Hoggle
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/30 20:30:38
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pdX5M It'll definitely help mitigate the issue. The biggest thing I've noticed in some older games is that they don't allow you to limit the fps when in menus and that is when you can see some pretty big power spikes. I have the Halo MCC downloaded but haven't tried it yet on my 3080Ti.
Because of the lack of frame rate limits in older games it’s good to set a limit for the refresh of your monitor. Or at least around that point if you have a Gsync or Freesync monitor. No point in having the GPU work hard to create frames you are not seeing.
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donta1979
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/30 21:43:04
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ty_ger07
donta1979 The only ones who I have seen losing cards their older psu's have gone pop and taking the cards with them most of the time.
I think that statement should be backed with some evidence.
Ok how about Russianhaxor you know one of the most influential people in VR, writes for Forbes, works for Moore's Insights consulting firm in the tech industry and used to work for EVGA. Him and a few people he knew all in a week's time their old psu's ranging from 2-3 years old made before the 30 series all friend and or cooked their GPU's his was a seasonic, then being on the CPPC discord everyone with older psu's designed before the 30 series cards somehow they blow and sometimes eat their cards. See it all the time. Would you like for me to get you their name and address's so you can contact them personally? Like really dude smh and if you really want some proof take the time to find the post about Jacob talking about the old EVGA PSU's that were still on the market that would blow and maybe even eat a 30 series card, they did free exchange RMA's for that were produced before the 30 series cards for those psu owners that purchased those PSU's that somehow stayed on the market and didn't get sent in from an etailer. You are barking up the wrong tree my man see it happen on many a pc builder/built to order, to pc builders, to pc help discords. You want proof then go do the research and spend the time finding out.
post edited by donta1979 - 2022/01/30 21:52:03
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lol133736
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 01:58:59
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 05:12:12
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donta1979
ty_ger07
donta1979 The only ones who I have seen losing cards their older psu's have gone pop and taking the cards with them most of the time.
I think that statement should be backed with some evidence.
Ok how about Russianhaxor you know one of the most influential people in VR, writes for Forbes, works for Moore's Insights consulting firm in the tech industry and used to work for EVGA. Him and a few people he knew all in a week's time their old psu's ranging from 2-3 years old made before the 30 series all friend and or cooked their GPU's his was a seasonic, then being on the CPPC discord everyone with older psu's designed before the 30 series cards somehow they blow and sometimes eat their cards. See it all the time. Interesting. I haven't seen a red light report here on the forum about someone's PSU blowing up and needing to replace both the PSU and the video card. Old PSUs die or have new symptoms all the time; especially when subject to new higher loads. This higher-end 30xx series can have huge power spikes for the reason I stated. I am not saying that PSUs don't fail. I am also not saying that failing PSUs can't damage other hardware. I am just saying, for all the red light of death reports here on the forum, I have not seen one that can be blamed on the PSU beyond a shadow of a doubt; and not with a PSU that anyone should suspect is inferior in some way. Many failures, on the other hand, have proven to be NOT the PSU at fault after replacing the PSU and the video card and having the replacement video card also fail. To the point that after multiple RMAs, EVGA has even given out full refunds because they had nothing else to blame. Even, one person switched to another brand's GPU, without replacing anything additionally, and never again had an issue. It's especially telling when you consider that there are certain models of video cards which fail seemingly regularly, and other models which seem to not have one single similar failure reported. Why do you suppose that is? Let's also acknowledge that what you are saying is that these cards can bring even super-respected PSUs which are only a couple years old to their knees. While all I saw was OCP tripping reports, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that some PSUs fried as well. Either way you look at it, it kind of corroborates the observation that these cards can draw abnormally high power spikes. Do you not think that is a concern? Do you not acknowledge that one of those power spikes could eventually cause the card to fail; as has been reported over and over? What do you gain by blaming the user? Perhaps you want to view the dozens of threads and blame each person individually. I would enjoy that, because I think you would quickly discover that there is nothing that you can blame them for. If you really want some proof take the time to find the post about Jacob talking about the old EVGA PSU's that were still on the market that would blow and maybe even eat a 30 series card, they did free exchange RMA's for that were produced before the 30 series cards for those psu owners that purchased those PSU's that somehow stayed on the market and didn't get sent in from an etailer. I have seen you write that before, but I don't think your full statement is true. At least I haven't seen a report of it. What I saw reported was that the PSUs were tripping OCP earlier than they should and causing annoying power resets. Usually, the PSU wasn't dead, but instead just needed to be power-cycled. They were being replaced to stop that annoying behavior. Never once did I read about a GPU being killed at the same time. The "and maybe eat a 30 series card" is the part I think requires evidence. Your stance is that the cards have no fault and people are killing them because of their PSU purchasing choices. And your evidence is "maybe". ??
