lehpron
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/03 13:41:16
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HeavyHemiI'm quite sure others have thought of it. In regards to your thoughts do you have any evidence this is 'fake news' beyond what you've thought? The link to the source, JonPeddle Research, flat out says, "Over three million add-in boards (AIBs) were sold to cryptocurrency miners worth $776 million in 2017. AMD was the primary benefactor of those sales." The problem you should have with this is no supporting source, this is their conclusion but those numbers aren't presented. Tables in blue are marketshare numbers for desktop and laptop that don't separate which kinds of cards or what they are used for-- despite the title in red suggesting the article is about the impact of cryptocurrency in a declining market. Like I said, retailers can't tell what are their customers' purchase intentions even with limits in place, so where is JPR's conclusion coming from? Well that may be buried in the 82-page market report they are asking $2500 for, something most PC enthusiasts websites won't pay for, so they will assume the meaning of or associate whatever they like because their readers don't ask those types of questions. Might as well read this older JPR assesment of the impact of Cryptomining on AIB graphics in 2015, back then the estimate was 4.6 million sold to miners and their methodology does paint a curious picture for what they think will happen in Q4 2017, which is about now. Still, back in Q1 2015, there wasn't as much screaming and crying over high prices because AMD and nVidia were keeping up, but they aren't right now. That's my point, I'm saying AMD and nVidia are holding back shipments, likely because of their resources or manufacturing. Either way, it artificially raises prices since cryptomining demand comes off as a coincidence to scapegoat, with less sold this past quarter than two years ago. HeavyHemi I'm not quite sure why you're so aggressive against it being a contributor...do you mine? Not being convinced the 3 million sold "were solely due to mining" doesn't make me aggressive, why are you being defensive over my criticism? I've never understood regular upgrades just to play a game to begin with, nothing to do with crypto. FWIW, I tried to mine Ethereum on my 1080 Ti, pulled out $80 in a month, paid $55 in electricity because where I live it's $0.47 per kWhr. $25 profit per month is a joke, frankly; but not enough to make me jump on the bandwagon to scapegoat cryptocurrency miners for not playing the latest games all pretty.
post edited by lehpron - 2018/03/03 14:13:01
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wmmills
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/04 19:04:22
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Ok, lets look at it like this..... before Cryptocurrency and scalping for Crypto did we have enough supply to go around for the demand there was? YES! Probably for at least 99% of the time. Argument over. :)
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/04 19:28:34
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wmmills Ok, lets look at it like this..... before Cryptocurrency and scalping for Crypto did we have enough supply to go around for the demand there was? YES! Probably for at least 99% of the time. Argument over. :)
Ha! If only it were so simple. There is a lot more at play including a shortage of components, a limited number of manufacturing facilities capable of manufacturing to this level under high demand and workload shared by multiple clients in competing and non-competing market space, an ever-increasing manufacturing complexity, and manufacturing shutdowns for upgrading and starting the next level of manufacturing complexity.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/03/04 19:40:14
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KLEYBA
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/04 20:44:26
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Miners severely hurt our PC gaming market. In 14 yrs of PC gaming, I never seen this happen
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XrayMan
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/04 23:06:06
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The title say's it all. I'm not surprised though.
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lehpron
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 08:44:24
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KLEYBA Miners severely hurt our PC gaming market.
No, miners may be putting the DIY aspect under threat, but it will never affect PC gaming. It isn't like the majority of PC gamers buy parts (let alone mid-range on up), they go the Dell or Alienware route, i.e pre-builts. OEMs have contracts with AMD/nVidia are separate from retailer contracts. Miners wouldn't go out of their way to grab a bunch of pre-builds just to gut out the graphics card, it's waste of money; DIYers could replace a few and keep the rest. It's inconvenient, sure, but what is anyone here really complaining about? Some of you guys don't want to get a pre-built PC just so you can get the graphics card you want. Don't talk about miners ruining the market if you're not doing whatever it takes to play a game.
post edited by lehpron - 2018/03/05 09:07:00
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 09:19:15
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lehpron
KLEYBA Miners severely hurt our PC gaming market.
No, miners may be putting the DIY aspect under threat, but it will never affect PC gaming. It isn't like the majority of PC gamers buy parts (let alone mid-range on up), they go the Dell or Alienware route, i.e pre-builts. OEMs have contracts with AMD/nVidia are separate from retailer contracts.
Miners wouldn't go out of their way to grab a bunch of pre-builds just to gut out the graphics card, it's waste of money; DIYers could replace a few and keep the rest.
It's inconvenient, sure, but what is anyone here really complaining about? Some of you guys don't want to get a pre-built PC just so you can get the graphics card you want. Don't talk about miners ruining the market if you're not doing whatever it takes to play a game.
