respectX
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I can't contact support without agreeing to what I consider an onerous demand. Some of it, like Facebook plugin integration can be stripped away to a reasonably acceptable degree with extensions, but I will not pen my name to a document that attempts to legally bind me to all future alterations, in perpetuity, without regard to foreknowledge of those alterations. There's no telling what's coming down the pipeline, and the attempt is on very shaky ground in the US; potentially reaching the point of being entirely unenforceable. Now, I paid for the highest warranty option for this particular card (warranted until 2026); perhaps my other, as well. I'd need to check, but all I was trying to do was download PrecisionX for diagnostic purposes sorting out a system issue and to eliminate the GPU as a potential cause, and this is what I encountered. I've kind of got a problem here. I paid for a warranty, but I will not sign a document, this time explicitly demanding I agree to be bound by all future alterations. For the record, a good portion of that document is incorrect from a language perspective, anyway, and thus partially void. So, what's my solution, here? I'm not going to agree to those terms just to call up and say I don't want to agree to the terms. That entire document needs to be re-written, but my main question is what am I supposed to do? Request a prorated warranty refund and just sell the 980Ti Classified and GTX 1080 SC? I'm perfectly happy with that option if it's going to be a smooth experience.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 17:35:11
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Ever heard of steam? You can download precision from steam.
You wont find any company that will refund your extended warranty almost 2 years later, since it was purchased in 2016, but of course, you knew thag before even typing it and just put that there for effect.
If you dont want to agree to the terms, which most companies recently updated, then dont agree to them.
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Hoggle
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 17:46:04
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I can understand people wondering about the changes in service. I don’t think it’s at all being paranoid after millions of people had Facebook share data with a third party. I personally see the privacy laws in the future being less restrictive in the future as the new European law shows.
post edited by rjohnson11 - 2018/06/11 07:27:16
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 18:16:22
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I have read every single contract I've ever signed, and even returned products to stores when I didn't like the language in the box. As a business owner specializing in properties that require a lot of paperwork, I write the darn things constantly. This document is in error, as well as onerous (likely unintentionally, given the number of errors present elsewhere) and unfortunately, I cannot manage my warranty, contact support, or even see my account without signing it. Let me again state that one of the few areas that is indeed clear demands acceptance of being legally bound to any future changes, and without expiration explicitly illustrated, perpetuity is to be assumed without a lengthy battle up to Federal regulation. This is different than documents changing over time (such as the recent mass alterations of privacy policies; most of which ended up perfectly fine) and requiring approval updates on occasion. PrecisionX was just the reason I encountered the issue. I'm not specifically in need of the software. There are other ways to accomplish the same thing. I figured while I was in there I'd update my e-mail address, but after hitting that wall, I stopped. I simply will not sign that new document as written, and I have things that need doing. What I require is a suggested resolution for the issue. This thread is helping EVGA, not hurting them. Since I sold my Matrox card neigh on two decades ago, I've used EVGA cards for my Nvidia-based co-processing. Typically, the quality of construction is higher than other manufacturers, and support tends to be superior. I can't, however, reach support without agreeing to those terms; so it's no longer a benefit. I'm not going to argue with people about what I should or should not be considering in relation to "paranoia". That's not on the table, and everyone should be glad it isn't, because I've got a lot to say about how we got to this point, and enough fingers to point at everyone. If you stepped in to swing at me, you may as well go find something else to do, because you're wasting your time discussing something beyond your level of education and/or experience. That's fine, but be aware you're only hurting the company in that effort. I may need a relatively quick solution, but I'm willing to help EVGA sort out their paperwork issues, or at least point out that there are major flaws in what they've got. I like the company, and I'm not going to just throw them under the bus, but this does have to be solved; if not for me, than for themselves and the rest of their customers. That kind of document is a liability. At the very least, someone has now pointed it out, but I'll still have some manner of resolution one way or another. What form it takes remains to be seen, but I will never sign that document. There are other options, but I would imagine EVGA will find some way to meet me in the middle to solve the more immediate problem. I'm not one to go for the throat just because someone left a brick in my path. For all I know it was an accident. I'm not looking for member opinions, here. I'm waiting for a moderator who can contact EVGA, or an EVGA support employee who just happens to stop in.
