ty_ger07
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 05:21:21
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Nereus
nomoss
ty_ger07
nomoss
Because it's 10x more deadly than the flu.
But it's not.
Your assertion is demonstrably false. Science, not political hacks, shows the severity.
https://www.mayoclinic.or...us-vs-flu/art-20490339
Well.. Ty_ger07 is sort of correct ...he said it's not true the covid is 10x more deadly than the flu. Based on CDC numbers, it's more like 12x more deadly.
Deaths in USA from flu per CDC (source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html):
2010-2011: 37,000
2011-2012: 12,000
2012-2013: 43,000
2013-2014: 38,000
2014-2015: 51,000
2015-2016: 23,000
2016-2017: 30,000
2017-2018: 52,000
2018-2019: 28,000
2019-2020: 20,000
Average = 33,400 per year.
Deaths in USA from covid per CDC (source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm)
2020: 385,358
2021: 436,453 (estimated based on 400,082 deaths up to end of November, so 436,453 would be total for the year based on average from Jan-Nov).
Average = 410,679 per year.
so... 33,400 average from flu per year vs 410,679 average from covid per year = 12.3 times more deadly.
We aren't comparing the same thing. Deaths per case is different than deaths per year. "10x more deadly" is a case-by-case comparison, in my opinion. Deaths per case is also very hard to compare fairly, and there has been a lot of junk data for various political and financial reasons, but even still the two are a lot closer in severity, and the curves are coming together even closer and closer as time progresses. If you get COVID, the chances that you survive are 99.something%. The .something% is the part we can argue about, but when you put it all into perspective, this campaign has gotten a bit insane. No one knows the survivability rate of COVID. There is too much junk data, too much missing data, and things keep changing. CDC estimates the overall survivability rate as high as 99.75%. That doesn't sound too bad to me. I think political and financial gain are the primary forces keeping this in motion. I have nothing against vaccines or masks (I did/do my part in both aspects), but I just think it is getting awfully drawn out to ridiculous proportions as time progresses. https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2021/12/07 10:15:30
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nomoss
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 07:06:13
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yaggaz
Please stop the strawman arguments. You have so many here. Nobody here is saying Corona isn't real or those numbers are made up. The argument is that it's blown out of proportion when you consider how few have caught it.
Of the global population, 266 million people have been infected. That's 3.8% of the planet. Let that sink in. Of that 3.8% only %2.1 percent of those infected died. So it has a %97.9 survival rate.
All death is tragic, yes. But millions also die from flu, colds, bronchitis, pneumonia every year. Why aren't we grinding the planet to a halt for those virus too? Did their deaths not matter? Or is it only people who die from covid whose life matters?
Is it tragic? Heck yeah. Does it justify destroying the global economy out of knee jerk paranoia and over the top lockdowns and totalitarian mandates? Heck no.
Now who's making a strawman argument? The thing about actions taken to prevent further deaths is that if it works, it looks like you didn't need to do it. 3.8% of the population as of this date and that number doesn't worry you. Got it. 2.1% death rate isn't good enough. 5.6 million dead, nah, that's not a problem. It's tragic, but only in an intellectual sense. Got it.
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yaggaz
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 17:16:36
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nomoss
yaggaz
Please stop the strawman arguments. You have so many here. Nobody here is saying Corona isn't real or those numbers are made up. The argument is that it's blown out of proportion when you consider how few have caught it.
Of the global population, 266 million people have been infected. That's 3.8% of the planet. Let that sink in. Of that 3.8% only %2.1 percent of those infected died. So it has a %97.9 survival rate.
All death is tragic, yes. But millions also die from flu, colds, bronchitis, pneumonia every year. Why aren't we grinding the planet to a halt for those virus too? Did their deaths not matter? Or is it only people who die from covid whose life matters?
Is it tragic? Heck yeah. Does it justify destroying the global economy out of knee jerk paranoia and over the top lockdowns and totalitarian mandates? Heck no.
