different performance results (where one was heavily power limited while the other wasn't).
 
So, that is why I personally think that it is something to fault EVGA (or NVIDIA) over.  Is it a problem with NVIDIA's reference design?  Or did EVGA use cheaper discreet components with worse tolerances which just exacerbated the issue?  I don't know.  All of the evidence for the past 9 months indicates that the supporting components of those analog circuits can cause wildly different results for the end user.  ...Results which are completely and totally out of the hands of the user, and often appear to be unsolvable other than choosing to use a BIOS which exceeds PCI-E or ATX specs in order to allow an out-of-balance input to go above design specs in order to allow the other inputs to "breath" a bit.  At least with a digital voltage controller, the tolerances of supporting components wouldn't be so important and EVGA could more easily provide modifications to fix this sort of issues rather than having to create a special RMA process (like EVGA had to do with the 3090).
 
Then, if you look at the theoretical effects of over current protection, the symptoms it would exhibit, and look at the evidence that a power balance problem exists, it all lines up with the evidence of chronic black screen issues finally resulting in a card with a blown fuse which needs to be RMA'ed.  That's why I personally think that this is a valid criticism.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/08/04 17:45:43
#50
badboy64
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 18:49:40 (permalink)
Well at least my eVga 3090 FTW3 Ultra is still working even after 9 months. Must be lucky to have a fully working card this long.

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#51
B0baganoosh
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 19:24:25 (permalink)
I don't think the digital controllers work like you think they do. If improperly designed, they would still require RMAs to fix. The i2c lines are generally not exposed and would require a user to solder in a connector (see strix and Galax boards) and have a programming device capable of communicating with the controllers via i2c. Most people can't or won't do that, so they'd still have to RMA.

Also, I was not saying "they didn't have a bad design". I don't know enough specifics about the causes to the various issues you've described (that I've also seen people talk about) to say definitively one way or another. I would be absolutely thrilled to see a schematic and the full board layout files to go over it though (pleeeeeaaaase evga?).

I was just explaining that analog does not equal "cheaper" or "worse" automatically. Quite often it is the opposite, but more than anything it is just different. There are usually good reasons to pick one or the other. You'll notice that in the part of my post you quoted I said "assuming the analog design is a good one". If it is a good design, I'd take the analog one over the digital one every time. I design analog circuits though, and I know how reliable they can be compared to their "digital" counterparts. I can't say that the original design on the 3090's was a good one, but I also can't say that it was bad. My 3080 ti has a different one, but it is still analog. I have absolutely zero reason to wish it had a digital voltage controller in there. I'm not going to hook up an i2c interface and reprogram it for any reason. Why would I want that?

You keep saying it's cheaper without providing any evidence of that. I'm suggesting that there can be expensive design mistakes and I'm betting whatever the issue is happened for other reasons that "those parts are more expensive". There's no way that decision would be made intentionally on a card that costs as much as a 3090. They'd gladly spend the extra $3 per card and not have to replace hundreds of full cards at their expense later on. Rushed design? Maybe. Mistake or lack of proper review? Maybe. "this chip costs $1-5 less"? When there are only 1-2/card... No way. Not worth it. And yes, in volume, we're talking about ~$1-3 chips here. As far as I've been able to find prices (US distributors) , the chip in the 3080 ti (analog) is more expensive or at least the same price as the one in the strix, Galax, and kingpin cards (digital). That does not include support circuitry as I don't have a schematic. I would bet the analog does save a little time and money on programming during manufacturing though, but again, not enough to knowingly make a decision to accept tens to hundreds of 3090 failures.

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#52
ty_ger07
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/04 21:03:15 (permalink)
Nike_7688
The i2c lines are generally not exposed and would require a user to solder in a connector (see strix and Galax boards) and have a programming device capable of communicating with the controllers via i2c.

Interesting. You don't think that EVGA would make it accessible via EVGA's iCX microcontroller? I am not suggesting that EVGA would purposely make it accessible to users.  I am suggesting that if it were digital, EVGA may have had easier ways of correcting discovered issues instead of needing to resort to RMAs or board revisions like EVGA ultimately had to with its 3090s.
 
I have no way of knowing.  I am only suggesting that it might have been easier for EVGA to have fixed the problem without resorting to RMAs, if it had options to adjust a digital voltage controller versus being stuck with its un-adjustable analog voltage controller choice.  But who knows; that isn't the reality we live in.  Really, it is of no consequence.  The thing of consequence is everything else (mentioned before and mentioned again below).
 