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_JeffP
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 21:11:59
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☼ Best Answerby Hoggle 2018/06/10 22:55:50
Almost every company (just because I haven't seen one that is an exception doesn't mean they don't exist.) has a privacy policy or terms and conditions that state they may change at any time without notice. It's not even just industry standard it's a standard. You can always communicate with us via phone if you choose or our email address is publicly available as well.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 21:34:11
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In this short thread I've already grown tired of the attitudes and obvious responses. I don't need to hear the same thing parroted again. There's changing without notice, and then there's being legally bound to any future changes in perpetuity. Two different things entirely. One is a standard, and another can't legally exist once challenged at great expense. I'm pointing out a fact; not a supposition or hypothesis. If I want an expert in the field, I'll look in the mirror. I searched for EVGA customer service countless ways earlier to no avail. All lead me right to that form aside from the forum. Now I've done it again, and it's in big, bold letters at the top of the search results. Odd. Bah. Whatever. I'll call tomorrow.
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Hoggle
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/10 22:56:08
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Trolling is not allowed on the forums. Just because some people read EULA doesn't mean they are wrong to question the wording. I know most people just click accept but if someone has questions they should be able to ask EVGA about the verbiage without feeling attacked by others.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 00:02:42
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I'm sure we all appreciate that, Hoggle. To be fair, beyond my own position, I should have detailed the reasons for concern further. It may have seemed as more of an attack and less as a notification of needed repairs.
post edited by respectX - 2018/06/11 00:05:42
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Nozler
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 08:39:11
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@respect I saw that twice didn't agree to it and then saw it again for some reason, sure hope I didn't the second time. :/
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transdogmifier
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 08:48:35
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Being bound in perpetuity is ...wrong. I don't think that's legally binding..if that wording (I don't know, haven't seen it because I don't use precision X ....no intention to either) is in the 'contract' I wouldn't sign it either.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 09:03:24
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transdogmifier Being bound in perpetuity is ...wrong. I don't think that's legally binding..if that wording (I don't know, haven't seen it because I don't use precision X ....no intention to either) is in the 'contract' I wouldn't sign it either.
It can be binding, depending upon what you're doing and where you are. In general, you can't often be compelled to do something for the rest of your days, but you can be compelled to not do something. Things like non-disclosure and non-compete agreements can remain in effect until the end of the universe; or at least until the mutual termination of the relationship. EVGA's internal agreements with Nvidia probably show a few areas that "never" expire, in that manner. Well, I'm certain they do, actually. That's a different scenario, however, as I'm sure you've noted. This particular document is in conflict, however. You are right. It's not binding for a number of reasons I'm sure their "new" legal team will discover, but until you fought it you'd be stuck with the results. You'd win eventually, but at what cost of time, and at what cost to EVGA? It's bad for them too, which is why I'm willing to open under the rather generous assumption that it's all an unfortunate mistake.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 09:20:01
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Nozler @respect I saw that twice didn't agree to it and then saw it again for some reason, sure hope I didn't the second time. :/
I've seen that happen; most notably on Yahoo recently. In that particular case, they just went on and did their thing anyway. I caught them skimming mail in accordance with their new policies just last week... Most places ended up having to alter their policies as a result of recent decisions, but some took the opportunity to get clever. Some, like Yahoo, even used it as a distraction to roll out new data collection tools and associations. Some, hopefully like EVGA, just got caught in the middle and uploaded a poor policy in a rush. If you didn't directly check the boxes, you're probably fine, but you'll want to keep an eye out in case something changes. I'd probably keep an eye on various inboxes and spam folders, just in case an update happens.
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EVGA_Lee
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 10:32:23
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respectX
Nozler @respect I saw that twice didn't agree to it and then saw it again for some reason, sure hope I didn't the second time. :/
I've seen that happen; most notably on Yahoo recently. In that particular case, they just went on and did their thing anyway. I caught them skimming mail in accordance with their new policies just last week... Most places ended up having to alter their policies as a result of recent decisions, but some took the opportunity to get clever. Some, like Yahoo, even used it as a distraction to roll out new data collection tools and associations. Some, hopefully like EVGA, just got caught in the middle and uploaded a poor policy in a rush. If you didn't directly check the boxes, you're probably fine, but you'll want to keep an eye out in case something changes. I'd probably keep an eye on various inboxes and spam folders, just in case an update happens.