Now who's making a strawman argument?
The thing about actions taken to prevent further deaths is that if it works, it looks like you didn't need to do it.
3.8% of the population as of this date and that number doesn't worry you. Got it.
2.1% death rate isn't good enough. 5.6 million dead, nah, that's not a problem.
It's tragic, but only in an intellectual sense. Got it.
Both my parents died of cancer. Good friends died of it. Uncles etc. Many people I've been close to. 10 million a year die from it, that's 4 times as much as covid. So where's your outrage over this? Where's the demand from you to shut down the world economy, shut down all the chemical plants, all the pesticides, ban all the food additives, lock everybody in their homes until the cure to cancer is %100 covered. I mean if it kills 4 times as many as covid, where is the global grind to a halt? Death is tragic, but part of life. You don't stop the human race from living because of the reality of death. You fight it and hinder it without enslaving people to bull**** actions. Be a compliant slave if you want, revel in it.
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Nereus
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 17:31:06
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yaggaz
nomoss
yaggaz
Please stop the strawman arguments. You have so many here. Nobody here is saying Corona isn't real or those numbers are made up. The argument is that it's blown out of proportion when you consider how few have caught it.
Of the global population, 266 million people have been infected. That's 3.8% of the planet. Let that sink in. Of that 3.8% only %2.1 percent of those infected died. So it has a %97.9 survival rate.
All death is tragic, yes. But millions also die from flu, colds, bronchitis, pneumonia every year. Why aren't we grinding the planet to a halt for those virus too? Did their deaths not matter? Or is it only people who die from covid whose life matters?
Is it tragic? Heck yeah. Does it justify destroying the global economy out of knee jerk paranoia and over the top lockdowns and totalitarian mandates? Heck no.
Now who's making a strawman argument?
The thing about actions taken to prevent further deaths is that if it works, it looks like you didn't need to do it.
3.8% of the population as of this date and that number doesn't worry you. Got it.
2.1% death rate isn't good enough. 5.6 million dead, nah, that's not a problem.
It's tragic, but only in an intellectual sense. Got it.
Both my parents died of cancer. Good friends died of it. Uncles etc. Many people I've been close to. 10 million a year die from it, that's 4 times as much as covid. So where's your outrage over this? Where's the demand from you to shut down the world economy, shut down all the chemical plants, all the pesticides, ban all the food additives, lock everybody in their homes until the cure to cancer is %100 covered. I mean if it kills 4 times as many as covid, where is the global grind to a halt?
Death is tragic, but part of life. You don't stop the human race from living because of the reality of death. You fight it and hinder it without enslaving people to bull**** actions. Be a compliant slave if you want, revel in it.
Really sorry to hear that, but you must realize that is an extremely poor comparison - cancer is not contagious, and 'shutting down the world economy' would have no impact on it. That is also about as clear an example of a strawman argument as one could make. There are constantly new items considered to be carcinogenic and thus banned from use, and there are ways to fight many forms of cancer, and every year billions upon billions of dollars are spent on research to that end. Likewise there are ways to fight a contagious virus, and the primary and most obvious is by trying to stop the spread in the first place, and the second is by vaccination. That is base level minimum common sense, or at least it should be. Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama.
post edited by Nereus - 2021/12/07 17:35:21
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ty_ger07
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 17:50:54
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Nereus
Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama.
I have no problem with people having the option to vaccinate, given consequences for not vaccinating in specific circumstances for specific jobs or activites, and being required to wear a mask. The problem I have is when money is made, excuses are made, people are harmed, and politics uses it to further an agenda. It has gone WAY, WAY, WAY too far. It will never go away. When will the nonsense subside?