+1 I think it is also funny that it is all about " them" ruining " our" market. As I already said, I don't think miners have had a big effect on the "gaming" card market; and think that much more of the shortage has to do with the other things usually mentioned in hushed voices. But, even if we -- falsely, in my opinion -- assume that miners are ruining the "gaming" card market, that is immediately assuming that the market rightly belongs to gamers in the first place. Really, it is a shared video card market available to anyone for any reason, subject to availability, dependent on capitalization, and priced in the market based on demand. Always has been; even in the "gamer" card hay day.
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transdogmifier
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 09:40:01
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I'm certainly not a fan of the shortages now, as I just started getting paid and want to build a new machine (had to sell my old one to make ends meet)...but I'm not paying double for a GPU... So no building for me. Crypto miners or not, and I'm not sure, this shortage sucks. big time.
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knightsilver
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 10:59:40
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$300+ for a 1050 $500+ for a 1060 $1K+ for a 1080 Is pure horsecrap, and l can see Nvidia release the 2080's at over $1K, just to milk the current market.......
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KLEYBA
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 16:27:15
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Yep, it wasn't like this before. Never. Until the miners came in. Who here can recall any other time when there was a world wide shortage and extreme price gouging?
Miners...
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 17:14:31
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KLEYBA Yep, it wasn't like this before. Never. Until the miners came in. Who here can recall any other time when there was a world wide shortage and extreme price gouging?
Miners...
Classic scapegoat methodology. Everything is easier to justify once you establish a foe.
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ILikeBeans
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 17:56:24
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Wow, talk about a lench mob stink'in miners... give me all your GPU's or else.
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Bruno747
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/05 17:57:41
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So please explain something I don't understand with this. Honestly I have a hard time believing the GPU constraints.
I keep hearing people talk about this dram shortage. But I have never seen a time where so many ram and ssd models have released. On top of that I never seem to actually see a shortage of ram, ssds, or even nvme drives. Everything seems to be totally in stock unless there is a sale that makes the price a little less ludicrous. Even phones which supposedly are part of the major drag on the market seem to have zero issues being available.
For that matter, other than new models have console jacked their prices? Some of these graphics cards have been marked up $100 by the aib partner. It's been speculated that this is related to dram increases and wafer costs going up. But if that's the truth then console should be in short supply or going up in price as well right?
I'm sure there are pieces I'm missing but I find it hard to accept that a single mid-range gpu can see a 20% plus price increase, not gouge, increase per the aib msrp, from supposed hardware cost increases but few other things aside from actual ram has gone up in the same fashion.
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Nereus
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KLEYBA
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/06 12:40:55
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Nereus
I love photoshop
Yes it's what I been saying. Miners have hurt our hobby and next they are going after our... RGB!!!
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KLEYBA
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/06 12:42:03
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Miners want our rgb so that can show off the GPUs that they stole from us
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Nereus
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/06 12:55:33
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KLEYBA Miners want our rgb so that can show off the GPUs that they stole from us
Yes ^ that, totally.
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QuintLeo
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/03/22 03:14:24
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ty_ger07
It's based on a research group's findings. They do it for a living. Either you trust them or you don't. Exact numbers are impossible, but approximations can be close.
Total video card sales have been approximately 10 to 15 million per quarter. Again, an approximation.
I've seen figures quoted on total sales combined for AMD and Nvidia as a bit over 50 million for all of 2017. AMD sold AT LEAST 4 million cards that year to ETH miners alone and likely 6-8 million for the year, Nvidia may have sold as many as 3 million cards TOTAL to all miners (my own estimate is "more likely 2 million total" and only a small number of that to ETH miners mostly in 2Q 2017 when AMD pricing on Polaris cards pushed up into bottom-end 1080 and high-end 1070 range). This is based on known hashrate numbers for the "best" cards for each coin, and TOTAL NETWORK HASHRATE growth for the "large number of GPUs needed to support that hashrate" coins. That 3 million number is just WRONG, and makes me question anything that "research group" comes up with. AMD should be happy for the SHORT TERM with mining, a big chunk of their market share came from mining in 2017 - but I can understand their long-term worries about that market after 2014 and the "Litecoin GPU mining crash".
post edited by QuintLeo - 2018/03/22 03:16:59
Now that vorsholk has stopped his abuse, I'm returning to folding. I no longer MOO due to abuses by certain "whales" in the Gridcoin community - so I now work the Distributed.net project directly again.
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SneakyBrian
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/09 21:57:48
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Now there will be a flood of people trying to get rid of their gpus once first delivery of bitmains new antminer
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/10 03:10:34
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SneakyBrian Now there will be a flood of people trying to get rid of their gpus once first delivery of bitmains new antminer
I don't think that there will be much of a flood of people trying to sell their mining GPUs since there wasn't much of a flood of mining GPU purchasers in the first place. An estimated 3 million in 2017 is only a small percentage of the total. The flood of gamers selling to save up for an upgrade to the next generation -- which happens at the end of every generation -- should be much larger.
