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Helpful ReplyScreen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV

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sturmbelial
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2019/03/19 07:29:23 (permalink)
Good Morning All,
 
I'm actually making this post for a second opinion and re-affirmation of something I learned recently during a discussion on a thread on a different forum.
 
Last year I bought a TCL 6 Series 55" UHD TV (55R617) when it released, exclusively for 100% PC Gaming only. I have an HTPC/Gaming rig connected to it. I'm a passionate gamer, and only game on TV (with XBOX One Controller), not on a desktop.
 
The PC is equipped with:
Intel i7-6800K (6 Core/12 Thread) OC'd to 4Ghz - Water cooled
16 GB DDR4 RAM
ASUS X99-A II Motherboard
 
At the time, the PC was equipped with an ASUS ROG Strix GTX 1080 video card. Since I played on 3840 x 2160 (4K) resolution, my frame rates were really low. I would hover around 30fps - 40fps.
 
I recently replaced my GTX 1080 with an EVGA RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra Hybrid video card. This card has been slightly overclocked using the auto-overclocking features in the EVGA Precision X1 (OC Scanner).
 
With "GAME MODE" turned "ON" in my TV Set, at 4K:
- If I keep the "VSYNC" option "OFF" in my game settings, I get very high FPS, like 75, 85, even 90. However, I cannot play at this setting as the image begins to cut off, as if one part is still behind while the other part has moved on. I did some research and found it is called 'Screen Tearing'.
- If I keep "VSYNC" option "ON", this problem goes away completely. No screen tearing. I get a very beautiful, smooth and pristine image. However, my FPS is stuck at 60 which I believe is the intent of VSYNC.
 
I learned that HDMI 2.0b is only capable of 60 FPS at 4K, which is what the RTX 2080 Ti offers, and I'm told that the only way to move past 60 FPS is to connect to a DisplayPort PC Monitor.
 
From what I'm observing, the HDMI, Graphics & TV are able to push past 60fps, but it causes screen tearing. Maybe that is what is meant by the statement "HDMI 2.0b is only capable of 60 FPS at 4K". I've also read that different TV Sets have different performance related to screen tearing. Some are better than others. 
 
I'm actually willing to buy another TV Set and replace my TCL if one is capable of allowing the VSYNC "OFF" in my game settings to push past 60 FPS without screen tearing.
 
Which brings me to my question - Is it true that there is no TV capable of 60+ FPS without screen tearing at 4K resolution? That the only way to achieve 60+ FPS without screen tearing is to either connect to a PC Monitor with DisplayPort (or using a GPU/TV with HDMI 2.1)?
 
Thanks!!
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Sajin
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/19 09:39:33 (permalink)
HDMI 2.0b can do 75 Hz @ 4:2:2 & 120 Hz @ 4:2:0. The solution to your problem is to buy a display that supports higher than 60 Hz. Such as this tv or this monitor. You'll want to use display port with both of those displays.
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boylerya
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/19 14:46:01 (permalink)
Your best option is to buy a TV with HDMI 2.1 because that connection supports variable refresh rate and ultra low latency mode.  However you need to wait for NVIDIA to release a new series of video cards that have an HDMI 2.1 connector and buy one of those as well. If you are extremely lucky, there is the ability for HDMI 2.0b that I believe is what is on your current video card to gain the VRR and ULL modes with a update to the driver as some other devices that have HDMI 2.0b have done, but whether or not NVIDIA will do that is questionable and becomes more unlikely with every passing day.

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sturmbelial
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/19 15:10:35 (permalink)
Sajin
HDMI 2.0b can do 75 Hz @ 4:2:2 & 120 Hz @ 4:2:0. The solution to your problem is to buy a display that supports higher than 60 Hz. Such as this tv or this monitor. You'll want to use display port with both of those displays.


 
Ok, let's take one step back as this is all somewhat new for me and I'm trying to understand this. 
 
I definitely understand that the higher frame rates are totally possible without screen tearing using DisplayPort, which is really not available on regular TVs but rather PC Monitors. I see the one you linked to on eBay, but I would prefer something which is around 55" and at least has HDR, if not Dolby Vision (Since Mass Effect is the only game I play using Dolby Vision and I can sacrifice that and use HDR). I don't believe a PC Monitor is going to work for me, giving me about 55" of screen size with HDR/Dolby Vision. And I would like to stick to at least some level of brand - whether it's Vizio, TCL or Samsung, Sony, etc.
 
But I want to focus on the first part of your sentence. You said HDMI 2.0b can do 75 Hz @ 4:2:2 & 120 Hz @ 4:2:0. What exactly is "4:2:2" and "4:2:0". How do I set that up in my TV? If I setup "4:2:2" i my TV, will I be able to get 75 FPS without screen tearing? I want to get a little more clarity on this first part of your statement because it looks like you're telling HDMI 2.0b "CAN DO" more then 60 FPS.
 
Related to that, if I had a TV which had a native refresh rate of 120 HZ, something like this:
https://www.samsung.com/us/televisions-home-theater/tvs/premium-uhd-tvs/55--class-mu9000-4k-uhd-tv-un55mu9000fxza/
 
It doesn't have a DisplayPort or HDMI 2.1, only HDMI 2.0b, but it does have a "Native Refresh Rate" of 120 HZ (And then they talk about some enhanced refresh rate of 240, but I'm not too concerned with that) --- Will a TV like this be able to provide over 60 FPS without screen tearing?
 
boylerya
Your best option is to buy a TV with HDMI 2.1 because that connection supports variable refresh rate and ultra low latency mode.  However you need to wait for NVIDIA to release a new series of video cards that have an HDMI 2.1 connector and buy one of those as well. If you are extremely lucky, there is the ability for HDMI 2.0b that I believe is what is on your current video card to gain the VRR and ULL modes with a update to the driver as some other devices that have HDMI 2.0b have done, but whether or not NVIDIA will do that is questionable and becomes more unlikely with every passing day.