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yaggaz
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 18:18:19
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Nereus
Really sorry to hear that, but you must realize that is an extremely poor comparison - cancer is not contagious, and 'shutting down the world economy' would have no impact on it. That is also about as clear an example of a strawman argument as one could make. No it is not. The soapboxing here is that these lives are important and thus justify what's going on around us. Contagious or not is a moot point, why don't we lock everybody in their homes until cancer is cured? Cos, you know, all those lives lost justify controlling the human population. Likewise there are ways to fight a contagious virus, and the primary and most obvious is by trying to stop the spread in the first place, Oh yeah and that was a total success right? Only would take two weeks. Oh... wait... Nope the real answer is this thing is going nowhere until we've all caught it and developed natural immunity to it. and the second is by vaccination. Keep drinking the kool aid from the drug companies that are making billions out of this dangerous placebo. I personally know four people who still caught covid after they were vaccinated. I'm sure you, as the other propaganda lords will argue, is that they are special somehow, they are "breakthrough" cases lol. Nope the clot shot is ineffective. I'll keep my natural immunity thanks. That is base level minimum common sense, or at least it should be. Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama. I have no problem with the mask, it won't destroy my heart like the vaccine can. Don't believe me? Believe genuine agencies, unless you wanna brush these organisations off with your cognitive dissonance that they too are now "conspiracy" sites. From the American Heart Association: mRNA vaccines dramatically increase risk of developing heart disease — “The PLUS Cardiac Test score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.” From the National Institutes of Health: FDA‐approved anti‐parasite drug ivermectin is also an antibacterial, antiviral, and anticancer agent, which offers more potentiality to improve global public health, and it can effectively inhibit the replication of SARS‐CoV‐2 in vitro. As for "drama" if you think having ones livelihood destroyed and taken away from them just because they want to choose what goes into their body is "drama", then maybe North Korea would be more to your liking.
post edited by yaggaz - 2021/12/07 18:24:11
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Chaos_21
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 19:00:14
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yaggaz
Nereus
Really sorry to hear that, but you must realize that is an extremely poor comparison - cancer is not contagious, and 'shutting down the world economy' would have no impact on it. That is also about as clear an example of a strawman argument as one could make.
No it is not. The soapboxing here is that these lives are important and thus justify what's going on around us. Contagious or not is a moot point, why don't we lock everybody in their homes until cancer is cured? Cos, you know, all those lives lost justify controlling the human population.
Likewise there are ways to fight a contagious virus, and the primary and most obvious is by trying to stop the spread in the first place,
Oh yeah and that was a total success right? Only would take two weeks. Oh... wait... Nope the real answer is this thing is going nowhere until we've all caught it and developed natural immunity to it.
and the second is by vaccination.
Keep drinking the kool aid from the drug companies that are making billions out of this dangerous placebo. I personally know four people who still caught covid after they were vaccinated. I'm sure you, as the other propaganda lords will argue, is that they are special somehow, they are "breakthrough" cases lol. Nope the clot shot is ineffective. I'll keep my natural immunity thanks.
That is base level minimum common sense, or at least it should be. Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama.
I have no problem with the mask, it won't destroy my heart like the vaccine can. Don't believe me? Believe genuine agencies, unless you wanna brush these organisations off with your cognitive dissonance that they too are now "conspiracy" sites.
From the American Heart Association: mRNA vaccines dramatically increase risk of developing heart disease — “The PLUS Cardiac Test score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.”
From the National Institutes of Health: FDA‐approved anti‐parasite drug ivermectin is also an antibacterial, antiviral, and anticancer agent, which offers more potentiality to improve global public health, and it can effectively inhibit the replication of SARS‐CoV‐2 in vitro.
As for "drama" if you think having ones livelihood destroyed and taken away from them just because they want to choose what goes into their body is "drama", then maybe North Korea would be more to your liking.
Don't believe everything you hear yaggaz. The American Heart Association published an “expression of concern” in its journal on Nov. 24 to warn that the passage may not be reliable and that a “suitable correction was needed
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Nereus
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 19:10:14
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yaggaz
Nereus
Really sorry to hear that, but you must realize that is an extremely poor comparison - cancer is not contagious, and 'shutting down the world economy' would have no impact on it. That is also about as clear an example of a strawman argument as one could make.