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QuintLeo
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/10 11:44:09
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SneakyBrian Now there will be a flood of people trying to get rid of their gpus once first delivery of bitmains new antminer
The Bitmain E3 is LESS efficient than some well-tuned 6 card GPU rigs, and the current price on it makes it a MUCH higher risk to never pay for itself before Ethereum goes full Proof of Stake and makes it bloody near worthless. 180 Mhash at 800 watts per the published specs, NOT SHIPPING 'TILL MID JULY - vs existing 6-card AMD rigs that can pull 170-180 Mhash (depending on the specific cards) for 750-800 watts, or 6-card 1070 rigs that can pull 185-190 Mhash for 700-750 watts. At $800 for the FIRST batch it was a marginal risk (once the ETH developers stated they're not going to change their algorithm due to the E3), at $1800 for the second batch it is a VERY BAD risk of never paying for itself. All of the ethash coins COMBINED other than Ethereum itself account for perhaps 10% of the total network hashrate of Ethereum, and there are rumors that some of those OTHER coins may "fork" to change their algorithm at some point which would just make the E3 even less worthwhile - and the current dev timetable on the move of ETH to FULL proof of stake is early to middle of next year (they have early Proof of Stake code running on their testnet NOW, but they plan to start out with a "hybrid" option that is 1% POS 99% Proof of Work for testing for a few months before they move to full POS).
Now that vorsholk has stopped his abuse, I'm returning to folding. I no longer MOO due to abuses by certain "whales" in the Gridcoin community - so I now work the Distributed.net project directly again.
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Brad_Hawthorne
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/10 13:53:41
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ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
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quadlatte
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/10 22:50:59
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Brad_Hawthorne ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
I will admit that seeing Bitcoin down 65% since December bring a tiny grin, it always has been and always will be hacker currency
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QuintLeo
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 08:05:31
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Brad_Hawthorne ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
Why do the ignorant so often ASSUME that miners push their cards hard? Hint - max Ethereum hashrate is obtained from most cards used to mine Ethereum at 70% OR LESS of "design TDP", normally using undervolting and UNDERclocking, because it's a lot more efficient to do so. Most other cryptocoins that are mined with GPUs are ALSO more efficient to mine at 60-70% of the card's "design TDP", and usually even LOWER on "higher-than-normal TDP" cards like the EVGA FTW models. Contrast this with the common gamer sites that show how to overvolt and overclock cards up to their limits for max framerate, and almost EVERY gaming benchmark that includes "overclocked" benchmarks.
Now that vorsholk has stopped his abuse, I'm returning to folding. I no longer MOO due to abuses by certain "whales" in the Gridcoin community - so I now work the Distributed.net project directly again.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 09:57:31
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QuintLeo
Brad_Hawthorne ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
Why do the ignorant so often ASSUME that miners push their cards hard? Hint - max Ethereum hashrate is obtained from most cards used to mine Ethereum at 70% OR LESS of "design TDP", normally using undervolting and UNDERclocking, because it's a lot more efficient to do so. Most other cryptocoins that are mined with GPUs are ALSO more efficient to mine at 60-70% of the card's "design TDP", and usually even LOWER on "higher-than-normal TDP" cards like the EVGA FTW models. Contrast this with the common gamer sites that show how to overvolt and overclock cards up to their limits for max framerate, and almost EVERY gaming benchmark that includes "overclocked" benchmarks.
Agreed. I have replied similar to those types of comments in the past. I would rather purchase a "burned" up crypto card instead of some random gamer's/overclocker's card. The crypto card may have been working hard for a longer duration, but the gamer/overclocker card was almost certainly working harder for shorter durations; with a much greater chance that it was outright abused. Additionally, the gamer/overclocker card has many more thermal cycles at a much greater magnitude between thermal cycle peaks and valleys. As long as a certain amplitude of heat isn't exceeded, it is often the thermal cycles and magnitude of the thermal cycles which kill electrical components, instead.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/04/11 10:09:50
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the_Scarlet_one
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 10:05:28
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All gamers overclock. All miners kill their cards.
Both completely incorrect statements, although they may be true about some gamers and some miners.
Not every gamer overclocks or overvolts, and you better believe not every miner tunes their card to run at 70%
If you believe either of those are definite, you are smoking something illegal. No need for bold blanket statements either way.
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ty_ger07
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 10:12:24
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the_Scarlet_one No need for bold blanket statements either way.