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/02/01 14:46:22
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transdogmifier
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 05:50:06
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Michapolys
ty_ger07 That's how the stuff I mentioned was discovered by those respected people. I'm just stating what was discovered through research; it's not something I came up with. What was your proposal again? The PSU craps out, the voltage drops to nearly zero, the card somehow draws a power spike from the zero power the PSU is producing, somehow that causes it to kill itself, and the CPU and memory and everything else hooked up to the PSU continues to operate just fine throughout that whole event and you can even hear the video game sounds continue to play. Ok, makes sense. It's a fine theory. Most of it makes sense. But why invent a new theory? There are all kinds of strange theories we could make up. Is it that important to try to make something other than the GPU the culprit? What is the motivation? Where is the evidence? And, for fun, can you please provide an example of an ATX power supply operating at a 100hz switching frequency?
OK this is it. People like you make me thankful that the ignore list exists.
I, myself, have my disagreements with ty_ger, but he's got good commentary on many things....imo, you'd be better off shrugging your shoulders and agreeing to disagree. Definitely, again, imo, not worthy of an ignore. In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 05:58:36
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transdogmifier In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
I would never defend a walmart grade PSU. If anyone has one of these cards with a walmart grade PSU, they are asking for problems. I'm just saying that I have read about a lot of deaths on this forum, and not one had a walmart grade PSU. Even to the point that EVGA has given full refunds after multiple video card RMAs because they had nothing else to blame.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/01/31 12:08:38
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 13:14:04
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transdogmifier I, myself, have my disagreements with ty_ger, but he's got good commentary on many things....imo, you'd be better off shrugging your shoulders and agreeing to disagree. Definitely, again, imo, not worthy of an ignore. In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
After decades of experience with forum zealots, it became obvious that putting such people on the ignore list is the most effective approach.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 14:40:16
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Michapolys
transdogmifier I, myself, have my disagreements with ty_ger, but he's got good commentary on many things....imo, you'd be better off shrugging your shoulders and agreeing to disagree. Definitely, again, imo, not worthy of an ignore. In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
After decades of experience with forum zealots, it became obvious that putting such people on the ignore list is the most effective approach.
Really doesn't help your theory if you have no confidence in providing any testing information in either this thread or the other thread (where your response was just "no", three different times).
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farmer_ta
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 15:32:15
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Hefbn87
farmer_ta My FTW3 3090 died from Halo MCC Dec 2020 and I had it paired with a Corsair AX1000 PSU. People that reported failures had there cards paired with high end PSUs. I've been lurking around these forums since Dec 2020 and I've seen many theories ranging from "bad" PSU choices to the orientation of how people mount there GPUs (horizontally/vertically). It gets pretty ridiculous I tell you. The GPU controls its own power, that is a fact. The problem is not with PSUs but the GPU itself ! If only a handful a PSUs work for 3090s then EVGA and Nvidia MUST state it on the requirements, but they cant because its not the problem.
Did MCC work with your RMA card?
I didn't RMA the EVGA card, ended up going back to my retailer and they gave me an Aorus card instead. I played some MCC with the Aorus card and still use it to this day.
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mahanddeem
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 16:02:06
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pdX5M It'll definitely help mitigate the issue. The biggest thing I've noticed in some older games is that they don't allow you to limit the fps when in menus and that is when you can see some pretty big power spikes. I have the Halo MCC downloaded but haven't tried it yet on my 3080Ti.
