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Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K

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FM3001
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2017/07/02 18:40:05 (permalink)
Hello.
Currently building up a system with the Z270 FTW K, Kaby Lake i7 - 7700K with liquid cooling, 32GB Ram to start, Adaptec SAS controller and Seagate 15K SAS HDD (this may change to an SSD). Haven't decided on Graphics yet (was originally an ATI puke). I want to run Windows 7 64bit (don't like Windows 10). EVGA does not seem to officially support Windows 7 especially because MS wants it dead. We still seem to be in a gray area with MS on Win 7 vs Kaby Lake even though they have said they will not support it. It seems USB 3.0 drivers are available from what I have seen on this board. The question is am I going to be able to do this?
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    wrtipton
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/02 22:19:09 (permalink)
    I was running Win7 64 bit with the Intel driver...I believe thier eXtensible host controller works fine. Windows 7 will do security updates until 2020 and most raid controllers drivers are built in ( most have been around for a few years and load third own BIOS anyways) You should be good to go...If you want to run a NVMe SSD drive for your windows 7  that may be a little trickier but doable 
     
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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/19 06:32:15 (permalink)
    Hello.
         OK (3 weeks later). System is all put together. Everything works except I can't get an operating system to load. The problems I am having are all related to the SAS controller and it's drive. I was able to update the controllers bios using FedoraMediaWriter (formally Live USB Creator) to create a bootable USB using an *.iso version of the Adaptec/Microsemi MSM (Maxview Storage Manager). This is also thanks to EVGA's excellent UEFI BIOS that allows me to easily change boot sources.
         The SAS Controller does not see the drive. I ordered another drive to verify if I have a DOA drive or not but now I see both get warm so they are working (and I now own another D drive I didn't need!). In traditional Ultra 320 parallel SCSI the controller will see the drives write off with no operating system. The controller controls the drives. You can format drives and everything from the controller. With this SAS (and it is still similar to original SCSI) it says "no boot drive found", no INT 13 drive found" so BIOS not installed. From Microsemi documentation it says this is normal if the system finds no bootable drives? So I am going with that and trying to follow the controllers installation instructions. That is loading the controllers driver while loading a new operating system. I can't find my 64 bit windows 7 disk so I am trying it with a 32 bit disk. Tried to boot from the Sata DVD drive with a bootable 32 bit win 7 disk - won't work. It goes right past it to EVGA's excellent BIOS screen. So I copied the disk to a formatted USB drive (along with the controller drivers) and of course I told the Mboard to boot to USB (I know booting to USB works from above) but it goes right past that too?
        Is it that I can't use 32 bit at all? Kaby Lake actually blocks Win 7 from loading at all even though I have it enabled in the EVGA BIOS? I tried to change the Mboard bios from UEFI to Legacy and then I was locked out of it so I had to reset the CMOS (handy option). I am lost. Thank you.
    #3
    ypsylon
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/19 07:50:58 (permalink)
    Be vary of RAID controllers on newer chipsets (all which are pure UEFI). There is no guarantee whatsoever from any of the vendors that RAID/HBA card will work properly. Most consumer boards don't support Int15 which is required for normal operation. Only server grade chipsets are supported like e.g. C6xx family. 
     
    I felt this rubbish myself when 7 series outright refused to work, nobody cared about fix. 6 series also for most part didn't worked properly on X99. 8 series Adaptecs work on X99 100%, I know that most of LSI cards are trouble free. I haven't got a clue about Z270 tho, but like I've said be very vary of RAID controllers on UEFI powered consumer boards. Old school BIOS retained irq, int and all addressing stuff in same space for decades. With "invention" of UEFI, outside basic ground work supplied by Intel (or AMD) there are NO rules. Every UEFI detection procedure is different across the range. What will work on EVGA may or may not work on other vendors boards. It's that stupid. No other word for it.
     
    "No int13 drive found" is normal in two cases:
     
    1. You haven't defined any arrays on the controller (it doesn't matter if volume is bootable or not)
    2. Using RAID controller in HBA mode and in this mode you can't create Int13 volumes - all drives are detected as a singular devices, like using ordinary SATA ports off the motherboard.
     
    My current main workstation running in HBA mode (drive pool as RAID is by now totally archaic) and I get "no int13 drive found - bios not installed" every time when PC is POSTing. 
     
    32b driver won't work on 64b system. I don't know if KL is limited only to 64b, but 32b is by now prehistoric. Monitoring suite from Adaptec requires about 800MB-1GB of RAM just to run in the background. Accommodating this inside 32b system is not possible. 
     
    If you planning to install OS on normal SSD (recommended) please remove everything from the system except SSD and CD drive. You can install controller later. I don't recommend installing RAID card during OS installation process. Sometimes controller forces itself on booting process and you'll end in world of pain. When system is installed and running controller can't takeover Windows Boot Manager.
    post edited by ypsylon - 2017/07/20 05:00:51

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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/20 21:04:49 (permalink)
    Finally figured out the correct way to create a bootable USB for 64 bit win 7 in the UEFI environment and it does work. But a couple of screens in I get the dreaded "A required CD/DVD device driver is missing" message. Of course I don't know what it is looking for. Apparently this is a well known problem with the Win 7 installer. Most fix it by going back to the welcome screen moving the flash drive to a different port and continuing with the install. But that isn't working for me. Another idea is to disable USB 3.0 in the UEFI since there is no native support for it in Win 7. But the board only lets me disable, not allow me to limit the port to USB 2. I need the ports so I can't shut them down? One problem at a time......
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    ypsylon
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/20 23:12:02 (permalink)
    Well installing Win7 from USB pendrive is potential minefield. I got bored with all the hassle. Returned to good old DVD, plug it for 10-15 minutes, all goes smoothly. Problem solved. 