Yeah, unfortunately that's a little ways away. You're talking about a new Graphics Card which isn't available yet, and a new TV. That's definitely not happening today. As for the driver update, we don't have that from Nvidia either (and may never have), so this is definitely not a solution for me right now. 
 
Thanks guys.
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Sajin
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/19 15:35:41 (permalink)
sturmbelial
Sajin
HDMI 2.0b can do 75 Hz @ 4:2:2 & 120 Hz @ 4:2:0. The solution to your problem is to buy a display that supports higher than 60 Hz. Such as this tv or this monitor. You'll want to use display port with both of those displays.


 
Ok, let's take one step back as this is all somewhat new for me and I'm trying to understand this. 
 
I definitely understand that the higher frame rates are totally possible without screen tearing using DisplayPort, which is really not available on regular TVs but rather PC Monitors. I see the one you linked to on eBay, but I would prefer something which is around 55" and at least has HDR, if not Dolby Vision (Since Mass Effect is the only game I play using Dolby Vision and I can sacrifice that and use HDR). I don't believe a PC Monitor is going to work for me, giving me about 55" of screen size with HDR/Dolby Vision. And I would like to stick to at least some level of brand - whether it's Vizio, TCL or Samsung, Sony, etc.
 
But I want to focus on the first part of your sentence. You said HDMI 2.0b can do 75 Hz @ 4:2:2 & 120 Hz @ 4:2:0. What exactly is "4:2:2" and "4:2:0". How do I set that up in my TV? If I setup "4:2:2" i my TV, will I be able to get 75 FPS without screen tearing? I want to get a little more clarity on this first part of your statement because it looks like you're telling HDMI 2.0b "CAN DO" more then 60 FPS.
 
Related to that, if I had a TV which had a native refresh rate of 120 HZ, something like this:
https://www.samsung.com/us/televisions-home-theater/tvs/premium-uhd-tvs/55--class-mu9000-4k-uhd-tv-un55mu9000fxza/
 
It doesn't have a DisplayPort or HDMI 2.1, only HDMI 2.0b, but it does have a "Native Refresh Rate" of 120 HZ (And then they talk about some enhanced refresh rate of 240, but I'm not too concerned with that) --- Will a TV like this be able to provide over 60 FPS without screen tearing?

The 4:2:2 & 4:2:0 I was referring to is the chroma subsampling setting. You can adjust these settings inside the nvidia control panel...
 

 
No, higher frame rates aren't possible over display port without your monitoring being able to run a higher Hz setting. Most TV's only support 30 to 60 Hz. With v-sync enabled you'll be limited to the max supported Hz setting your display can support. The one I listed can actually do 120 Hz as claimed. The samsung tv you linked claims 120 Hz, but it can't do it. The monitor I linked can also do HDR.
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Sajin
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/19 15:43:32 (permalink)
If you want a 55" or bigger you'll need to empty your wallet... https://www.amazon.com/HP...treaming/dp/B07M888GH8
 
https://www.nvidia.com/en...ormat-gaming-displays/
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sturmbelial
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/20 07:40:21 (permalink)
LOL!! No, I'm not spending $4,000 to go from 60fps to 75fps occasionally ;)
 
So I think your answers have reaffirmed what I found elsewhere. On the currently available mainstream TV sets and with my current hardware, I really have no option but to use VSYNC and limit frame rate to 60 FPS. I was not aware of this. This is not a deal breaker for me as I doubt my naked eye would see a magnificent difference between 60fps & 75fps, and I'm not interested in switching to a PC Monitor, nor spending thousands of dollars to correct this, I would have definitely spent $900 or so to get a new Samsung or Vizio or LG TV, but since this is not possible, it's fine. 
 
I just wanted to get a second opinion and make sure what I was told was correct.
 
Sajin
 
The 4:2:2 & 4:2:0 I was referring to is the chroma subsampling setting. You can adjust these settings inside the nvidia control panel...

Ah, I understand! Thank you. But I take it this is not going to resolve my issue as my TV set will still not allow 60+ FPS either way.
 
Sajin
The samsung tv you linked claims 120 Hz, but it can't do it.



I just wanted to check with you on this statement - Why is this so? They actually claim "240 Hz" using some enhanced motion rate technology, but the "Native Refresh Rate" on that panel is listed as "120 Hz". Is this a known industry fact? Then why are they claiming 120 Hz? There are several such mainstream sets, from Vizio, LG, Sony, Samsung, which claim 120 Hz. Are none of them able to do it?
 
Thanks much for your help!
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Sajin
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/20 12:15:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby sturmbelial 2019/03/21 07:27:50
Yeah, dropping the chroma isn't going to help your current tv at all.
 
sturmbelial
Why is this so?

Because the tv is limited by hdmi 2.0a. 4k along with HDR require massive bandwidth that hdmi 2.0a can't provide. Now if you want to do only 4k @ 75 hz or 120 hz with no HDR then you may be able to get by with dropping the chroma settings on the mu9000.
 
The tv I linked can do full chroma, at 120 hz with hdr all at the same time. =)
post edited by Sajin - 2019/03/20 12:21:05
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aguering
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Re: Screen Tearing & 60+ FPS Gaming on TV 2019/03/21 20:56:42 (permalink)
I think you need DisplayPort, I play 4K over 60 fps on it and HDMI isn't even capable of 30 fps (my hdmi is 1.2 though I'm not sure about 2.0 but I'm guessing it's 60hz capable). But yeah, DP is generally the interface what you want to use. Just make sure you look for the lastest versions of course.
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