No it is not. The soapboxing here is that these lives are important and thus justify what's going on around us. Contagious or not is a moot point, why don't we lock everybody in their homes until cancer is cured? Cos, you know, all those lives lost justify controlling the human population.
Hate to have to state the obvious again, locking everybody in their homes would make no difference to getting cancer, however it would most certainly make a difference to catching a highly contagious virus, LOL.. seems extremely obvious, but I guess not to everybody. yaggaz
Nereus
Likewise there are ways to fight a contagious virus, and the primary and most obvious is by trying to stop the spread in the first place,
Oh yeah and that was a total success right? Only would take two weeks. Oh... wait... Nope the real answer is this thing is going nowhere until we've all caught it and developed natural immunity to it.
You realize that vaccination is a way to gain immunity without having millions die in the process instead, right? yaggaz
Nereus
and the second is by vaccination.
Keep drinking the kool aid from the drug companies that are making billions out of this dangerous placebo. I personally know four people who still caught covid after they were vaccinated. I'm sure you, as the other propaganda lords will argue, is that they are special somehow, they are "breakthrough" cases lol. Nope the clot shot is ineffective. I'll keep my natural immunity thanks.
Oh please.. no vaccine is 100% effective, and nobody claimed it is. Based on actual numbers, it is abundantly clear that being vaccinated not only increases resistance to covid, it also helps decrease the severity if you do catch it. We have the results from effectively the biggest human trial in history to prove it with literally hundreds of millions of participants to back that up. Claiming the vaccine is nothing but a placebo in light of the available data is either outright ignorance or you're just being intentionally obtuse. yaggaz
Nereus
That is base level minimum common sense, or at least it should be. Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama.
I have no problem with the mask, it won't destroy my heart like the vaccine can. Don't believe me? Believe genuine agencies, unless you wanna brush these organisations off with your cognitive dissonance that they too are now "conspiracy" sites.
From the American Heart Association: mRNA vaccines dramatically increase risk of developing heart disease — “The PLUS Cardiac Test score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.”
From the National Institutes of Health: FDA‐approved anti‐parasite drug ivermectin is also an antibacterial, antiviral, and anticancer agent, which offers more potentiality to improve global public health, and it can effectively inhibit the replication of SARS‐CoV‐2 in vitro.
As for "drama" if you think having ones livelihood destroyed and taken away from them just because they want to choose what goes into their body is "drama", then maybe North Korea would be more to your liking.
You forgot to mention that those potential heart issues apply almost exclusively to males in the under 18 age group (at least with any significance), and that with any other age group or gender the risk is far less, to the point of being non-existent, and certainly when relative to the risk of developing serious cases of covid, up to and including death. Virtually all medicines carry some risk btw, even aspirin, yet in the US most don't think twice about all the crap they shove down their gullets every day that is loaded with preservatives, sugars, and corn syrup derivatives. It's relative risk that is relevant, since you decided to bring it up. edit: also thanks to Chaos_21 for updating that the American Heart Association has since published an “expression of concern” in its journal on Nov. 24 to warn that the passage you referred to about heart issues may not be reliable and that a “suitable correction was needed". As far as ivermectin goes, lol, another strawman, but I'll address it; sure - it has the 'potential' to improve treatment for covid, but so does skipping stones across a lake... my point being that potential doesn't mean zip without extensive scientific testing and trials. It is just as possible a drug designed for horses could 'potentially' kill a human. In saying that, there are a number of cases it appears to have helped people with covid, but it was used in conjunction with other drugs, and the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant at this point. In time that may change, because as you said, there's always potential - just as there is with anything. The proof is in the pudding. We don't have that proof yet. We *do* however have very *very* strong and statistically significant proof that the vaccines work. You keep throwing out terms like 'strawman' and now 'cognitive dissonance' ..maybe you should understand a little better what they mean and how they are applied. I don't like that people are losing their jobs over choosing what goes in their bodies, and I agree that natural attained immunity from already having caught covid should be sufficient reason not to require taking the vaccine if you still have