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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/21 21:55:25 (permalink)
    Tried everything. Move USB drive around, only use USB 2 ports, disable USB 3, make sure AHCI/RAID is set to AHCI, then tried putting drivers on the drive and tell windows about them (the installer must be blind?).... Ya I am going to try that. I have a good ISO and I need to burn a bootable DVD with it. back to work....
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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/27 21:37:32 (permalink)
    Well after learning how to extract the CD key from one of my other win 7 systems, giving Microsoft the key in exchange for a Win 7 64 *.iso download and learning how to burn an *.iso DVD with IMGBurn I managed to replace my lost 64 bit DVD.
     
    Now the original problem I had with all of this is not being able to get the controller to work. So I went out and got a SATA drive hoping to use it to load an OS on the SAS drive.
     
    The disc does get past all the earlier problems I had with the USB. But once you load the Win 7 xHCI USB 3 driver I lose all USB functionality including the mouse and keyboard. That leaves me no choice but to reinstall. I tried the USB 2 headers and 3 different drivers. Is there not any other way to keep at least the keyboard working? Seriously considering a retail Windows 10.
     
    Meanwhile I got with Adaptec/Microsemi support and they are replacing the controller. That problem is at the BIOS/UEFI level and has nothing to do with the operating system. Looked at LSI controllers - very similar. If Adaptec was not sending me another board and refunded instead I would probably get the LSI 9300-4i. New builds are tough.
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    ypsylon
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/27 23:44:30 (permalink)
    First wait for controller replacement.
     
    As for USB drivers. USB2 is supported by default even in safe mode. There are no special drivers for Legacy USB standards (if motherboard BIOS supports Legacy USB keep it enabled always). USB3 during installation is hit and miss with W7. Mostly miss. There is no point with forcing USB3 installation, when USB2 works perfectly well and it is faster than DVD anyway. On the other hand if you have DVD I see no reason to waste time with USB installation anyway.
     
    Considering what problem you experiencing it only proves that UEFI is not up to the challenge. On the other hand why you persist with SAS HDD drive as OS drive? You'll notice absolutely zero improvement over SATA HDD (unless you have OS drive encrypted or something). Clean install is always required when you changing the medium. 
     
    Yeah new builds are sometimes tough nut to crack. Especially when you throw a lot of stuff at once. One of the things I've learned by now. One SSD as OS and then add everything piece-meal. Had way too many problems in the past and by now I got really tired of this. If something goes wrong now I instantly know what is at fault.

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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/28 09:31:50 (permalink)
    I am pushing SAS for 3 reasons. One is 12Gb/s I/O speed, two is MTBF an order of magnitude better than SATA, and three; downward compatibility with SATA. I also like the controllers ability to perform independent operations on and management of many drives from it's own BIOS.
     
    The controller has a legacy Ctrl-A BIOS that you can use to manage drives like old SCSI but it also has a UEFI mode which I hope might work when I get the new one.
     
     
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    ypsylon
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/07/29 00:14:31 (permalink)
    Well I know all of that, using Adaptec controllers since early 1990s and until X99 it was smooth sailing. 
     
    Ctrl+A and I can configure pretty much any card in my sleep.  I don't run controllers in UEFI mode, only Legacy. UEFI is pain in the backside and at least on Classy it doesn't really work all that good (well it works properly but verbose is non-existent and for ~30 seconds I have no idea if controller booted or not until Windows loading screen appears - extremely unsettling).
     
    I was working with SCSI and SAS many years ago. I simply forgot about that as it doesn't really matter unless you run mission critical applications. I went SATA long time ago and never going back to SAS drives. With HGST and WD drives I've never run into a single problem. All HDDs bought in like past decade still working. By now I moved away from HDDs (I have two external enclosures, but these are only as cold backup). My main rig is full of SSDs and that is also not going to change - system POST is literally 50% (30s vs 60s) shorter than with hard drives.

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    FM3001
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    Re: Kaby Lake vs windows 7 on Z270 FTW K 2017/08/12 18:01:29 (permalink)
    Well another 2 weeks have gone by. Sent the controller to Microsemi/Adaptec and they sent me another under warranty. Same thing - "no logical drives found" etc... Since abandoned trying to install Windows 7 (way to many problems and I can't get through the xHCI issue). Went and got a retail W10 on USB. But I have also learned a lot and sorted out all the individual problems to get this issue down to what I believe is the core problem.....and that I am saving for a new thread as this one is no longer applicable. The new thread is "Adaptec 1000 series SAS UEFI incompatibility with EVGA UEFI". See you there.
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