You keep saying it's cheaper without providing any evidence of that.

I don't have any evidence either.  But, I was told that it was cheaper.  And based on second-hand market, it appears that the up9511 is cheaper than the up9512, but who knows.  Things really depend on the supply chain and order size.
 
There is a thing which I have said many times which you are overlocking.  I mentioned the possibility of using inexpensive discreet components (in this thread and in many other threads).  You know what I mean, right?  I assume that you must.  In case you don't for whatever reason, I am referring to the other components.  The resistors, capacitors, current shunt resistors, etcetera, used throughout the full analog circuit, not just the analog voltage controller itself.  If EVGA chose the cheapest analog voltage controller (as it appears that they did), what about the other components?  As you certainly know, discreet components come in standard tolerance ranges (and are priced accordingly).  As we have seen (with an overwhelming amount of evidence), there are some of these EVGA cards which behave badly and others which behave well.  How else can you explain that behavior (with all other things being equal) other than differences in component values related to where the associated discreet components fall within their rated tolerance?  It seems obvious to me that an analog solution is much more reliant on its associated discreet components compared to a digital solution.  Perhaps NVIDIA provided reference options (they did!), EVGA chose the cheapest (seems plausible, but unproven), and then EVGA additionally chose the cheapest discreet components (which NVIDIA didn't expect when making design recommendations), and that is why the EVGA cards seem to have the most problems with black screens and blowing up compared to similar reference-design boards.
 
There certainly must be some reason why EVGA cards had a very high failure rate initially (especially the 3090s), EVGA had to RMA a bunch, EVGA created a special RMA process for 3090s, EVGA has released firmware updates to fix performance problems related to power balance, different cards have performed wildly different in relation to power (and thus performance) limits, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.  There must be a reason, right?  Can you think of a better explanation comparing these specific problems with EVGA cards compared to FE cards or other AIB cards?  Is there another reason why EVGA retired the UP9511 and switched to the NCP81610 when it released 3090 1.0 revision to solve all of its problems?
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/08/05 06:24:33
#53
B0baganoosh
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/05 07:23:06 (permalink)
ty_ger07
Interesting. You don't think that EVGA would make it accessible via EVGA's iCX microcontroller? I am not suggesting that EVGA would purposely make it accessible to users.  I am suggesting that if it were digital, EVGA may have had easier ways of correcting discovered issues instead of needing to resort to RMAs or board revisions like EVGA ultimately had to with its 3090s.

 
I'm not sure. They'd have to put the controllers on the same i2c bus as other devices. I feel like that adds unnecessary risk for most users, as it would be much easier for people to write "hacks" (or DIY tools) to directly communicate with and change settings on the VRMs. That could be...very bad. XOC folks do that and know that they could be damaging parts immediately and voiding warranties. You generally don't want these controllers to change settings regularly, you want to set them once and have them stable. So I don't think they'd want to leave that door open. That's why if you look at the Buildzoid Strix 3080 video, you can see they used the MP2888 digital controller in three places. They also have three unpopulated connector-header through-hole places where you could solder in (or in some cases push in a spring-retention connector, but you have to be careful as if it isn't secure and you try to hot-swap i2c, you just blew up your chip potentially) a header connector for reprogramming. That would be the standard practice for that sort of thing. In the factory, they probably have "bed-of-nails" test fixtures that check things out and high-quality pogo pins that make the temporary connections to program these. I certainly wouldn't want to leave your average user access to that as it would be an easy way to brick cards. Also, they have to consider that hackers may want to target them and could easily brick cards in that manner too. Maybe I'm over-thinking it (this happens, I've just been conjecturing and speaking hypothetically for most of this discussion as we don't have enough data/details), but it sounds like a terrible idea to me.
 
ty_ger07
You keep saying it's cheaper without providing any evidence of that.

I don't have any evidence either.  But, I can speculate.  Based on second-hand market, it appears that the up9511 is cheaper than the up9512, but who knows.  Things really depend on the supply chain and order size.

That's really not going to work to figure this out. We'd need distribution prices. There are many factors that impact second-hand market (availability, time on the market, vendor relations, etc.) I'm not going to make an argument one way or another based on what alibaba has that "fell of a truck" (for lack of a better joke).
 
ty_ger07
There is a thing which I have said many times which you are overlocking.  I mentioned the possibility of using inexpensive discreet components (in this thread and in many other threads).  You know what I mean, right?  [snip]  Perhaps NVIDIA provided reference options (they did!), EVGA chose the cheapest (seems plausible, but unproven), and then EVGA additionally chose the cheapest discreet components (which NVIDIA didn't expect when making design recommendations), and that is why the EVGA cards seem to have the most problems with black screens and blowing up compared to similar reference-design boards.