strong antibody presence in your system - no argument from me there. HOWEVER all of this may be completely moot if it turns out the vaccines are not resistant to the new Omicron variant. If not, we'll be back at square one. Look, if you staunchly believe in not having a vaccine, that's your choice, and who am I to say you shouldn't be able to determine what you want to do to yourself or what risks you are prepared to take to avoid it, but don't try denying its effectiveness - there are mountains of data that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that vaccines are effective, and the risk of serious adverse effects from vaccines are so small that you literally have more chance of winning the lottery. The stupid North Korea comment was just that - stupid and needless. One last thing. I was very dubious about the mRNA vaccines when they first were given emergency use approval by the FDA. I waited to see the data once large numbers had taken the vaccine and a reasonable amount of time had passed without people dropping dead all over the place from it. Once the data was available, I looked into it again and adjusted my view accordingly ..seems a lot of people get stuck with that step. I have since had both doses and am fine, as are over 190,000,000 other US citizens, but I still continue to wear a mask in public because I'm also aware the vaccine does not provide 100% protection. I wonder if I got all the quotes and /quotes in the right place, lol.
post edited by Nereus - 2021/12/07 19:21:12
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yaggaz
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 19:28:25
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Chaos_21
yaggaz
Nereus
Really sorry to hear that, but you must realize that is an extremely poor comparison - cancer is not contagious, and 'shutting down the world economy' would have no impact on it. That is also about as clear an example of a strawman argument as one could make.
No it is not. The soapboxing here is that these lives are important and thus justify what's going on around us. Contagious or not is a moot point, why don't we lock everybody in their homes until cancer is cured? Cos, you know, all those lives lost justify controlling the human population.
Likewise there are ways to fight a contagious virus, and the primary and most obvious is by trying to stop the spread in the first place,
Oh yeah and that was a total success right? Only would take two weeks. Oh... wait... Nope the real answer is this thing is going nowhere until we've all caught it and developed natural immunity to it.
and the second is by vaccination.
Keep drinking the kool aid from the drug companies that are making billions out of this dangerous placebo. I personally know four people who still caught covid after they were vaccinated. I'm sure you, as the other propaganda lords will argue, is that they are special somehow, they are "breakthrough" cases lol. Nope the clot shot is ineffective. I'll keep my natural immunity thanks.
That is base level minimum common sense, or at least it should be. Having to wear a mask and get a vaccine shot is not 'enslavement', cut the drama.
I have no problem with the mask, it won't destroy my heart like the vaccine can. Don't believe me? Believe genuine agencies, unless you wanna brush these organisations off with your cognitive dissonance that they too are now "conspiracy" sites.
From the American Heart Association: mRNA vaccines dramatically increase risk of developing heart disease — “The PLUS Cardiac Test score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.”
From the National Institutes of Health: FDA‐approved anti‐parasite drug ivermectin is also an antibacterial, antiviral, and anticancer agent, which offers more potentiality to improve global public health, and it can effectively inhibit the replication of SARS‐CoV‐2 in vitro.
As for "drama" if you think having ones livelihood destroyed and taken away from them just because they want to choose what goes into their body is "drama", then maybe North Korea would be more to your liking.
Don't believe everything you hear yaggaz. The American Heart Association published an “expression of concern” in its journal on Nov. 24 to warn that the passage may not be reliable and that a “suitable correction was needed More like they stepped out of line by allowing the truth to be seen and were then reeled in.
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Nereus
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 19:33:29
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yaggaz
Chaos_21
Don't believe everything you hear yaggaz.
The American Heart Association published an “expression of concern” in its journal on Nov. 24 to warn that the passage may not be reliable and that a “suitable correction was needed
More like they stepped out of line by allowing the truth to be seen and were then reeled in.
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Sajin
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Re: Are we headed for a dystopia?
2021/12/07 19:46:52
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Locking thread per op request.
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