You have a combo very close to mine, minus I have 16GBs of RAM 3600MHz What is your stock Firestrike Timespy score please? do you undervolt your 3080Ti (I have the FTW3 and usually hoovers ~1995MHz on 0.950v) Thanks
CPU: 10900KF, RAM: Corsair DDR4 3600MHz 16GB RAM, GPU: EVGA 3080Ti FTW3 Ultra, PSU: Corsair RM850x, Monitor: Asus PG279Q 1440p GSync, SSD: Samsung EVO 960 nvme
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 16:38:15
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ty_ger07 Really doesn't help your theory if you have no confidence in providing any testing information in either this thread or the other thread (where your response was just "no", three different times).
Except I did provide information. You can measure the switching frequency of the FETs on a PSU with an oscilloscope. I told you that. You can lookup what a decoupling capacitor does by looking at associated documentation, (or even wikipedia). You can also learn how modern topologies of switching mode power supplies work using the same approach, including the most commonly used nowadays for ATX PSUs, which is LLC resonant. If you want details on the working of various things related to the problems with modern GPUs you can use a search engine. All I did was provide ways to mitigate the issue, if someone from the engineering department of EVGA happens to have a look around here, although I doubt. So do me a favour and quit bugging me just because you do not agree or something.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 18:57:50
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Michapolys You can measure the switching frequency of the FETs on a PSU with an oscilloscope. I told you that.
You can lookup what a decoupling capacitor does by looking at associated documentation, (or even wikipedia).
You can also learn how modern topologies of switching mode power supplies work using the same approach, including the most commonly used nowadays for ATX PSUs, which is LLC resonant.
If you want details on the working of various things related to the problems with modern GPUs you can use a search engine.
I am well aware of all of that. Side note: do you have an example of an ATX switch-mode power supply operating at a 100hz switching frequency? All I did was provide ways to mitigate the issue... But what is the evidence that it is the cause of the issue in the first place?
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 19:01:29
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ty_ger07 I am well aware of all of that.
Side note: do you have an example of an ATX switch-mode power supply operating at a 100hz switching frequency?
This is exactly what I am referring to. On one sentence you state that you are aware of what is being stated, and on the very next sentence you prove that you are not by the nature of the question you make.
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jaredbyoung
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/01/31 21:43:50
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If there is a special PSU requirement for 3090s or any other 30 series card it should be provided by the manufacturer. If a user is following the manufacturer's recommendation for PSU to run the video card and the card fails then that's a bad video card. There's no two ways on that issue. That's a failure of the video card. Graphics cards can be built in such a way that no PSU properly wired and connected to them can't cause them to die. If a vulnerability to bad PSUs was discovered the solution is on the shoulders of the graphics card manufacturer to protect their product better and/or update their info to tell their customers what PSUs to avoid. This nose in the air "You used a POS PSU so neener neener, you suck" thing is beyond old and completely disproven at this point.
post edited by jaredbyoung - 2022/02/08 10:04:33
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/01 03:56:30
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Michapolys
ty_ger07 I am well aware of all of that.
Side note: do you have an example of an ATX switch-mode power supply operating at a 100hz switching frequency?
This is exactly what I am referring to. On one sentence you state that you are aware of what is being stated, and on the very next sentence you prove that you are not by the nature of the question you make.
I have never heard of a switching frequency down in the audio spectrum. High frequency switching is used for efficiency sake; also for the sake of not hearing a super annoying hum; also for the sake of using smaller inductors and a smaller transformer. A LLC tank circuit is used to improve efficiency of high frequency switching. You wouldn't use a 100 hz switching frequency, and you wouldn't use a LLC tank circuit with a 100 hz switching frequency. At least not that I have ever seen. So.... pics? Perhaps you omitted a k? 100kHz is maybe what you meant to write a few weeks ago? But 100kHz would no longer fit your theory. And like really, why? Why do we need this theory? How does evidence support this theory? What is wrong with the research of others and the explanation they provide? Why does the NVIDIA Founders edition not have this problem? Why does the Kingpin edition not have this problem? Why does this problem only affect certain video cards primarily? Why does this problem only affect video cards which have a reference design which are pushed to their VRM's power output limits? How come you think video cards need bulk capacitors at their input, but the Kingpin and Founders card and motherboard don't, and they work just fine? Why does the rest of the computer not have this problem? If the PSU has one 12v rail, how does this theory allow the video card voltage to droop to nearly zero, but the CPU, motherboard and everything else doesn't hiccup? Is it so important to find something to blame other than the video card?