 
I do know what you're talking about and I didn't overlook it, but decided to (maybe in error) focus on what seemed to be the point you were driving, which was that analog = cheap and digital = expensive = better. I just wanted you to know that isn't true as a blanket statement...at all. It can be, but we don't actually know in this case. As for the discreet components, Some of the issues have been farther off than even tolerance deviations should allow. As I've mentioned a couple times, if the designers actually did their job right, tolerances would be specified in a way that no stack-up of tolerances all in one direction or another could cause problems. If I were to make bets, which is all we can really do here (or I could just say "perhaps" and spout off any theory whatsoever considering there's been no details released), I would bet they were given the performance specifications and requirements of the GPU chip(s). They designed around that and on paper everything looked great. Between board layouts and GPU performance characteristics, perhaps they missed the target somewhere along the way. Maybe it was a fringe condition where most of the time, and in all their tests, everything worked well within the limits and they thought it was great. Then some other apps came along and tested it a different way, made it perform an entirely different way and suddenly there are spikes or overloads they're not responding to appropriately (or at all) causing this issue.
 
Relevant story: I worked on revising an old circuit design for an HID bulb inverter once that should have worked fine on paper, but differences in the bulbs and a slight difference in the layer thicknesses of the PCB (not the copper, but the pre-preg thicknesses) caused the gate capacitance of the drive-FET to increase to levels where every now and then it just blew itself up because that caused too much inrush current. There were minimal issues for years, but then the board vendor had more of one size core/pre-preg than another one batch and suddenly half the inverters are blowing. This story is only here to show that sometimes unforeseen performance variations can cause major problems (also, I can promise you, no cheap components were used in that design, it was for aerospace).
 
They clearly found something wrong with the 0.1 rev 3090's (or maybe it was a couple problems? three? twelve? I don't know). I see you responded in your note that they removed the up9511 controller. Has anyone confirmed that? I just haven't seen any pictures to confirm it. If anybody does a hybrid or water-block conversion on a 1.0 board, it should be easy to get a picture and check.
 
ty_ger07
There certainly must be some reason why EVGA cards had a very high failure rate initially (especially the 3090s), EVGA had to RMA a bunch, EVGA created a special RMA process for 3090s, EVGA has released firmware updates to fix performance problems related to power balance, different cards have performed wildly different in relation to power (and thus performance) limits, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.  There must be a reason, right?



I agree there's at least one reason. There might be several. I just haven't seen any evidence yet that it has anything to do with the cost of components. The first revision of parts were absolutely rushed out because the AIB's didn't get much time with GPUs in hand at all before launch (thanks Nvidia). This was evident with the ceramic/POScap issue and all the early firmware/vBIOS updates that had to happen across all vendors. I think they had to take some guesses on performance characteristics and some did better than others. Just to be clear, this is in no way making excuses for anybody. I'd rather something launch late and without issues than "on time" and be an RMA nightmare. Either way, the blame lies with Nvidia and EVGA for EVGA's part failures. It may be possible that the designs were picked over more complex ones due to cost (I think more of a programming-time cost than parts cost to be clear), but I don't think they would have done that intentionally if they knew there'd be issues later. The most likely cause for this from my perspective an experience would be rushing the design to meet deadlines. With the UP9511 being out since the 1080 days, they would have been very familiar with it and likely very confident in it's abilities based on the specifications Nvidia gave them. One thing that surprised the public with the 3000-series launch was how much more power and how much larger the current spikes were on this gen than any before it. Maybe that surprised the board-designers too. Maybe they weren't given adequate time to actually go through the massive variety of workloads these cards see. All we have are "maybe" and "perhaps" for now. I am not infallible and as such, I could be wrong, but I'm not buying that "perhaps they just bought the cheapest resistors and capacitors in the world and the tolerances were crap so a bunch of cards failed" theory (<this is paraphrasing, not meant to be an actual quote).
 
Edit: side-story needed context.
post edited by Nike_7688 - 2021/08/05 07:27:50

6Q6CPFHPBPCU691 is a discount code anyone can use.
 
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#54
wmmills
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2021/08/05 09:03:19 (permalink)
Nike_7688
ty_ger07
Interesting. You don't think that EVGA would make it accessible via EVGA's iCX microcontroller? I am not suggesting that EVGA would purposely make it accessible to users.  I am suggesting that if it were digital, EVGA may have had easier ways of correcting discovered issues instead of needing to resort to RMAs or board revisions like EVGA ultimately had to with its 3090s.