I'll look into whether this section needs to be modified. It may take a week or two if there will be changes. Generally, many terms and conditions across a company's services include a clause that the company reserves the right to make changes to the policy, and a member's continued usage of the services after any changes constitutes acceptance of the new terms. This is generally what the acceptance tries to highlight. I can understand if it might seem a bit curt in conveying that in once sentence, and could be reworded to seem less like a pair of manacles and more like a reminder that members should carefully review terms and conditions from time to time. Regarding spam and other mailing, please notify us immediately if you receive communications that you don't expect to receive. Those things we take very seriously.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 10:58:38
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EVGATech_LeeM
respectX
Nozler @respect I saw that twice didn't agree to it and then saw it again for some reason, sure hope I didn't the second time. :/
I've seen that happen; most notably on Yahoo recently. In that particular case, they just went on and did their thing anyway. I caught them skimming mail in accordance with their new policies just last week... Most places ended up having to alter their policies as a result of recent decisions, but some took the opportunity to get clever. Some, like Yahoo, even used it as a distraction to roll out new data collection tools and associations. Some, hopefully like EVGA, just got caught in the middle and uploaded a poor policy in a rush. If you didn't directly check the boxes, you're probably fine, but you'll want to keep an eye out in case something changes. I'd probably keep an eye on various inboxes and spam folders, just in case an update happens.
I'll look into whether this section needs to be modified. It may take a week or two if there will be changes. Generally, many terms and conditions across a company's services include a clause that the company reserves the right to make changes to the policy, and a member's continued usage of the services after any changes constitutes acceptance of the new terms. This is generally what the acceptance tries to highlight. I can understand if it might seem a bit curt in conveying that in once sentence, and could be reworded to seem less like a pair of manacles and more like a reminder that members should carefully review terms and conditions from time to time. Regarding spam and other mailing, please notify us immediately if you receive communications that you don't expect to receive. Those things we take very seriously.
Cool. The language within the actual privacy obviates the enforceability of quite a bit of the document, as well. They're going to want to sort that out. Language more appropriate to "terms updates" and those initial checkmarks should point out that you are not required to be bound to them, but may have to approve new changes for continued use of certain EVGA products and services. That kind of sucks sometimes, but it's legally solid and understandable to anyone with a touch of reasoning ability. Likewise, user access to collected data can no longer be behind an "agreement wall" in the European Union. I'm almost positive that the "wall" was in no way intentional. A hyperlink reference to company policies and instructions regarding such use, placed under the selection description, will allow legally sufficient advisement. What they've got just doesn't fly in the US, and a few European nations with which I'm familiar. It makes them a wide open target, and these days that's just asking for trouble. It's a bad era to have bad paperwork. I hope they get it sorted, because it could end up losing them an entire production season if such an obvious oversight in the most pedestrian of contracts ruffles Nvidia feathers; given their business model directly involves handling extremely valuable unprotected IP. Similar entities in the industry have pulled out of more for less. The can cite breach of contract and security policy, and redirect production resources and sensitive IP related to the next run to a different entity entirely while policies are reviewed. Happens all the time. Edit: Corrected an obvious oversight in my own post... LOL
post edited by respectX - 2018/06/11 11:02:05
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EVGA_Lee
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 11:03:39
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respectX Likewise, user access to collected data can no longer be behind an "agreement wall" in the European Union. I'm almost positive that the "wall" was in no way intentional.
If you're referring to the "My Data" page, this is in the process of being exempted from agreeing to the new terms and conditions (likely a temporary oversight), and will be added to our Privacy Terms in the relatively near future.
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 13:12:08
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respectX I searched for EVGA customer service countless ways earlier to no avail. All lead me right to that form aside from the forum. Now I've done it again, and it's in big, bold letters at the top of the search results. Odd.
I got stuck on this after reading through the entire thread. Could you honestly not find the customer service contact information? I havent filled in any form of user agreement informaion in years, and it allows me to obtain all of the customer service information unhindered, not to mention the incredible resource called google, which exposes all of the contact information without having to access any portion of evga’s webpage or user agreements.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 17:31:42
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the_Scarlet_one
respectX I searched for EVGA customer service countless ways earlier to no avail. All lead me right to that form aside from the forum. Now I've done it again, and it's in big, bold letters at the top of the search results. Odd.
I got stuck on this after reading through the entire thread.
Could you honestly not find the customer service contact information? I havent filled in any form of user agreement informaion in years, and it allows me to obtain all of the customer service information unhindered, not to mention the incredible resource called google, which exposes all of the contact information without having to access any portion of evga’s webpage or user agreements.