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/02/01 04:20:09
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Intoxicus
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 08:17:05
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ty_ger07
Michapolys
transdogmifier I, myself, have my disagreements with ty_ger, but he's got good commentary on many things....imo, you'd be better off shrugging your shoulders and agreeing to disagree. Definitely, again, imo, not worthy of an ignore. In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
After decades of experience with forum zealots, it became obvious that putting such people on the ignore list is the most effective approach.
Really doesn't help your theory if you have no confidence in providing any testing information in either this thread or the other thread (where your response was just "no", three different times).
Where did you get your degree in electrical engineering out of curiosity?
"Humans are not rational animals, humans are rationalizing animals." -Robert A Heinlein
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 09:06:00
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Intoxicus Where did you get your degree in electrical engineering out of curiosity?
Does not have one. It shows. On the other hand, the degree only sometimes matches the expertise.
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rjohnson11
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 09:35:17
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We've had some complaints about this thread. I ask that everyone please respect each other's opinions even if you don't agree with them.
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 09:54:45
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rjohnson11 We've had some complaints about this thread. I ask that everyone please respect each other's opinions even if you don't agree with them.
Fine by me. Care to share what was the complaint?
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 10:04:24
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Intoxicus
ty_ger07
Michapolys
transdogmifier I, myself, have my disagreements with ty_ger, but he's got good commentary on many things....imo, you'd be better off shrugging your shoulders and agreeing to disagree. Definitely, again, imo, not worthy of an ignore.
In fact, I disagree with ty_ger about what I consider walmart psu's....and these cards....my FTW3 has played new world, halo mcc and other 'killers' and not skipped a beat...I've had it since release...(well, a week after)
After decades of experience with forum zealots, it became obvious that putting such people on the ignore list is the most effective approach.
Really doesn't help your theory if you have no confidence in providing any testing information in either this thread or the other thread (where your response was just "no", three different times).
Where did you get your degree in electrical engineering out of curiosity?
As I stated already, this isn't my theory, research, or conclusion. That makes the question quite irrelevant, yes? You can view my profile if you want to know more about me. Michapolys
Intoxicus Where did you get your degree in electrical engineering out of curiosity?
Does not have one. It shows.
On the other hand, the degree only sometimes matches the expertise.
Please tell me about a PSU which uses a 100 hz LLC tank circuit.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2022/02/08 10:09:02
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 10:18:46
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ty_ger07 Please tell me about a PSU which uses a 100 hz LLC tank circuit.
I am more interested in you pointing out where exactly I made such a statement, cause if I ever did I would instantly correct it. I do have the impression that you misinterpreted something I previously wrote. Seems far more feasible.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 11:04:49
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 11:18:03
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 12:06:38
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Michapolys
ty_ger07 No, not at all.
Post #32: https://forums.evga.com/FindPost/3511485 in combination with what you wrote here.
I see nothing about resonant network at 100hz. You can quote it, so I can see it.
There: "a few hundred hertz". I asked you about it multiple times. The answer was "No". Here: "LLC tank circuit". When talking about a couple of orders of magnitude difference, a few hundred hertz is the same thing as 100 hertz. I'm not trying to make you look funny, but why do you keep poking me to do so?
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 12:16:46
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ty_ger07 There: "a few hundred hertz". I asked you about it multiple times. The answer was "No". Here: "LLC tank circuit".
When talking about a couple of orders of magnitude difference, a few hundred hertz is the same thing as 100 hertz.