 
I'm not sure. They'd have to put the controllers on the same i2c bus as other devices. I feel like that adds unnecessary risk for most users, as it would be much easier for people to write "hacks" (or DIY tools) to directly communicate with and change settings on the VRMs. That could be...very bad. XOC folks do that and know that they could be damaging parts immediately and voiding warranties. You generally don't want these controllers to change settings regularly, you want to set them once and have them stable. So I don't think they'd want to leave that door open. That's why if you look at the Buildzoid Strix 3080 video, you can see they used the MP2888 digital controller in three places. They also have three unpopulated connector-header through-hole places where you could solder in (or in some cases push in a spring-retention connector, but you have to be careful as if it isn't secure and you try to hot-swap i2c, you just blew up your chip potentially) a header connector for reprogramming. That would be the standard practice for that sort of thing. In the factory, they probably have "bed-of-nails" test fixtures that check things out and high-quality pogo pins that make the temporary connections to program these. I certainly wouldn't want to leave your average user access to that as it would be an easy way to brick cards. Also, they have to consider that hackers may want to target them and could easily brick cards in that manner too. Maybe I'm over-thinking it (this happens, I've just been conjecturing and speaking hypothetically for most of this discussion as we don't have enough data/details), but it sounds like a terrible idea to me.
 
ty_ger07
You keep saying it's cheaper without providing any evidence of that.

I don't have any evidence either.  But, I can speculate.  Based on second-hand market, it appears that the up9511 is cheaper than the up9512, but who knows.  Things really depend on the supply chain and order size.

That's really not going to work to figure this out. We'd need distribution prices. There are many factors that impact second-hand market (availability, time on the market, vendor relations, etc.) I'm not going to make an argument one way or another based on what alibaba has that "fell of a truck" (for lack of a better joke).
 
ty_ger07
There is a thing which I have said many times which you are overlocking.  I mentioned the possibility of using inexpensive discreet components (in this thread and in many other threads).  You know what I mean, right?  [snip]  Perhaps NVIDIA provided reference options (they did!), EVGA chose the cheapest (seems plausible, but unproven), and then EVGA additionally chose the cheapest discreet components (which NVIDIA didn't expect when making design recommendations), and that is why the EVGA cards seem to have the most problems with black screens and blowing up compared to similar reference-design boards.

 
I do know what you're talking about and I didn't overlook it, but decided to (maybe in error) focus on what seemed to be the point you were driving, which was that analog = cheap and digital = expensive = better. I just wanted you to know that isn't true as a blanket statement...at all. It can be, but we don't actually know in this case. As for the discreet components, Some of the issues have been farther off than even tolerance deviations should allow. As I've mentioned a couple times, if the designers actually did their job right, tolerances would be specified in a way that no stack-up of tolerances all in one direction or another could cause problems. If I were to make bets, which is all we can really do here (or I could just say "perhaps" and spout off any theory whatsoever considering there's been no details released), I would bet they were given the performance specifications and requirements of the GPU chip(s). They designed around that and on paper everything looked great. Between board layouts and GPU performance characteristics, perhaps they missed the target somewhere along the way. Maybe it was a fringe condition where most of the time, and in all their tests, everything worked well within the limits and they thought it was great. Then some other apps came along and tested it a different way, made it perform an entirely different way and suddenly there are spikes or overloads they're not responding to appropriately (or at all) causing this issue.
 
Relevant story: I worked on revising an old circuit design for an HID bulb inverter once that should have worked fine on paper, but differences in the bulbs and a slight difference in the layer thicknesses of the PCB (not the copper, but the pre-preg thicknesses) caused the gate capacitance of the drive-FET to increase to levels where every now and then it just blew itself up because that caused too much inrush current. There were minimal issues for years, but then the board vendor had more of one size core/pre-preg than another one batch and suddenly half the inverters are blowing. This story is only here to show that sometimes unforeseen performance variations can cause major problems (also, I can promise you, no cheap components were used in that design, it was for aerospace).
 