It must have been some manner of hiccup, or they were updating something. No browser would pull it up; only redirects to the "agree to enter the account" page. Had to have been some kind of coincidental error, because when it did show up, it was blatantly obvious. No phone number, no e-mail address... Nothing. Then, all of a sudden, it was there. Could be someone just forgot during the updates and picked up on the thread. Things don't get fixed unless someone points out problems, after all.
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/11 17:38:12
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EVGATech_LeeM
respectX Likewise, user access to collected data can no longer be behind an "agreement wall" in the European Union. I'm almost positive that the "wall" was in no way intentional.
If you're referring to the "My Data" page, this is in the process of being exempted from agreeing to the new terms and conditions (likely a temporary oversight), and will be added to our Privacy Terms in the relatively near future.
I think that's what's happening. They had to toss some stuff up there to comply, but didn't have time to fully sort out the language and order of presentation. I've never seen EVGA take that road, so it could all simply be an oversight in the current confusion, or an attempted update that hiccuped in progress. It almost reads as if it was translated a few times, and then exported from one word processor into another. Got to stick to Wordperfect for legal stuff. It's industry standard. Word isn't set up for it, and if the documents were passed between the two before upload... Yeah, they certainly could have been been chopped to pieces in the conversion. I expect they'll cure it all soon once the notification climbs far enough up the ladder.
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Kronos-HedgeHog
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/18 17:53:48
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So I wasn't the only one really bugged out from the new policies? To be more precise, there are two main things that I don't like at all: First: [* All fields (except address 2) are required to update] - This is the incipit of the My Profile new ToS & PP agreement page. But at the same time, from your own Privacy Policy we can read: [6 - Usage of personal dataIn accordance with the principle of data avoidance and data economy, we only collect personal data on our website when it is either required for your desired purpose, we are obligated to do so due to legal regulations or contracts, if we have a legitimate interest and/or if you voluntarily give us your consent.]I have never bought something from your store, always bought from reseller (deliver times would be a hell, I live in Italy and your closest European Support & Selling center appears to be in Germany), I have never needed EVGA's apparently legendary/shiny RMA support and, until these days, I never needed any Support at all from EVGA. But with the ToS & PP update (and still before, if I recall correctly) my address and my phone number are mandatory in order to use ANY service on this site. I still don't understand why, since EVGA own Privacy Policy for Registering products and Softwares (in order to obtain online support) states that my IP, my Name and my email should suffice. Sounds like cognitive dissonance. Second: [By using EVGA.com's Website and its services, you agree to be bound by the Terms of Use. We may update and modify these Terms of Use from time to time, and by continuing to use the site after the posting of a modification, you accept the modification. If you object to any terms and conditions of the Terms of Use at anytime, you should immediately discontinue use of the site.] - This is the incipit of EVGA Terms of Use. Just this summons a couple of problems. What does "and by continuing to use the site after the posting of a modification, you accept the modification?". I have to login to my account, then a popup shows and says "There are some modification. Go get 'em boys"? Does my login attempt count as "continuing to use"? Does my attemt to read those modification count as "continuing to use"? I'll actually have an "I agree" button? Or it means that the data collected BEFORE an attempt would be available for EVGA to use at its own discrection? How do I "discontinue to use" the site? I have to delete my account? Simply stop logging in? It is vague to say the least. Considering (at least for my experience) that accessing this website is mainly for need, I'd really like to know what is intended for "use". Then EVGA repeats the concept in the My Profile new ToS & PP agreement page, but in a different form: [Yes, I accept that EVGA may periodically update its Privacy Policy and Terms of Use, and agree to be bound by those changes.]This doesn't make any sense, since it's both different from the statement in the ToS, and since in the My Profile ToS and PP agreement page says explicitly: [By creating an account at EVGA.com, I affirm that I have read, understood, and accept EVGA's Privacy Policy and EVGA's Terms of Use.]No words are spent on the third (mandatory) entry. And I've actually tried to accept just the ToS and PP, but it still refuses to accept it as valid. It wants all the three agreement to be selected. I'm not inclined to do that. Bonus: On my first try, I was mostly focused on the data update rather than the ToS and PP (always asking myself why the damn they'd need my addres and phone number), and so I updated my e-mail too. Those data updates, as for my new e-mail, were actually saved. My two-out-of-three agreements were not. So, why would them actually save those updates? Sounds even more bad if you