And the thermal cycles? That is a blanket statement? Do you know a gamer who plays games 24/7 for 365 days? It absolutely is true that a gamer/overclocker creates many more video card thermal cycles. Operating constantly at 75 celsius is much better than operating up and down from 20 celsius to 75 celsius over and over again. Thermal cycles are the cause of the classic "I don't know what happened. It was working fine the last time I used it." Additionally, it is quite easy to prove, based on the accounts of those who choose to represent themselves on the internet, the majority of "miners" do undervolt/underclock their video cards. It's based on simple economics; the thing which drove them to mine in the first place. The majority of gamers may not overvolt/overclock, but evidence on the internet, based on those who choose to represent themselves, shows that the majority of gamers will use either stock voltage/frequency OR increase voltage/frequency. Certainly the majority of gamers do not undervolt/underclock their video cards. Certainly there are trends to support what QuintLeo stated.
post edited by ty_ger07 - 2018/04/11 10:26:32
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QuintLeo
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 13:31:18
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The absolute worst thing you can do to any electrical or electronic device is to turn it on. The second worst thing is to turn it off. I'm not counting deliberate abuse in those statements like "drop it into salt water" or "hit it with a 20 pound sledge hammer", though, I'm talking normal operations. Before the "green" movement got powerful, it was common for large companies to say "leave your computer on when you go home at night" because it reduced their cost to repair/replace machines more than the cost of the electric to keep them running cost. I do agree that not ALL gamers overclock (it might not even be a majority), and not all miners run their cards at 70% TDP or less - but it is COMMON in both cases and as stated miners have ECONOMIC reasons to run their cards at efficient settings (if not at THE most economic, at least somewhere in the ballpark) while gamers have performance and sometimes economic reasons to want to overclock (can't afford a better card, so max out the card you CAN afford) so the TENDENCY is there. You don't see gaming sites focusing on "most efficient card settings" nor do you see mining sites focusing on "max overclocking" for good reasons. I am certain that operators of LARGE FARMS (most of which don't hang out on mining forums) are MORE likely to run their cards at efficient settings, as they have the largest incentive to do so and the time to set their rigs up that way (then CLONE the setups over and over and over....)
Now that vorsholk has stopped his abuse, I'm returning to folding. I no longer MOO due to abuses by certain "whales" in the Gridcoin community - so I now work the Distributed.net project directly again.
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Brad_Hawthorne
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 14:10:07
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QuintLeo
Brad_Hawthorne ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
Why do the ignorant so often ASSUME that miners push their cards hard? Hint - max Ethereum hashrate is obtained from most cards used to mine Ethereum at 70% OR LESS of "design TDP", normally using undervolting and UNDERclocking, because it's a lot more efficient to do so. Most other cryptocoins that are mined with GPUs are ALSO more efficient to mine at 60-70% of the card's "design TDP", and usually even LOWER on "higher-than-normal TDP" cards like the EVGA FTW models. Contrast this with the common gamer sites that show how to overvolt and overclock cards up to their limits for max framerate, and almost EVERY gaming benchmark that includes "overclocked" benchmarks.
It's all about duty cycle, not OC. Consumer electronics are not designed for 24/7 duty cycle. It's low hanging fruit to claim that an opinion you don't agree with is "ignorant". I suppose at least there is merit that you're not being hysterical in your answer. That's a plus.
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kram36
The Destroyer
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Re: Cryptocurrency miners bought 3 million graphics cards worth $776 million in 2017
2018/04/11 16:40:09
(permalink)
Brad_Hawthorne
QuintLeo
Brad_Hawthorne ebay is going to be a wasteland of overpriced, burnt up cards in 2019.
Why do the ignorant so often ASSUME that miners push their cards hard? Hint - max Ethereum hashrate is obtained from most cards used to mine Ethereum at 70% OR LESS of "design TDP", normally using undervolting and UNDERclocking, because it's a lot more efficient to do so. Most other cryptocoins that are mined with GPUs are ALSO more efficient to mine at 60-70% of the card's "design TDP", and usually even LOWER on "higher-than-normal TDP" cards like the EVGA FTW models. Contrast this with the common gamer sites that show how to overvolt and overclock cards up to their limits for max framerate, and almost EVERY gaming benchmark that includes "overclocked" benchmarks.
It's all about duty cycle, not OC. Consumer electronics are not designed for 24/7 duty cycle. It's low hanging fruit to claim that an opinion you don't agree with is "ignorant". I suppose at least there is merit that you're not being hysterical in your answer. That's a plus.
I have been folding for over a decade now and my cards run 24/7 and overclocked. How many video cards have I lost to folding? ZERO. How many video cards have I lost that I only game or run benchmarks on? ONE. I would not hesitate to buy are video card from a smart miner as they do under volt them and most mining algorithms will mine just as good with the gpu speed lowered.
post edited by kram36 - 2018/04/11 17:10:37
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