They clearly found something wrong with the 0.1 rev 3090's (or maybe it was a couple problems? three? twelve? I don't know). I see you responded in your note that they removed the up9511 controller. Has anyone confirmed that? I just haven't seen any pictures to confirm it. If anybody does a hybrid or water-block conversion on a 1.0 board, it should be easy to get a picture and check.
 
ty_ger07
There certainly must be some reason why EVGA cards had a very high failure rate initially (especially the 3090s), EVGA had to RMA a bunch, EVGA created a special RMA process for 3090s, EVGA has released firmware updates to fix performance problems related to power balance, different cards have performed wildly different in relation to power (and thus performance) limits, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.  There must be a reason, right?



I agree there's at least one reason. There might be several. I just haven't seen any evidence yet that it has anything to do with the cost of components. The first revision of parts were absolutely rushed out because the AIB's didn't get much time with GPUs in hand at all before launch (thanks Nvidia). This was evident with the ceramic/POScap issue and all the early firmware/vBIOS updates that had to happen across all vendors. I think they had to take some guesses on performance characteristics and some did better than others. Just to be clear, this is in no way making excuses for anybody. I'd rather something launch late and without issues than "on time" and be an RMA nightmare. Either way, the blame lies with Nvidia and EVGA for EVGA's part failures. It may be possible that the designs were picked over more complex ones due to cost (I think more of a programming-time cost than parts cost to be clear), but I don't think they would have done that intentionally if they knew there'd be issues later. The most likely cause for this from my perspective an experience would be rushing the design to meet deadlines. With the UP9511 being out since the 1080 days, they would have been very familiar with it and likely very confident in it's abilities based on the specifications Nvidia gave them. One thing that surprised the public with the 3000-series launch was how much more power and how much larger the current spikes were on this gen than any before it. Maybe that surprised the board-designers too. Maybe they weren't given adequate time to actually go through the massive variety of workloads these cards see. All we have are "maybe" and "perhaps" for now. I am not infallible and as such, I could be wrong, but I'm not buying that "perhaps they just bought the cheapest resistors and capacitors in the world and the tolerances were crap so a bunch of cards failed" theory (<this is paraphrasing, not meant to be an actual quote).
 
Edit: side-story needed context.


I have the Hybrid kit to put on my 3090 still, its sitting on the table waiting, and my card is supposed to be the new revision so ill let you guys know what i find, up9511, when i do it. Im going to do some cooling mods on it also that i want to try too so its going to be a bit of a longer process than normal for me.

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#55
mikeyrogers75
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaped out on parts… 2021/08/05 09:05:37 (permalink)
I've heard the same thing
#56
HarryBeearman
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaped out on parts… 2021/08/05 18:27:01 (permalink)
My 3080 ftw hybrid appears to be doa. Or my evga psu or maybe ftw mobo. All in all, the amount of complaints im seeing isn't helping my state of mind right now. I really don't want to have to half the things I'm reading are suggested fixes. My last system was cheaper asus parts, no issues with the build. This one is much more expensive and I have several issues I cant explain.

Edit: RMA approval in just a few minutes. Im guessing its faster and cheaper to just swap cards than try to troubleshoot.
post edited by HarryBeearman - 2021/08/05 19:59:23
#57
liud21
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaped out on parts… 2021/08/05 19:14:46 (permalink)
Yes, cheaper parts = higher failure rate. if we can magically put the 3090 BIOS into a 3080, we will see lots of dead 3080s. Or very few dead 3090s if we can do the same with the 3090 with a 3080 BIOS... 
#58
squall-leonhart
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaped out on parts… 2022/08/15 19:31:32 (permalink)
Mscott0566
Is it true that EVGA used cheaper parts to get the minimum requirements met for the 30 series cards? I still love EVGA but I seriously hope not…



there was a component switch between the Rev 00 and 01 3090's that introduced a reliability concern, this has been rectified with Rev 1s, along with achieving PCIE compliance on the slot draw.
 
B0baganoosh
Does anybody happen to know if they changed the uP9511 out to something else on the rev 1.0 3090's? The 3080 ti has a different regulator (NCP81610 from ON Semi).



EVGA switched from the UP9511 and AOZ power stages to an Onsemi NCP81610 and Onsemi power stages for the 3090 v1.0's
post edited by squall-leonhart - 2022/08/15 19:33:52

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#59
Hoggle
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Re: I’ve heard that EVGA cheaper out on parts… 2022/08/15 23:56:57 (permalink)
denny88
rjohnson11
EVGA uses the best parts for their video cards. 



Any proof of this???
 




Brand loyalty is earned by having good products. If someone wanted computer parts EVGA is a brand I would have no problem recommending to friends or family because I have faith in the products. I know I am a moderator so people can take what I say with a grain of salt but honestly help out a brand if I thought that they made garbage products.

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