think that all contact/support/tickets were disabled (or better, like respectX noted, "Blocked under an agreement wall"), but the updated data was "perfectly welcome". I get that it could have been done in a hurry, but these two factors are quite buggy (in both sense: bothersome and not-so-well-implemented) and gives the user an exaggerated amount of doubts. From a freshman user point-of-view (like mine), this could easily sound as there were two people writing these documents. The first one that sounded like a user's guardian angel [ "I'll ask their address IF I have to send them something!"] and a devil's dataBOT [ "ALL YOUR DATA ARE BELONG TO US"]. I can understand, from a website maintenance and a corporation level, how much easier would it be to actually have an auto-agreement. EVGA just rolls out a ToS & PP update to avoid sanctions, then elaborate an updated nice & user friendly & user oriented version of the same thing. But the main thing is: I don't HAVE to rely on trust. EVGA doesn't need that third entry, as I don't (and actually CAN'T) have to accept future changes without even knowing what EVGA's intentions are on the matter. For all I know, it could be an update followed up by a "downdate". Think about it, if EVGA's going to re-roll the old ToS & PP (or a Google-like one), you couldn't stop them. You already agreed. And even if EVGA posted "their intentions", that wouldn't stop them from actually lying their way out. Form the ToS you can read: [EVGA Corporation and its employees do not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of the information presented on our site. The site may include views, opinions and recommendations of numerous individuals and non-identified entities. EVGA Corporation does not endorse the views, advocate the purchase or sale of any good or service.]I know that's not nice to doubt this much, especially considering the seemingly shiny reputations of EVGA RMA & Support. But I am extremely skeptical, and I'd prefer their action to speak for them. If someone is asking me to "trust him", that's the moment when I'm starting to be concerned and doubtful (even more than before). If EVGA rolls out a new ToS & PP, they could simply ask me again to accept. Afraid of lazy customers? Make a big "I Agree to all new slight changes", near the links of the new documents. If I'm lazy, I'll agree straight away. If I'm skeptical, I'll read them thoroughly and then choose one by one what I will accept and what not. Like respectX, I found myself in a time-critical matter. I've got the option to buy something on extra sale (NVMe SSD), but I'll need to go full UEFI. But no agreement, no UEFI firmware for my VGA. I've already written a mail to the Europe support contact available on this site, hoping to have not addressed/bothered the wrong person on the matter (for the ToS & PP nonsense), and I've already contacted europe support asking for the UEFI Firmware on my already registered VGA (6 years ago), but still no answer from both. I'll cross my fingers and wait, but until now it's not the fairtest situation, waiting for an answer while observing the price deal going up and down. I hope to have brought a little insight on my doubts and on what (on my opionion) are the main problem. Any comment/info is greatly appreciated. [Edit: typos =P ]
post edited by Kronos-HedgeHog - 2018/06/18 17:56:39
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respectX
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/18 22:26:53
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That's part of the problem, actually. The document is self-defeating and doesn't look good for them. In that industry, it's a serious issue. I genuinely believe it was not intentional, and I'm willing to roll with that until shown otherwise. Thankfully, the concerns appear to have been sent up the chain to a degree. Hopefully it reaches their legal team for evaluation soon. This was obviously not prepared entirely internally, and couldn't be anyway. They do have to integrate intermediary parties, but the assembly just fell apart. I think we're seeing check boxes for another document that was never fielded.
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EVGA_Lee
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/20 10:07:24
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For those still following, the third checkbox regarding acceptance of future terms has been removed. You now only need to accept the terms of the Privacy Policy and the Terms of Use to sign up for an account or confirm acceptance of the new policies following the GDPR updates.
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rjohnson11
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/20 10:16:13
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EVGATech_LeeM For those still following, the third checkbox regarding acceptance of future terms has been removed. You now only need to accept the terms of the Privacy Policy and the Terms of Use to sign up for an account or confirm acceptance of the new policies following the GDPR updates.
Thanks for the update Lee
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bdary
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Re: Not happy with new terms of service and privacy policy
2018/06/20 10:56:28
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EVGATech_LeeM For those still following, the third checkbox regarding acceptance of future terms has been removed. You now only need to accept the terms of the Privacy Policy and the Terms of Use to sign up for an account or confirm acceptance of the new policies following the GDPR updates.
Thanks...
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