I'm not trying to make you look funny, but why do you keep poking me to do so?
Random out of context part of sentence will not do. The devil is in the detail they say. You put in my mouth words I never said. You could either quote the whole part where I said what you claim, or you could "not try to make me look funny"... and your choice was to "not try". I guess you could keep "not trying".
post edited by Michapolys - 2022/02/08 12:21:51
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 12:24:43
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Michapolys Random out of context part of sentence will not do. The devil is in the detail they say.
Yes, I agree. The entire premise of your theory is based on a supposedly low PSU switching frequency. Therefore, it is the most important piece of contention. Modern PSUs don't operate at "a few hundred hertz up to dozens of kilohertz". They actually operate at 'dozens of kilohertz up to the lower mhz range'. On mobile, I don't have the time or patience to quote the way you want. It's all there for you to read. Intoxicus is out in left field. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't help when you two band together.
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 13:07:14
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ty_ger07 Yes, I agree. The entire premise of your theory is based on a supposedly low PSU switching frequency. Therefore, it is the most important piece of contention. Modern PSUs don't operate at "a few hundred hertz up to dozens of kilohertz". They actually operate at 'dozens of kilohertz up to the lower mhz range'.
On mobile, I don't have the time or patience to quote the way you want. It's all there for you to read.
Intoxicus is out in left field. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't help when you two band together.
The "supposedly low" switching frequency is one of the reasons why LLC resonant topologies can be so efficient at low loads. The resonant controller is meant to have the primary FETs configured at low effective frequency at low loads. It is not just something expected to happen, it is something meant to happen. The problem lies in the correlation between said effective switching frequency and the available capacitance on the primary input and the secondary output. The lower the configured supported frequency, the lower the switching losses, the higher the low load efficiency, but the more available capacitance required to support the same step size, at the same slew rate, for the target capacitive load you want to support. If your input capacitance is too small you end up emptying it and the system shuts down (or if you have a circuit breaker, it detects the empty primary cap(s) as a short and it trips). If your output capacitance is too small... well, the people having problems with their GPUs know first hand what happens in that case. You can work around your system black screening, and even the GPU dying due to power delivery issues with LLC resonant topologies by just disabling any sort of power saving on the system. On Windows you disable power savings on your current power plan (CPU at 100% min and max, no PCI-E standby etc.), and you disable power saving on the GPU driver (power management at maximum performance). On the system BIOS you disable the various power saving setting on the motherboard and disable the CPU C-states. If you have power delivery issues and do the above, the system should be fine and stable. It is only a workaround though. You can try it yourself and let me know how it went.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 13:50:32
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Michapolys The "supposedly low" switching frequency is one of the reasons why LLC resonant topologies can be so efficient at low loads. The resonant controller is meant to have the primary FETs configured at low effective frequency at low loads. It is not just something expected to happen, it is something meant to happen.
Again, can you provide an example of a modern PSU operating down at the 100hz switching frequency range? If your output capacitance is too small... well, the people having problems with their GPUs know first hand what happens in that case. Interesting. But you expect the CPU and memory and every other portion of the system to continue to operate, and for the GPU fans to run at 100%, and for the game audio to continue to play? If you have power delivery issues and do the above, the system should be fine and stable. It is only a workaround though. You can try it yourself and let me know how it went.
No, I don't need to. I have a GPU which isn't known to have red light failures. I use C1E halt states, and GPU and CPU power saving settings, and even duration-based CPU power limits, yet my computer doesn't fail.
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Michapolys
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 13:55:18
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ty_ger07 No, I don't need to. I have a GPU which isn't known to have red light failures. I use C1E halt states, and GPU and CPU power saving settings, and even duration-based CPU power limits, yet my computer doesn't fail.
Good for you.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Is Halo MCC safe for 30 series cards?
2022/02/08 14:37:41
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Cool. Well, 5 weeks ago I asked the questions. Still waiting.
ASRock Z77 • Intel Core i7 3770K • EVGA GTX 1080 • Samsung 850 Pro • Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium My EVGA Score: 1546 • Zero Associates Points • I don't shill
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